• So! Now that everyone is Shook from the Original Sin Story novel, it's a good time to look up and take notice of the fact that mothy's series actually has a lot of mature content on it that should probably be tagged/warned against, especially considering there are a lot of fans who come in from the Vocaloid fandom which is imo more kid friendly on the whole.

    I figured this thread was just gonna be a matter of settling on what media pages should be tagged and how, but MoonlightAbsol has brought up that there's more than just a matter of what we personally feel should have warnings on it, but a matter of Fandom's Terms of Use to consider as well, especially in regards to the way it's been affecting the Vocaloid and Vocaloid Lyrics wikis. Also you're right it was the Vocaloid Lyrics wiki I was looking at where the Venomania song page is still there

    I admit I'm not well versed on that, though I have looked over the Terms of Use before (it didn't discuss in depth how to handle mature series content > >;) I'd figured we could adopt the Vocaloid Wiki's standards of tagging explicit content and leaving any potential NSFW content off pages. 

    Thoughts? Any insights from people on wikias more immediately affected by this?

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    • I am not much in agreement to the idea of leaving NSFW content off of pages if the content is an actual part of the story. I feel like there should be warnings at the tops of pages though like there are for pages that are under maintanance 

      I think just a box at the top of some pages with a general message like  Warning: This page contains mature content and references to mature content Contains: XXX, XXX, and, XXX

      Just something like that. 

      I think the whole wiki itself should have a warning on the main page for graphic depictions of violence or there would be warnings on every page lmao.

      Big things I think need tagged are incest mentions, rape mentions, just some of the more hard hitting stuff that you don't see all the time in mature content media and just adding them to pages like Ma, Gallarian, Venomania, etc. 

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    • I went through the EC cast list and picked out all the big triggering topics that are touched upon throughout the series. This list could probably be narrowed down a bit, but I think it might serve as a good baseline for discerning which topics we should consider flagging:

      • Abuse of a disabled person
      • Child murder/death
      • Child sexual abuse
      • Drugging with sexual intent
      • Eating disorders
      • Extreme child abuse/neglect
      • Forced impregnation
      • Graphic depictions of violence
      • Hate crimes/Race-based violence
      • Incest
      • Parallels to sensitive real-life events
      • Pedophilia/ephebophilia
      • Physical/mental intimate partner abuse
      • Rape/dubious consent
      • Religious abuse
      • Slavery
      • Suicide
      • Violence towards queer people
      • Violence towards sex workers
      • Violence towards women
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    • Well in regards to the NSFW thing, it goes against Fandom's Terms of Use so I don't think that's really up for debate. 

      To be clear, by NSFW I mean things that are sexually explicit or graphically violent, not just mentions of mature content. For example, the Flower of the Plateau media page features an instance of female nudity that, though stylistic, is nonetheless probably going to be taken off by the end of this discussion (it's why the video is rated R18+). If mothy ever got to a point of actually describing sexual acts in his lyrics instead of just using innuendo, that would also be something we would need to keep off the wiki. I imagine it'd be the same deal if mothy ever had Conchita's meals' cooking process visually depicted too. There are already a few illustrations that might be pushing it.

      What I'm unsure about is what TOU restrictions draw the line at; if innuendo, mentions of mature subject matter, and censored-out-graphic-content is okay to just slap warnings for or if that's also something we're going to need to cut down on. I'd like to not outright remove any media pages but that's why I'm hoping someone with more knowledge on the subject can help out here.

      Otherwise imo your suggestions are fine, a warning on the main page and header warnings on other articles as deemed appropriate are exactly what I'm thinking.

