I think that the sin of envy isn't awakened because:
Elluka and Irina is inhabiting Kayo's body in the name of Ma, Every Deadly sinner died,except for Kayo
in order to awaken the sin of envy is the demise of kayo's body
I think t5hat the sin of lustisn't awakened because:
Gammon Octo is a descendant of the duke ,Every Deadly Sinner did not had any descendants except for gallerian and sateriajis but gallerian's daughter died withy his wife making the bloodline discontihued
in order to awaken the sin of lust is to discontinue sateriajis's bloodline
My theory is that it is because the Venom Sword and Kayo's Scissors don't have their demons inhabiting them.
In Wiegenlied, Elluka notes how the Demon of Lust just vanishes from its vessel and there is never an explanation given for it. While I have not read Praeludium or Praefatio, I am certain when Elluka gives it back to Keel Freesis that the sword was still empty (otherwise she wouldn't have given it back).
Since the Demon of Gluttony seems to be aware of its own inevitable awakening as the Master of the Graveyard, I am going to assume all the Demons of Sin are trying to reach their point of awakening for whatever reason. Also, since the vessel of Lust's magic is "weak" without its Demon inhabiting it, I am going to assume all their power comes from the Demon.
As for Kayo's Scissors, I am still uncertain but it is possible that there are two pairs of scissors, one which Kayo used that had the Demon of Sin in it, and the pair Gallerian collected.
The theory of the two pairs of scissors is indeed interesting (since they were before the Twin Swords of Levianta, it seems logical that they later became, thanks to Chartette reforging them, two others "weapons" (each one becoming a pair of scissors)). This being said, there are two cutting parts in a pair of scissors, so Mothy could have thought that each blade could just replace the former Twin Swords.
An other point is that Ma could just, with her power, like "control" the Demon of Envy to keep him sleeping. We saw after Twillight Prank that Elluka could remove the Demon of Gluttony from little Rilliane, wich induce some strong magical power (even if it was to the cost of the little girl's memories). Since Elluka and Irina are reunited, we can assume she is now, at least, two times more powerful than before, and so she could have gained the capacity to refrain the influence the vessel (and the Demon) could have on her, that way keeping her mind clear to achieve her goal, and not turning into a awakened vessel controlled by sin.
I am a little more skeptical at the prospect. Ma doesn't seem to have any motivation to keep the Demon of Envy sleeping. She is trying to collect and awaken the vessels, not keep them sleeping. Unless there is some reason that she needs to be the replaccement, I don't see it happening. Evils Court's booklet notes how agitated she is getting over not finding the vessel of Wrath.
On your note, it may be possible that Ma already sealed the scissors to surpress the Demon and known of the inhabitants can tell. Still, I feel twisted on this because I feel the lack of a clear "why" in this case makes the prospect difficult for me to believe.
Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry, I thought I was clear, my bad. What I meant as for the "why", is that Ma'd like to keep her mind clear. Indeed, what I understood (and I can be wrong on that) about awakened Vessels, is that after his awakening, the Demon of the Sin takes over the body of the person possesed by the Vessel. Since Ma has a clear habit of manipulating the people/entities around her to achieve her goals, it seems unlikely to me that she would allow the Demon to awake, and that way taking her body, (and if not, since she can probably swap body),at least putting her apart from the little "Circle of the Sins" (reuniting all the Vessels/Sinners and so the potential protagonists of the Last Judgement/End of the World). It is quite easier to just keep the Demon asleep during the search for the vessel of Wrath (and maybe the awakening of the Vessel of Lust).
It is currently unknown what exactly the "awakened vessels" are. The most popular theory seems to be that they are reincarnations of their sinner although the logic behind that is sketchy and inconsistent with the known awakened vessels. The issue I have with your theory is that Ma is using the body of the sinner but the sinner's body never commited the sin.
By the time Kayo comes under the Demon of Envy's influence and commits the sin, she was already inhabiting Lukana's body and Elluka (or possibly already Ma at this point) was already inhabiting Kayo's body. Therefore, your theory would then implicate that Lukana's body would be possessed instead, not Kayo's, leaving no risk to Ma's life. That's at least how I see it, unless I am missing something.
Oohh ! So that's what I missed ! (the Lukana-Kayo-bodies thing) OoO
Well, it is never to late to learn, so I'm glad you teach me that !
