• I realize that now is a busy time, but I was working on a playlist for non-canon and alternate universe songs from mothy and working out how to classify them on my google doc when I noticed this.

    Both wendy and watching us have as much connection to canon as desert bluebird does, but desert bluebird has a page while they don't. 

    In the Court of Greed album (X) the lyrics for the individual songs are surrounded by the emblem for the country that the song took place in. desert bluebird has lucifenia and wendy has marlon

    Wendy and desert bluebird scans

    The Muzzle of Nemesis album (X) has a similar situation. The lyrics page for each song has a small number at the bottom of the pages counting down the years to the end of the third period, with Watching Us being the oldest at -4213 and Master of the Hellish Yard of course being 1

    Watching us and mothellishy scan

    We may not know their exact connection to the series but we know that wendy takes place in marlon and that watching us takes place 4213 years before Hellish and takes place before Blood Stained Switch (who's number is -2012). So they have a connection to the series even if we don't fully understand what that connection is.

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    • it's also worth noting that we have other songs that aren't clearly connected to the series or that we outright state aren't canon in the song category, like Screws, Gears, and Pride and South North Story. So they definitely wouldn't be out of place. 

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    • I think there should be pages for these songs too! It can be confusing to new fans to find out that something with ties to Evillious isn't on the wiki at all.

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    • DB, SNS and SGP still have more of a solid connection due to one featuring the symbol of Lucifenia in the PV, one featuring Riliane in a non-canon scenario and the other being apart of the Clockwork Lullaby Series. Regardless, I agree that even if these songs are just barely threaded into Evillious they could be included on the wiki as long as they are put as non-canon. 

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    • Non-canon as in "related to Evillious but not part of the official story" (which is why we have pages for Desert Bluebird, South North Story, and Screws, Gears, and Pride) is different from "unrelated to Evillious" (which is why we don't have pages for Wendy or Watching Us.)

      I can see the argument for Wendy (didn't know that the album implied it to take place in Marlon, I have a feeling that's just because Marlon is basically Britain but yee.) I dunno about Watching Us. The "year" connection feels too tentative to me. Bloodstained Switch's number is its release date, and 2012 can't be how many years it is before the end of the third period because Bloodstained Switch takes place roughly at the end of the Second Period, and the Third Period is only about 1500 or so years old (or am I misunderstanding the reasoning?)

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    • where does that information come from? I looked on the third period's page and the sentence it's mentioned in sources it to the pierrot and scp bonus story but that date isn't actually present on the page it links to. Price hasn't gotten to a full translation of the story yet and what she has doesn't mention the date sourced either. I would Assume the information would then come from the evillious side stories' translation of the short story, which isn't a reliable source to begin with, but it doesn't appear to be there either? The closest it gets to mentioning that number is the ghoul children being watched over by the Zorach family for 500 years. so that date isn't actually mentioned anywhere in the source given for it? at least not as far as I can tell.

      I also checked price's translation of the heavenly yard short story and the heavenly yard novel, since both of those cover the creation of the world, but no dice.

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    • it's also worth noting that the other dates on the album work just fine. for instance, muzzle of nemesis. if you take 999 and subtract it by 983 (gallerian's death day) you get 16, which matches up with the number at the bottom of the muzzle of nemesis page in the album

      Mon scan
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    • which actually, shouldn't torture tower doesn't sleep have an article too? since it's where amostia went with luna at the end of outlaw and lychgate

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    • mothy has directly connected three seeminly unconnected songs in the past couple years to the series and he's implied a few connections that we weren't aware of due to not having access to album booklets up until recently. maybe it'd be a good idea to make a section for mothy's other work so if (or at this point more likely When) we run into this issue in the future fixing it would be as simple as changing which category an article is in.  we could put it in the browse section with a drop down menu like the books option !

      obviously this isn't something we'd need to handle right this second but it's something that's worth considering

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    • The third period being around 1500 years is because Michaela is stated as being 1000 years old by the time of Daughter of Evil, which is around roughly 500 years into the EC calendar. Held also is a Millennium Tree, and he dies by natural causes around then too (so we can assume he's the same age). There might be another source but that's the one that comes to mind.