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    • Bumping this just so it doesn't get lost. If this isn't a really pressing issue for most people I think I'm just going to adopt whatever of the Vocaloid/Vocaloid Lyric wiki's practices are appropriate, since wikia is advertising their new terms of use and I'm not seeing a lot of clear guidelines relevant to this outside of "nothing pornographic." I'm not great with legalese though which is why if someone does have deeper knowledge of this please bring it up Plus they have templates and stuff in place already, codingwise > >

      I do now have the knowledge that if we have too much nsfw content on here we could get edit-locked! (presumably because of googling purposes, I believe that was a big thing on the trope site too.) So I'm gonna at least remove the gallery image from the Flower of the Plateau page just to be safe.

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    • Thank you much for bumping this, as I never actually saw it until today, which is kinda important considering I was the one who brought it up in the first place.

      To start I'm gonna piggyback off what Octo said, about how the guidelines really only mentions pornographically specifically, and copy/paste the rest here:

      • Post or transmit any content that is obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive, profane, or otherwise violates any law or right of any third party, or content that contains homophobia, ethnic slurs, religious intolerance, or encourages criminal conduct;

      Reminder that this is under the user content section, which states that "You agree not to: [do any of the things listed below]". I think that since we're working with a fictional universe that opeartes differently than our own (for the most part), we really don't have to worry about the majority of those being a ban-worthy issue. 


      Not counting the sex-related stuff, because it's a whole other deal, I'm not sure how the guidelines would translate into summarizing novel/song content. While almost nothing in it is abusive/offensive to any real-life, specific person/people or ethic group, they are still topics that are bought up with an EC twist and should have a warning regardless, as not only are they not appropriate for younger audiences, but they also are potentially triggering, specifically that in the abuse realm. I would need to contact a fandom mod, and while it would be great help figuring out how these somewhat vague guidelines translate... I also don't want to risk opening the floodgates and scrambling en masse to delete or edit entire pages that we've spent the past near decade working on.

      In that regard, at least for now, I am also going to suggest following the VOCALOID wiki's model. I don't know what that will mean for our good friend Venomania at the moment, due to, again, like Octo said, mothy's writing is more innuendo and suggestion than outright explicitly heavy and graphic. It's something that should be clarified, and I can't even look to the other Voca wikis for said clarification due to the page being nonexistent on one and fully intact on the other. I feel like it shouuuuuuuuuld be ok lyrically, but in terms of the PV? Will certainly have to be marked, hands down. I'm not a lawyer though, so don't quote me on it.

      I am going to use Conchita as a quick example, as her song page on VOCALOID wiki has the following header:

      "This subject has mature content, such as: Cannibalism and other grotesque scenes, view at your own risk.

      Discussions for mature content are here and more subjects categorized [here]."

      Its lyrics are fully intact. Same with Enbizaka, with replacing 'cannibalism etc' with 'Violence, Muder, Gore.' I don't know how to input a header like that at the moment, but I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to get someone to just copy it over from voca wiki onto a random page and then we can do it from there on out.

      I've sort of lost my train of thought now, so that's all for the moment.

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    • For now I'm trying copying over the explicit template from the Voca lyrics wiki 0o0/ removed the little paragraph bit about not hosting explicit lyrics cause not all of our works pages are songs pages, but if there's a more inclusive way to word that bit we can add it back in > >

      We actually seem to already have a simple template for questionable content, so we can use that as well (tho I'm unsure what would be questionable vs explicit just from looking at how the Vocaloid lyrics wiki uses it, unless it's just like the depth of the work's discussion on the topic?)

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    • I want to say it's the discussion depth as well as overall content, but don't quote me on that. For example, Judgment on voca wiki is listed as just 'questionable,' while Muzzle is explicit. Judgment doesn't do anything overly explicit; it mentions 'hey this guy was a murderer he should get capital punishment but nahhhh' and our favourite judge going to hell, which is probably why. Muzzle on the other hand has outright violence, like Nem saying she shot herself and basically asking gally how he wants to die, followed by killing him, etc.

      basically i think it's just the sliding scale of if violence is just mentioned, if there is, how much, and if it is actually carried out/performed by the singer or not OR if it is present in those forms in the PV or not.