Actually, this is the first time I read this explanation. Before, all I saw was about Elluka (and not Ma) making Kayo commit the sin, taking her body afterwards, and then being somehow reunited with Irina etc... hum, yeah, pretty outdated. Ah.. that's my fault, through. Following Mothy series for more than a year and a half, I never really looked that deep into it (I kept following the vids, reading the comments and wiki time after time, looking at Closure of Yellow but not that much).
Well, with what you added, it's clear that my theory cannot be right anymore. But then, do we have any clue about what happened with the Vessel of Envy/the Demon ? And also what happened with Lukana's body ?
It is alright, reading and understanding all the information takes a lot of time. Based on the Evils Kingdom booklet, there is a confusing bit of information that makes it hard to fully understand everything so we have only kept the bare minimum for now until it is fully understood to us all the information.
To give a basic summary of at least my understanding of the passage, it is narrated that (because Elluka's bodies eventually do begin to decay) she was seen in Kayo's area and at some point met or at least saw Kayo, becoming envious of her beauty (not sure if she had the scissors or not in her possession). Afterward, there is the confusing part about her swapping bodies with her and then giving her the scissors and burdening her with the Demon of Envy, although there is the confusing mention of her also taking another pair of scissors.
As I have said before, my theory is that the scissors Gallerian had were either this "fake" pair of scissors or the real pairs that has the vessel of Envy absent from it, due to the fact that there seems to be a similar situation with the Venom Sword.
It is not so much that the information is outdated, just that there is no clarification of when Ma was "formed" exactly. If it was in EC 611 at the battle of Marigold Plateau like it is heavily speculated, then it is more likely that Ma was the one who actually swapped bodies with Kayo and collected the scissors. The current amount of infomration leaves the story at this period too murky to properly interpret it.
As for what happened to Lukana's body, I assume it was buried under Kayo's name but then again, we know not what happened to Kayo.
I think that Gallerian collected the wrong pair of scissors but that doesn't matter because Ma already has the correct one's or at least that's what I got from the Evil's Court booklet. Because here it says
"With that, Elluka traded with Kayo her body.
Elluka burdened her with a “Deadly Sin” and later generations got a pair of scissors.
Kayo got Lukana’s body and a fake pair of scissors.
However, it was too late.
At that time, Kayo had been already to the depths of the spirit consumed by sin."
Which pretty much I believe means that Kayo was in possesion of the Scissors that housed the Demon of Envy and Elluka then took her body and gave her Lukana's along with the false scissors. Although by that point it was already too late and that even though Kayo no longer wielded the Scissors of Envy her soul was already tainted and taken over by the Demon. So Ma currently has the correct scissors already they just aren't awakening.
Now I mean the reason why could be several reasons. One of which could be that there is no soul to inhabit it besides Lukana or Kayo. Which we have no idea what happened to them. I mean it could be a very big possibility that Lukana will become the human soul to inhabit Kayo's scissors but I mean my theory for the awakening is when the Demon's Soul and a Human's soul both take over the vessal. Now of course the part of this is that I mean when it comes to the human soul the vocaloids have to match. You know what I mean. Like only a Miku can awaken the Clockworker's Doll and only a Gakupo can awaken the Venom Sword or whatever the Demon of Lust inhabits now.
So I believe the reason that Kayo's Scissors and the Venom Sword haven't awoken yet is because there is no soul to combine with the Demon's to awaken Kayo's Scissors and the Venom Sword won't awaken because it isn't the Vessal of Lust anymore.
That's an interesting theory but it does have some flaws. For one, there is no implication of a character's soul possibly inhabiting the Clockworker's Doll. You can make the argument for Waiter and maybe the Master of the Graeyard or GEAR, but the Master of the Court doesn't appear to hold any soul but her own, if the awakened vessels even had souls. The second flaw, is that you claim it is a "big possibility" but cite no reasoning for why you suspect that. It sounds like a shot in the dark to me.
I also don't see why both vessels need to have different reasons for not awakening. I may be wrong, but it seems more rationale that they would not awaken for the same reasons, not different ones. We know that the Demon of Lust had left the vessel and hasn't been noted to have returned. We also know that Elluka took the scissors, leaving a fake pair for Kayo while the Demon of Envy possessed her. I think it's self-evident that the only signifigant similarity the two vessels shares (appearing to have their Demons absent from them) would imply that to be the reason.
The only matter on contention with this theory is that the specifics on this switch-aroo is not made clear. Was Elluka possessed but the body switch left the Demon in Lukana's body with Kayo or did the Demon simply choose to jump to Kayo after the switch took place? Was Elluka even aware she was possessed and that Kayo was then possessed? Was she already Ma at that point and somehow never noticed? Did she even care because she planned on being the replacement for the awakened vessel anyway?
