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  • GreekTelepath
    GreekTelepath closed this thread because:
    Resolved
    06:33, November 21, 2019

    Commented by Tobimisa:

    yooo, I'm pretty sure the person trying to change the trivia point is doing it because of, well, the obvious negative connotations with hitler combined with the fact that nemesis really Does have multiple inspirations. the line from the manhatten project is front and center in the master of the hellish yard, and it's a big part of her destroying the third period. and the destruction of the third period tying into the destruction of the first period with the implications of nuclear war is, a big deal in the re_birthday truth section of heavenly. if the choice is between the two then the manhatten project is the more thematically relevant option

    nemesis's name is derived from a jewish god and she's both born elphe, an outwardly marginalized race within evillious, and is naturally Mostly jakokuese/fantasy japanese. it's in poor taste to compare her to hitler so bluntly, especially while actively censoring mentions of her other inspirations when they're more prevalent.

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    • Reply by Scarletta Agni: 

      Nemesis is the Greco-Roman goddess of revenge? Idk how she can also be a god of a monotheistic faith unless you misspoke and meant something like an angel? Either way, I'm fairly certain Nemesis the Greek goddess outdates that version by thousands of years.

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    • I agree with tobimisa -- I don't feel like the wording that's currently being used really emcompasses all of Nemesis's references and who she is.  She has so much more, and I feel that taking away the references to that waters down and oversimplifies how trivia plays into how people view her character.

      Her actions aren't even in line with what Hitler is infamous for.  A lot of, if not most of, Hitler's infamy comes from the fact that he targeted very specific groups of people.  Nemesis never did that.  She destroyed the world in a vie similar to what people thought World War II would do to the planet, more or less enacted nuclear war with Amostia, and wasn't trying to create some perverted landscape where only certian people could exist -- she wanted to destroy everything, which is hardly the crux of Hitler's ideologies.

      I think that if we really want to get across the complexities of the references of her character instead of equating her to a figure who, honestly, I don't think she is like at all, the change to the trivia point would be doing Nemesis a lot more justice as a complex tapestry of references.

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    • 1. I feel that it's a little misleading to call Elphe marginalized in this context--what happened with Riliane was a single event, and it happened almost half a century before this point. They do face economic oppression from the Freezis Foundation, but this could be to provide similarities to Germany's own economic crash as a result of their WWI reparations.

      2. Being fantasy Japanese doesn't seem to have any impact on her racial experiences save for being a bonding point with Nyoze. She is treated as though she is Elphe and behaves that way too.

      3. Nemesis has multiple inspirations, it's true, but a large bulk of it has parallels to Hitler. This is not to say that she is being equated to him as a person, but historically that is where she fits (and note, while I am not a huge history buff and so don't know all of the facts in great detail, I suspect mothy didn't do a huge amount of research either). She spends time in prison, and becomes a popular figure during that time in prison (same as Hitler). She becomes the leader of the Tasan party, which campaigns on a platform of fighting a corrupt government and uplifting the Elphegortean people economically (which was something that the Nazi party used as part of their propoganda campaign). She is referred to as Fuhrer, which is specifically what Hitler was referred to while in power (and this part's kind of damning because who else could they mean?). The actions that Elphegort takes are clearly inspired by what Germany did in WWII, and she is the leader of it as Hitler was. She is not the Axis powers in general because there is no clear and obvious correlation to any figures in Italy or Japan that she specifically represents.

      It's like saying that Riliane is inspired by Marie Antoniette. They are not at all the same people (in fact I would say comparing them is a disservice to Marie) and there are points where they differ or take inspiration from something else, but this is the direct historical parallel mothy is making when it comes to the actual wrath event. I feel it's disingenuous to behave as though he isn't specifically saying that, even if it's in poor taste. The trivia point even brings up areas that she is not like him (such as not having an ethnocentric and racist ideology).

      4. I'm not sure what you mean is being censored? Octo did not remove any of the stuff added about Nemesis having multiple inspirations.

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    • true, @LordLykouleon, but isn't that what the personality section is for? this is a trivia point about her inspirations and references.

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      • If you think it's in poor taste to compare Nemesis to Hitler, take that up with mothy because the parallels are ludicrously hard to ignore and it's insulting to dance around the subject as though Hitler deserves special reverence, when we have a "lovable lech" character who is named after an infamous pedophilic serial killer and inspiration for a serial spouse-murderer and I've seen no complaints at all about that despite the fact that Gilles de Rais shows no particular inclinations down that road.
      • I agree Nemesis has more inspiration than just Hitler. This isn't a dichotomy. The reason why I cut down on the other references was because I had the mindset that they all be in the same trivia point, but I'm more than open to adding more trivia points to list the other individual parallels (in fact that would be better than putting a huge chunk of analysis on her trivia section.) This is something that could have been civilly discussed with me, but it wasn't, hence the ban.
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    • Nemesis's name has nothing to do with it. It's Levia. Levia, as in the creature from the Tanakh known as the 'leviathan'. 