      I don't really mind one way or the other necessarily on the rest of this, but I will say, while I think it's prudent to have pages for content that mothy has linked to Evillious through albums and such, I also would like to avoid just adding all of his other works to the wiki just on the chance that he might connect them someday to Evillious. I feel like that's leaving the scope of the wiki a little bit. Even some of his works that have that clear connection are explicitly not Evillious works because they don't take place in Evillious (like Torture Tower--which has its own wiki--, Unlock City, and Story of Evil, for example). I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about them on the wiki (in most cases we already do), but I worry that having an attitude of having articles for all of his other work (rather than say a single article that discusses them and their connection to Evillious in brief) might be as confusing to fans as not talking about them at all.

      For example, while Masquerade is on the Evils Extra album, thus giving it a connection to Evillious, we have no context whatsoever to place it in Evillious canon or its conceptual work. We have no idea how it relates to the series at all (same goes for Double Jump). Even if we put "non canon" in the article category, most people are going to read the article and think it fits in somewhere. Given that this is the Evillious wiki, and not the mothy wiki, people are going to assume that what we have articles on is part of the Evillious series in some way.

      --To be clear, when I say things like this, I am also talking about things that already have pages, like Unlock City (and SGP, for that matter, given that it's claimed to be a separate universe from Evillious anyway). Unless we remove those articles, however (and I'm doubting that's the way this convo is going), then there's no real reason not to have pages for Torture Tower and the like as well, as they have the same level of connection (and indeed, as the TTDS wiki attests to, it makes more references to Evillious than the rest of them).

      So--ultimately, I could go either way on this, but I would like the wiki to be consistent about it.

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    • the assumption is that watching us takes place during the first period, not the second, which matches up with the themes of the first period's ultimate distruction being man-made. so it's perfectly within the bounds of canon to have watching us take place even several thousand years before michaela's birth in the second period, as the version of earth in the first period that creates the second is canonically set in the future and there's nothing within the song watching us itself that would place it in a futureistic setting. 

      and I do understand your point, but a single article covering All of the connected content has the potential to either become unreasonably bloated or strip down the information to avoid that issue. and what about the case of something like amostia? his character arc is Majorily told through the Torture Tower series, but he's decidedly an evillious character. his character page can only have information from evillious directly but without the context from the Torture Tower series you're missing most of who he is and what he does. 

      though I admit, some people don't read articles as thoroughly as they should. maybe something like a page for songs not affilliated with the series would be better? though in that case it defeats the purpose of the articles being easier to swap in when necessary

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    • though also now that I think of it, the second period simulated the full creation of the world itself didn't it? it had all of the countries on earth, the same history, etc. and the people who lived there didn't know their world was fake outside of sickle and behemo. and the nature of training ai is to create hundreds and even thousands of generations to complete the task you want it to in the way you want it to, and they did their job so well that they'd eventually created completely sentient ai. whether we assume watching us takes place in the first or second period it's still possible for it to have taken place long before michaela's birth, even if how they percieved the amount of time spent differently than, say, the first period scientists would.

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    • My point was that Bloodstained Switch couldn't take place at the date ascertained by using the numbers in the album because the "2012" number is about 500 or so years off from when the events of the song canonically take place (near the end of the Second Period). It looks to me like it only makes sense as being a nod to the song's release date. So therefore we can't say outright that every number is a year the song takes place in. Again though, I don't know if I'm misunderstanding the reasoning there.

      Masquerade and Double Jump were explicitly made for non-Evillious works, so let's not discuss adding them on the wiki right at this specific moment. This discussion of Watching Us and Wendy is different because of the argument that the albums are giving them a setting in the series even if not a connection to the rest of the canon.

      Which I don't know if that's really the case or if these were just additions to make them fit into the framing device of the album they were packaged in. I feel like it's probably not my place to judge that though, so if it is what people want (or if no one else cares enough to weigh in) I'd say sure we add song pages for them.

      I think potentially an argument to be made for not adding Torture Tower media stuff to the wiki while we have stuff for Story of Evil and Unlock City is that there is already a wiki for Torture Tower stuff. We can always direct readers to that other wiki's articles when necessary, whether linking to their media articles when Torture Tower is brought up on a non-story page or as a continuation of Amostia's article to handle the non evillious parts of his character history (idk Amostia as Amostia belongs more to TTDS than he does to Evillious, even if EC is his origin story.) But we'd probably need to ask the admin of that wiki if she's comfortable with that, and it could get messy so that's more of a suggestion.

      tdlr; not gonna say no to adding Wendy, I guess Watching Us too but mrrmhrrmarmgrumble don't know about Torture Tower.