I find it hard to believe, if Ma wanted all the vessels to awaken, that she would have allowed Gallerian to collect all the vessels and never notice their Demonns were absent. Still, the details are too hazy in my opinion to make reliable speculations on that subject.
I agree and my theory on the human and demon souls is just sort of there I guess and the soul within the Clockworker's Doll is Michelle's. Which I get that from how Master of the Court is very open to Gallerian and easily accepts him as her father. Which I know the reasoning for that can also be that well it's because Gallerian always treated the Doll like a daughter which works as well. When it comes to the switch it would make sense for the Demon to have been with Kayo's soul so when the switch happened and Kayo's soul was put in Lukana's body it took the demon along with it into Lukana's body leaving Kayo's with only Elluka's soul.
And Ma does want all the vessals to awaken but it could be she doesn't know that the Demon is no longer in the sword which is HIGHLY unlikely but she does know that Kayo's Scissors still have the demon within them it just isn't waking up for whatever reason. Whether it be there is no "Luka Soul" or it just isn't.
I still hold very closely to the thing that the Sin of Lust has no vessal right now which I find interesting because people were confused that the Venom Sword bloomed into the Flower in The Resounding Song but it makes sense if you go with the Venom Sword no longer being the vessal and that Lust has returned to it's original form till it finds a new vessal.
There's a difference between wanting the vessels to be assembled and wanting them to be awakened. While the two can be synonymous, it is made implicit that the awakenings of the vessels is not necessary as they are only mentioned as needing to be "assembled" and the fact that Ma and Gammn act as "replacements" for them not awakeninng. This makes the need for a soul to be fused for the vessel's awakening in your theory a little shaky for me.
You also are saying Ma not knowing as "HIGHLY unlikely" but don't cite anything to prove or implicate that notion. I haven't seen or heard anything of the sort concerning what Ma knows or doesn't know about the vessels of Lust and Envy and their awakenings.
The sin of Lust having no vessel is, as I said, self-evident with the information we are given. It's Demon left it and has never been mentioned as coming back. I have said this all before here, discussing the issue.
Ma is the one who sealed it and knew that the Demon of Lust is not there. That's what I meant when it's highly unlikely that she knows the demon isn't there. Which was my own failing of word use.
I guess another reason I found there is still a hint that she may still believe the Venom Sword is the vessal is because she is mainly focused on locating the Golden Key. So I mean there may actually be no reason behind it but still I guess I find it odd.
No need to apologize. We are debating a topic, not insulting eachother's mothers while kicking one another's dog. You are simply misunderstanding my point. It is not that I don't understand what you are saying, I am perfectly capable of reading; I am asking you to cite where you are getting your information from that leads you to declaring something "likely" or "unlikely" as if it is some obvious fact that gives that implication.
Regardless, I found the point of contention:
AsukaHanyuYay wrote: Ma is the one who sealed it and knew that the Demon of Lust is not there.
You are under the presumption that Elluka and Ma are the same character using a different name, which is the foundation your multiple assumptions constructing your theory is built upon. That is not the case.
Ma is not Elluka and they are not the same character, at least as we have come to understand with the song Blood-Stained Switch and mothy's comments explaining it. Since you do not seem to be aware based on the above quote, I will summarize: Elluka sealed the Venom Sword and later found out the demon was absent; Ma is the combination of Elluka and Irina akin to their original form "IR" or "her" from BSS (not to be confused with I.R. or Abyss I.R., one of Irina's aliases).
Oh yes I am very aware of Ma being the combined form of Irina and Elluka. But just because she is not the same person it can be assumed that Ma shares the memories of both Elluka and Irina. It's only an assumption but it does not seem far-fetched to believe that Ma would still retain her memories of before Elluka and Irina became one person again.
Then I am moving onto the next point of contention, your actual explanation:
AsukaHanyuYay wrote: I guess another reason I found there is still a hint that she may still believe the Venom Sword is the vessal is because she is mainly focused on locating the Golden Key.
This is a weak argument. Her focusing on the Golden Key lends nothing to directly hinting that she forgot the Venom Sword was still empty. This also goes against your previous point that it is highly unlikely she doesn't know that the Venom Sword is not the vessel. With the "replacements" for the unawakened vessels already in place, this throws doubt over Ma wanting and/or needing the vessels to awaken, especially if she is somehow unaware they are not actually capable of awakening due to not having their Demons.