      It is in extremely poor taste to compare a member of a minority group(particularly one that has had genocide committed against them) AND one who is literally named after a creature from the Hebrew bible, to Hitler.

      In general, it's in extremely poor taste to compare anyone to Hitler unless they're literally doing the same things as Hitler. Which Nemesis is not. It's particularly egregious to do this with fictional characters, and is extremely trivializing and disrespectful. There are Jewish people in the Evillious fandom who are upset and hurt by this. Namedropping Hitler so freely is not something that should ever be done.



      Your only real 'evidence' for your claims comes from the use of the term 'Fuhrer', which, while most famously associated with Hitler, is also simply a German word meaning 'leader' or 'guide' and was used for leaders of all kinds--and on top of that, though it hardly matters--did Mothy literally refer to her as 'Fuhrer', or could it have been translated in another way?

      You also claim that the invasion of Lucifenia is another 'reference', but in fact, Germany has invaded France more times than in just World War II.

      It's all completely circumstantial evidence, absolutely full of holes, and considering the 'case' you're trying to build with it is a harmful one, it should be set aside.

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      • Nemesis is not Levia, Nemesis is not a Jewish character and she is not Jewish coded. She is an ethnic german that mothy literally broke his own world's rules for to make an ethnic german.
      • Maybe in Germany the word "Fuhrer" is simply a German word, but mothy is not German. The entire Muzzle of Nemesis book is a big long WWII reference. Mothy uses the Japanese word for Hitler's title during this book and at no other time in the series does he refer to a leader of Elphegort with it. 
      • The evidence is enough by the standards of this wiki to conclude mothy is making a historical allusion to Hitler, regardless of whether or not mothy considered how this allusion might affect Western fans.
      • The trivia on Nemesis' page is pointing this out for the sake of transparency and clarity to the readers, not to harm anyone.
      • If you personally don't want to interpret the allusions that mothy made this way, that's perfectly fine. The wiki is not God. There's plenty of fans out there who don't abide by it anyway.
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    • Furthermore! The actions of Gilles de Rais have no effect on anyone today. The Holocaust and Hitler's actions still have an extreme effect on people. You're using false equivalence to try and prove the point that Hitler somehow doesn't deserve 'special reverence', when that's completely wrong. Hardly anyone even knows who Gilles de Rais is, yet Hitler is something nearly everyone knows. Why? Because his actions and ideology still permeate the world. de Rais, on the other hand, is largely forgotten.

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    • Excuse my interruption on the conversation, but isn’t Nemesis one of Levia’s reincarnation. That means Levia is Nemesis.

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    • It's true that his ideology still permeates the world. It's also true that there are people who buy into it out of ignorance and hatred. However, this does not change mothy's writing and it does not mean that it is better to have no discussion of Hitler at all anywhere ever.

      Nemesis was the character assigned with literally destroying the world.

      She also parallels (again, through her actions, not her ideals) the two most problematic figures in WWII (the effects of the Manhattan Project is also something that's still a problem today in the context of American imperialism; consider the fact that mothy, a Japanese man, made allusions through Nemesis to the ones responsible for bombing Japan.)

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    • @108.224.53.188 anon

      1: "Apparently there’s some kind of problem where native Elphe people in Aceid are having trouble getting work due to something related to the Freezis Conglomerate (having trouble reading that part but I think they have some kind of stranglehold on the jobs in the city? Or at least the ones that would make someone rich? And they have a policy to hire only non-Elphes). The Yarera Zusco conglomerate is a native Elphe business, but Freezis still basically owns Aceid. I think basically it’s explaining that “Zeus” is an accumulation of native Elphe children whose families were forced into the slums." - MoN Chapter 2

      it's outright stated in the novel that elphes are discriminated against based on their green hair, forced into slums, and have a difficult time getting work. in this context that is discrimination based on race, because it's been firmly established by the narrative of previous novels that race in evillious is represented by hair color. and let me remind you that the Freezis Conglomerate, at this moment in the narrative, own a slavery ring. yes this is likely a reference to the situation in nazi germany, which would make it a Direct reference to jewish people. which only strengthens the point I was making. 