      EX. DoE mentions violence and has a questionable tag. It has bringing ruin to Elphegort, Riliane's execution. It has these topics, but doesn't go into depth, nor is it told from a first person perspective. It doesn't have any pictures depicting these events in the PV, either. 

      Meanwhile, you have the other culprits of Enbizaka and Muzzle, both of which have mature tags. Enbizaka has the singer going around murdering people, mentioning at one point how they've been killed and her scissors are stained red. Muzzle as I mentioned earlier, has nemesis actively killing gally, asking him how he will die, saying she tried to kill herself, etc. Not only are these eventions mentioned lyrically, but they are also shown in some manner in the PV illustrations.

      Tale of Abandonment is marked as questionable despite featuring murder, because, like DoE, it is not mentioned "I killed this person," but rather, typical hansel and gretel story stuff about throwing a witch into an oven that pretty much everyone knows about. Yes, it's a kid's story, but it's not exactly kids content, nor is it outright gory or anything. After killing adam and eve, the lines are just "i defeated the witch/witch's henchman,' which implies murder, but doesn't explicitly *say* it. While it does have that adam/eve death picture, it is overall simplistic, symbolic, ties into the children's story, and hard to make out if you aren't paying attention. I believe the reason this song doesn't have an explicit tag is because 1. it's not mentioned or shown in depth in the lyrics/PV, and 2. It is basically a carbon copy of the Hansel and Gretel children's story, which is a popular children's story that is still told to this day and nearly everyone knows about.

      I've come to realize that most of this probably doesn't make any sense, as I'm not good at explaining things...

      SO I think our best bet will be just to copy what Vocaloid wiki says about the songs, and have it included on their song pages that have lyrics posted, at least for now.

      In terms of non-song pages, I think something akin to a spoiler tag would work. Some wikis have on pages before certain paragraphs have "the following section contains spoilers, proceed at your own risk," and then after it is over saying "spoilers end here." I feel like a tag like that could be added before anything overly violent, or something. I know I bring up Loki Freezis as an example a lot, but it's just because he's really easy lol. So like, for example, before the part that mentions he hunted, killed, and stuffed his slave, it would be like "the following section contains mature themes: violence, slavery, racism, whatever, etc." Nemesis when she tries to kill herself can be like "this section contains [...] violence, suicide attempt." Something like that, maybe.

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    • You're making a lot of sense, really 0o0/ I think you're right, it seems it's about the amount of exposure to the content covered as much as it is said content. Like, if someone watching would be outright told/shown this is happening or if it's being hinted/heavily hinted. Another odd example to me (which is admittedly non-ec) was "Kilmer", which is marked as questionable instead of explicit; among other things it has sexual slavery and two murders as part of the video's plot, but I guess it's not "explicit" because the lyrics aren't expositing the events of the story and these things are just offscreen or only alluded to in the pv. 

      So basically yeah following their judgment seems best for now.

      The spoiler tag thing (I've seen it on other wikis too) is a pretty good idea, but it might be a little harder to execute. I vaguely recall that our previous attempts to make spoiler tags (though that was for reasons of page length) didn't go so well. It also assumes that the questionable elements of a character history are sectioned off from the not-so-questionable ones.

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    • I think we should just place a banner (maybe a modified WIP template) at the top of each page that lists off all the questionable subjects touched upon in the following article. It'd be easier than clogging up the pages with warnings for every individual section.

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    • I wouldn't know how to code that, but I like the idea of just having a banner at the top of the page.

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    • We can continue to discuss this but I'm just gonna go ahead and tag the songs by the Vocalyrics standard. Seems like no one objects to that. 

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    • sounds good.

      also i'm fine with just having a warning banner at the top of non-song pages, was sort of just spitballing ideas earlier. like yall know already, I'm not very active in terms of overall editing (and I don't know how to code either, although I should probably learn to help out with this type of stuff), so I'm most likely gonna go with whatever would be easiest for you guys, at least at the moment. 

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    • A FANDOM user
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