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    • The Torture Tower wiki has loads of unfinished pages! Some important characters have a brief description of them and no history at all, and the main three girls have one brief paragraph each. I don’t think directing our users to an unfinished wiki when they want info about an Evillious-related series is proper.

      Also, the existence of other wikis doesn’t prevent us from existing; the wiki made for Story of Evil arc still exists. It’s just hardly used because this wiki has far more information, and more accurate info at that.

      I support adding other mothy works to this wiki, to ensure that the fanbase isn’t filled with misinformation from other sources.

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    • I mean, this is a suggestion under the assumption that the Torture Tower wiki will be finished at some point, because people have been actually working on it, if you care to look at the recent activity. I'm actually kind of offended at that statement because the, what, three or four? people working on that wiki have been working pretty hard considering they're basically adding over 3 novels' worth of info and coding the wiki from scratch 

      Also, the anon meant the Story of Evil series as in the book series titled Story of Evil , which is not an Evillious series, not the wiki related to the Daughter of Evil arc. obviously we don't care about the Story of Evil wiki because the contents are Evillious related. In an ideal world the Story of Evil wiki could be reworked into a Daughter of Evil series wiki that goes into more specifics than we do on the Daughter of Evil, but it's a dumpster fire so it isn't. 

      It's not possible to talk about Evillious without largely talking about Daughter of Evil, it is possible to talk about Evillious without talking a bunch about Torture Tower. Amostia is pretty much the only character that that's an exception to.

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    • oh wait sorry kjfdls I got mixed up for a second.

      michaela says that she's a thousand years old (or rather almost says it) before she's regained her memories of the second period, so when she says that she's 1000 years old she's saying that she's lived 1000 years as a bird, and that's an important distinction to make. 

      first it makes the gap shorter, with michaela being about 1000 years old at the halfway mark she'd be about 1500 years old by the world blowing up. but moreover, nothing says that held was planted or the souls were reborn immediately after sin made contact with the earth. they had to rebuild the earth after it was implied to have been blown up by nuclear bombs. so that'd mean recreating the world from scratch while also dealing with abnormal levels of radiation while trapped in the ark. they'd have to make the atmosphere livable before they'd be able to introduce animals at all. 

      we don't have a solid timeline for the first or second period as it stands, and even if the date is a reference that doesn't make it non-canon on it's own. there are plenty of canon facts about evillious that are already references. the very amazing green onion is still a canon item in the world even though it's a reference to miku's character item

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    • >-------> O..... Those are good points actually. I think it has to go on the assumption that the Second Period people found a way to slow or stop their own aging while they worked on the Earth, though. Which is possible, since they're able to make themselves into gods or something, though I think that particular part was after they died. And as you point out, that whole timeline is fuzzy in the end.

      I'm not happy about it dfkkfdkgskdf but I concede that yeah I don't have an argument against assuming the Watching Us number is its year.

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    • yeah ! at least two people on the ark knew how to create bodies that they could've inhabited. in fact we Know that levia and behemo were given a new body, albeit one that probably wasn't very helpful fkjdsl. but any assumptions that you'd need to make to justify them living that long would be the same assumptions you'd have to make to justify them being able to create anything after they supposedly died, as you mentioned 

      assumng we'd measure it by bt, since we don't have anything else to measure it with right now, watch us' canon year would be 3214 bt, since the numbers at the bottom of the pages were the number of years between the songs and the end of the third period

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    • I'm fine with creating pages for Watching Us and Wendy, given the above reasoning. If we do push through with making those pages, don't expect them to be up immediately though since we still have to deal with the material from Evils Extra.

      Also, just some corrections so we can avoid misinformation:

      • As far as we know, the Climb One crew were only trapped on the ship after it crashed as a result of their fight. They could leave the ship while they were making the Third Period, as seen in how they built labs on the ground world (Lunaca Labora and the one underneath Castle Hedgehog).
      • If you're referring to the dragon body Behemo made, I don't think it was made for the purpose of being a body for him and Levia. Behemo even refuses to use it, according to the Muzzle Ch. 7.
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    • We have scans of court of greed?

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    • I brought up the dragon body because it specifically proves that they were capable of transfering their souls to a separate body at the time since it presents a possible explaination for their extended life spans! I didn't mean to imply anything about the circumstances of the dragon body's implimentation or use

      though thank you for the correction about the ship !

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      We have scans of court of greed?

      Yes, here:

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    • A FANDOM user
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