      2: it has significance To Us as the audience because of the timeperiod and place. remember that japanese people were placed in concentration camps in America during world war II. that Should have thematic significance 

      3: first off, Fuhrer it a term for leader in germany in General. it's become associated with hitler retroactively yes, but elphogort Is based on germany.  but second of all, what's more thematically relevant to her though?  master of the hellish yard didn't feature quote from hitler, didn't feature her being called the Fuhrer, didn't feature any of his ideology, Nothing. her references to the atomic bomb are active, they're story defining, they're character defining, they center around her motivations as a person, they center around the Entire Plot.

      banica's motivations as a people eater directly conflate her with vlad the impaler, riliane's temperment and iconography associated directly with her in her songs stem from marie antoinette, nemesis doesn't share any of hitler's ideology, his motivations, his references to her could be taken out the plot would not change. nemesis who goes by the title president and uses punishment on jakoku followed by the rest of the world is the Same nemesis as the one we have in canon. it's window dressing while the manhattan project is essential

      4: octo removed several edits and then banned the user

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    • I think we need to consider the possibility that Mothy just didn't think very hard about the moral implications of basing one of his characters off of Hitler. The wiki is not the one who gave Levia a Jewish name and made her reincarnation the leader of the Axis powers, that was Mothy. I don't think we should start tearing each other apart over whether or not we should point out the fact that the creator of this series did something problematic.

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    • Again, the Manhattan Project and whatever else you believe is being referenced can be added in addition to the other parallels. It's not a dichotomy. So any other arguments to that effect I will no longer be addressing.

      Like... Nemesis didn't bomb Jakoku for the same reasons as in the Manhattan Project either, it was an accident. She didn't bomb the world ostensibly to stop the war she just wanted to kill everybody.

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    • 1. It's not just the Jewish people that were economically suffering in Nazi Germany. The entire German people were suffering. And the slavery ring was not of Elphe people, it was of Black Valkyria people (which I point out not to imply it's any better, but that it has nothing to do with Elphe discimination). Like I said--they were facing economic discrimination, but this does not mean that they are meant to be equivalent to Jewish people

      2. In that time period Japanese people were also colonizing Korea and attempting to colonize China. That Japanese Americans faced racial oppression does not mean that Nemesis being Jakokuan is supposed to indicate she herself is marginalized or representing a marginalized group. mothy is a Japanese man. He is not looking at this from a perspective of what American fans will see.

      3. Are you reading the replies that people are making to this thread? (honest question--I know that sometimes people respond to stuff while I'm typing a long reply and so I miss things). Fuhrer is the word for leader, yes, but it is famous for being what Hitler was called--it is not used in any other context in the series (it is the Japanese word for fuhrer), and almost globally it is associated with Hitler (again--mothy is not German. He is Japanese).

      And, again--the song is not the only content that matters. The entire Muzzle of Nemesis novel had WWII references all over it, most of it having to do with Nemesis' rise to power as a dangerous political figure. Yes, if you took out the Hitler references, it would change the story.

      4. Octo rewrote those edits to incorporate the content that was added while still fitting trivia guidelines. It was not a back and forth of constantly taking out edits and then people putting them back in. The user was banned, as she explained, for edit warring instead of actually talking out why she thought the reverted edits were important.

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    • if you were fine with both being referenced then what was the issue? all of the different versions that were suggested referenced both.

      but like, nemesis didn't bomb the world to ethnically cleanse either, so I don't see how that point disregards the manhattan project reference? she outright quoted one of the lead scientists on the manhattan project in her song word for word, her usage in the context of punishment being dropped and the original in the context of the atomic bomb being dropped. that's not like, up for debate? and behemo would go on to reveal that the the first period ended form nuclear war while assisting allen in creating a world without the mistakes of the past. that's, very obviously thematically relevant, especially coming from the mind of a japanese man 

      it just outright is more important to the narrative than the hitler references 

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    • I'm going to show up for the first time here in a million billion years (which, yeah, hi) to point out that at least one Jewish fan of the series I know has very vocally complained about this particular part of the trivia section, and wrote a post about it on tumblr here. Others on tumblr have also weighed in on this point and the concerns involved here and here. If it absolutely has to be kept, it should be treated as one of multiple sources of inspiration, not the source of inspiration, especially since over time mothy seems to have backpedaled away from it a bit outside of "Nemesis is the boss of Elphegort during Evillious WWII" and has narratively put greater weight on the references to the atomic bomb instead. This isn't an issue of "mothy did a problematic thing", this is an issue of "the wiki is currently doing a problematic thing, or at the very least is being deeply insensitive about a problematic topic", and that's what's got people upset.