She is never described as bothered by this. She is only described as agitated because the last vessel hasnt been found yet. She's more concerned with having them all together and the awakening is never mentioned. I could be wrong but it just seems to be a convoluted scenario that does not conclude with a viable answer. I have to respectfully disagree, I think it's wrong.
Now I guess let's throw out them awakening from the equation and just focus on her collecting them so that she has all 7 objects together. She wants them all together but this still ties into the demon being gone. And that is that if the Sin isn't present in the object then what's the point of collecting it. Without the demon the Venom Sword is completely useless not even from an awakening stand point but from without the Sin it's nothing but an ordinary sword. So I guess it still bothers me that she is not at all agitated at the Venom Sword being empty. But it could be that it being a vessal in the first place is enough to fufill the requirements but I'm iffy about it.
And also I respect your right to disagree and sorry if it's hard to understand what I'm saying because I tend to be very scattered in my thinking and sometimes what I write doesn't even make sense to me.
No need to apologize. I am just pointing out the disorganized thought process and self-contradiction to help refine your thinking and theory to something that "makes more sense" if that makes sense (in other news, redundancy is redundant). You are thinking and formulating possibilities, which is a positive trait.
I agree with this to an extent. I wouldn't say it's completely useless. Elluka notes that the sword's magic was "weak" when the Demon was absent so there was something there, just nothing signifigant compared to when the demon was present. Whether or not that is enough magic for her plans, I can't say.
The crux here is that we don't know what Ma is planning. It's all but confirmed she has her own agenda, but she isn't sharing the details, just letting everyone else do the work for her. The issue you have with her "not being bothered" by the Sword and (in my opinion) the Scissors being devoid of a demon is because you are thinking with the mentality that she needs them to awaken in order to fulfill her plan. We can't make that assumption.
When the wiki polled a while back what we thought would happen when all the Deadly Sins were assembled, I firmly stood in the "nothing" corner. Ma is the only one to have mentioned this wish that can turn Hell into a utopia if you collect the sins, which only adds to my wariness with her reaction to Gammon's dream. I feel neither Hell nor utopia will result from their gathering, they will just be seven magical objects brought back together.
To be honest I feel that something will happen that will be huge but not because they are collected together but because they will all be in a confined space with the person there being able to wield all 7 sins. This could be why IR took on the name Ma when she became one again. It's because she will become the MA of Evillious which is what both parts of her had desired. It's just now with both Irina and Elluka as one they can both realize what they both wanted but together I guess.
Just pure speculation but who knows maybe there was some truth to Gammon's dream but again just pure speculation.
Hard to determine since we don't know the mechanics of her recombination with Irina. For all we know, they become a new soul alltogether. I still stand by my theory, the demons are both absent from the vessels. Reinforcing this, the Demon of Gluttony is depicted as Master of the Graveyard in here, which I think strengthens the idea that the demons are a key component in the vessels awakening.
22.214.171.124 wrote: I think that the sin of envy isn't awakened because:
Elluka and Irina is inhabiting Kayo's body in the name of Ma, Every Deadly sinner died,except for Kayo
in order to awaken the sin of envy is the demise of kayo's body
I think that the sin of lust isn't awakened because:
Gammon Octo is a descendant of the duke ,Every Deadly Sinner did not had any descendants except for Gallerian and Sateriasis but gallerian's daughter died withy his wife making the bloodline discontihued
in order to awaken the sin of lust is to discontinue Sateriasis's bloodline
For me, In order to make the vessel to awake is another's death. The Venom's Sword didn't awaken cause Sateriasis didn't kill for Lust. The Glass of Conchita awoke because of Banica's action. The Mirrors too, Riliane cause the Green-Hunting making it awaken. The Doll awoke because of the Gift. Kayo's Scissor didn't awaken because of either a fake pair or only one scissor was retrieve by Gallerian. The Spoon awoke because of the war.
One huge hole in that theory: Sateriasis slaughtered the entire Ferdinand estate and is implicitly responsible for Lolan Eve's sudden death.
Likewise, the scissors portion is based only on the continued validity of Ma's words, who's been proven inaccurate in all previous cases. Not to mention, there being two scissors and no clarification on which or how many were swapped out adds more doubtful circumstances there.
Methinks "awakened" vessels refers to souls inhabiting the vessels that have been warped in some way to be like that of the demons. Banica supports that. Plus Gear, if he's Adam, could be a part demon himself due to the exposure to Seth and Grim the End's power.
Likewise, I think Lust and Envy aren't awakened because there aren't any entities inside of them.