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    • Octo, please listen to Jewish fans on this. I'm in full agreement that the references to Hitler are in incredibly poor taste, and claiming her to be fully inspired by him should not be allowed on the wiki. I've seen new fans be antisemitic fully because they think it's okay to be, since "the wiki says this one is based on Hitler."

      This isn't a matter of whether something is quote unquote 'problematic,' its a matter of safety for fans. Also, she just straight up is not based directly on Hitler. Does she ever read from Mein Kampf in the story? Quote it? No. Does she quote the Manhattan Project's lead scientist? Yes. Does she parallel America's discovery of and subsequent destruction with nuclear bombs? Yes. I would argue that if not meant to represent America itself, she's meant to be a commentary on nuclear warfare being discovered immediately driving humanity to ruin. Ykno, Like A Japanese Man Might Write

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    • I will try to word this as clearly as I can:

      • I banned Ylimegirl for edit-warring. Ylimegirl's changes specifically removed one of Nemesis' parallels to say that she paralleled "multiple events in WWII" (without saying what they were.) It was an unnecessary change and I told them so, but they refused to discuss it with me and instead changed it back and swore at me.
      • I know I said I won't respond to this anymore but: I'm not saying that she isn't referencing the Manhattan Project, or that the Manhattan Project isn't important to the themes of the narrative. I mean to say that the parallel to the Manhattan Project does not take away the other parallel, which is, frankly, important to the plot beats of the novel. I will revise Nemesis' page to include them both with their own trivia points and make them as clear as I can.

      tbh before all this shit hit the fan I thought we did have that discussed on her page but it was just the song so that was my bad.

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    • 2602:306:8042:1180:B83E:2E51:4490:ABA6 wrote:
      Octo, please listen to Jewish fans on this. I'm in full agreement that the references to Hitler are in incredibly poor taste, and claiming her to be fully inspired by him should not be allowed on the wiki. I've seen new fans be antisemitic fully because they think it's okay to be, since "the wiki says this one is based on Hitler."

      This isn't a matter of whether something is quote unquote 'problematic,' its a matter of safety for fans. Also, she just straight up is not based directly on Hitler. Does she ever read from Mein Kampf in the story? Quote it? No. Does she quote the Manhattan Project's lead scientist? Yes. Does she parallel America's discovery of and subsequent destruction with nuclear bombs? Yes. I would argue that if not meant to represent America itself, she's meant to be a commentary on nuclear warfare being discovered immediately driving humanity to ruin. Ykno, Like A Japanese Man Might Write

      I'm sorry that there are fans who are using Nemesis to justify their hatred and bigotry. I will say right here and now that the wiki does not condone this in the slightest.

      But considering that Nemesis is, as I pointed out, a villainous (if complex) character that ends up murdering everyone on Earth, I don't see how it's dangerous to admit the parallels and clarify the differences between her and Hitler. She's not meant to be a role model. It's comparable to how Full Metal Alchemist's setting has parallels to Nazi Germany (complete with the Pride-sinned character being the Fuhrer dictator of that country too.)

      It's like.... if we have people who say rape is okay because Venomania is a rapist. That's clearly not the message mothy is going for. He outright condemns Nemesis' actions in the story's afterword.

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    • GreekTelepath
      GreekTelepath removed this reply because:
      Hostile
      06:29, November 21, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Also, apologies, but I will not be able to reply to this thread anymore tonight, as I have to get up early tomorrow.

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    • GreekTelepath
      GreekTelepath removed this reply because:
      Hostile
      06:29, November 21, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • @108.224.53.188 anon

      1: there Isn't Going To Be a clear cut example of who represents jewish people in this situation because There Was No Ethnic Cleansing. the fact still remains that nemesis' backstory intentionally mirrors that of jewish people at the time. and I didn't Imply that elphe were in the slavery ring, I mentioned it because we specifically know that the powerful family oppressing elphes are racist. there was an extremely significant plot point about them being racists in the previous novel. you can't say that they aren't a marginalized group when they're being marginalized by slave owners based on race in a context that compares them to jewish people in nazi germany.

      2: part of the greed and wrath novels, are Set In America. that's why I think it's thematically relevant, and I don't think it's insignificant that gallerian was hunted for sport by loki with loki shouting about how he's inferieor to him when he's canonically half jajokuese. I see no reason why mothy would make racism a key part of judgement's narrative, directly link wrath to judgement, directly tell us that nemesis is discriminated against for her race only for it to not matter at all thematically. "white passing" people of color still are affected by racism, so there's no reason why it should be different here

      2b: I didn't say the song was all that mattered, I very specifically made it clear how the references to the atomic bomb define the plot of the novels with the references directly comparing her to hitler could be removed and she'd still be the same character. the end of the world is the Point of the novel, you can't say that about nemesis being called Fuhrer

      3: I'm a slow typer my dude, can't help that but yes it would change the story, but would it change nemesis fundamentally as a Person? would it alter the plot beyond recognition? could you tell this story without her being referenced to hitler and still have the same themes? could you cut it into the novels that came before and after? you cannot have this novel, this Story without the reference to the atomic bomb, you Can have it without the hitler references 

      4: the person was editing them to comply with octo? they actively cut down the material to make it shorter. it wasn't until the last edit that they lost their temper, which I don't think is ban worthy. not that it's my call to make but it seems like too much for what actually happened 

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    • Tobimisa wrote:


      you cannot have this novel, this Story without the reference to the atomic bomb, you Can have it without the hitler references 

      Seconding this!! Tobi is right and he should say it

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    • Okay I'm back actually

      I'm going to say that I still don't completely understand the position, and I still don't agree that Nemesis's ethnicity is supposed to be based on Jewish people, but I also understand that that is a matter of historical debate that is perhaps beyond the scope of this wiki.

      I see that not a lot of people agree with me on this thread, and those that disagree feel very strongly about it. So I'm going to change the trivia to remove the reference to Hitler in favor of Nemesis' actions just paralleling the Axis powers more broadly.

      RedLadyDeath is right, it's not worth tearing each other apart. and I apologize if I have upset anyone or made anyone feel unsafe.

      Ylimegirl will remain banned because the ban was on the principle of it's better to discuss edits with an admin than to lose your temper and change them, but I will shorten the duration of the ban.

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    • Octofan
      Octofan removed this reply because:
      flame baity
      05:55, November 21, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Since when is America an axis power though?

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    • 75.104.185.25 wrote:

      But whatever you end up doing, the wiki's stance on this won't change. Not without conclusive, concrete evidence stating that Nemesis has nothing to do with Hitler.

      I'm gonna like... remove your comment because it's extremely hostile but too late man

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    • 2602:306:8042:1180:B83E:2E51:4490:ABA6 wrote:
      Since when is America an axis power though?

      Axis powers as in Nemesis is in charge of Elphegort (Germany), which allies with Jakoku (Japan) and Beelzenia (Italy). Axis powers. Ylimegirl included that in their trivia revision too.

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    • [whoops, the anon comment got deleted]

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    • The problem is that the way the wiki currently handles "the other parallel" is deeply insensitive and has put actual Jewish people in the fandom at risk. If it has to be kept it should be mentioned as an absolute bare minimum thing of "Nemesis has some slight parallels to this as ruler of Fantasy Germany during Evillious WWII", or otherwise should be run by actual Jewish fans who can check the revised trivia point for sensitivity. The actual heavy parallels are still on the references to the atomic bomb, not on the WWII Germany parts, and changing it to the Axis Powers in general doesn't necessarily solve things or put the emphasis on the references that actually matter.

      Also, since Octo brought it up, Fuehrer Bradley in Fullmetal Alchemist is the homunculus Wrath, not Pride, Pride is his son Selim Bradley. And Fullmetal Alchemist wasn't referencing WWII Germany either - while Hiromu Arakawa used Western aesthetics for the series, she was actually specifically inspired by the oppression faced by the Ainu people of Hokkaido in Japan, as well as interviewing Japanese WWII veterans. While Octo was probably talking about the 2003 anime rather than the actual manga, trying to compare these issues is very much apples to oranges.

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    • Octofan wrote: Okay I'm back actually

      I'm going to say that I still don't completely understand the position, and I still don't agree that Nemesis's ethnicity is supposed to be based on Jewish people, but I also understand that that is a matter of historical debate that is perhaps beyond the scope of this wiki.

      I see that not a lot of people agree with me on this thread, and those that disagree feel very strongly about it. So I'm going to change the trivia to remove the reference to Hitler in favor of Nemesis' actions just paralleling the Axis powers more broadly.

      RedLadyDeath is right, it's not worth tearing each other apart. and I apologize if I have upset anyone or made anyone feel unsafe.

      Ylimegirl will remain banned because the ban was on the principle of it's better to discuss edits with an admin than to lose your temper and change them, but I will shorten the duration of the ban.

      This looks like a resolution to me. I'm going to close this thread, and remove any replies that violate the community guidelines.

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