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  • Hello everyone, 

    I had understand that mothy is reading a book about the Original Sin Story. 

    I want just now is that real or not ?

    Thanks for answer ^^

    Admin Message: This is a thread for discussing the new OSS Story novel by mothy titled Original Sin Story: Crime, released last December. As always, keep replies civil, productive and concise. When giving second-hand information, please link to a source, in order for there to be accountability.

    INFOMINE DIRECTORY

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    • Mothy made a poll recently asking people what kind of content he should make next. The OSS novel won. At this time it is uncertain when he will publish it. Mothy also said he's not sure if he will make more than 1 novel for the Original Sin Story.

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    • Yes, if Im not wrong the poll was about a new book, an album or a CD and more Banica content i think or maybe I just misinterpret the meaning.

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    • 8.47.97.31 wrote:
      Mothy made a poll recently asking people what kind of content he should make next. The OSS novel won. At this time it is uncertain when he will publish it. Mothy also said he's not sure if he will make more than 1 novel for the Original Sin Story.

      Ok Thank you 

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    • My wish-list for the OSS Novel is that there is only going to be 1 and I hope there will be a chapter about the first/second periods. I also hope we find out Gammon had previous past live(s).

      Lastly, I hope the novel somehow ends with Kiril and the real Elluka saving Irina from the court ending and live in the Fourth Period, though that's a stretch.

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    • This is pretty much old news, but I just thought it'd be prudent to compile all the information we have on the upcoming OSS novel(s).

      Mothy has posted a series of tweets, and I've had Price infomine them. They are as follows:

      Tweet 1

      • He wants to include some kind of music.

      Tweet 2

      • He's gonna use a music card rather than a CD.

      Tweet 3

      • He's not sure if he should put it in one volume or split it into different acts, and he also needs to think about who will be the protag since a lot of characters show up in it.
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    • Ok thank you, Greek Telepath 

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    • About that, he's just said that he might not have time to finish the upcoming novel. But he will absolutely release a new album.

      https://twitter.com/mothy_akuno/status/1136929155432321025

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    • It sounds like, from Google translate, he plans on releasing it, just not in time for summer? I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

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    • Mothy has tweeted, among other information, keychains for Adam, Eve and Meta.

      OSSKeychainAdam
      OSSKeychainEve
      OSSKeychainMeta
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    • They are cute Keychains! Though something I noticed is that there's gears in the background Adam's and Eve's ones, which aren't present in Meta's background, so I wonder if they'd be a hint or callback to Karma of Evil, though I might be just reaching and they're just decorations.

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    • On November 30, Ichika tweeted a sketch of a woman with a hairstyle to Hatsune Miku and has clothes similar to Irina. I wonder if that's supposed to be Maria Moonlit.

      Also as far as the protagonist goes, assuming there will only be 1 book, I think there won't be a central protagonist and the role will change from chapter to chapter.

      Edit: Here's the link https://twitter.com/ichi_ka/status/1200741033509654530

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    • Again, when referring to tweets, please include links. That's a rule we have around here.

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    • ELjxzD5U0AAOAEO
      Mothy's posted a part of the OSS novel cover. I assume it'll come out sometime in the next few months if the cover's been finalized.

      https://twitter.com/mothy_akuno/status/1204978765719146497?s=20

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    • I believe he's stated before that he intends to release it for winter comiket, unless I am mistaken.

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    • Is the Original Sin Story going to be split up into multiple books? The title seems to be Original Sin Story: Sin. If that's the case, the 2nd one would likely be called Original Sin Story: Punishment (mothy might pull an OSSCE and make a 3rd book have all chapters of the previous books plus a bons chapter wwww)

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    • Cover of the OSS novel was revealed as well as one of the illustrations. It looks like Gammon did incarnate as a person in OSS 
      Cover
      as well.

      Also based on chapter titles it seems this novel is going to cover Act 1 of OSS Source: https://twitter.com/mothy_akuno/status/1205381231619133441

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    • That or it's an ancestor.

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    • Porque no los dos?

      ...Wait, is that possible? Crap, I don't think they ever clarified if that was possible or not...now I'm confused...

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    • well ! it depends on whether or not the universe that we know was a part of the cycle or started it. working on the assumption that it is both, if maria was always a part of the cycle then that'd mean that gammon being one of his ancestors was likely always the case. however if the cycle was start with the events we see in canon then gammon being his ancestor would likely mess with his family's genes. we know that souls affect genetics in evillious so gammon being reborn into that body would affect the genetics of his children and so on. that or we're just not supposed to think about it that hard jklfd

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    • I'm just confused about if, if Gammon was always his ancestor, how he would later have become Gammon since he's not an Irregular and thus wouldn't be able to reincarnate? 

      And if the Court Ending is indeed started from our EC, why would he be reincarnated into the OSS period instead of his original life in Judgment? Irina was implied to have always been Maria and that's why she reincarnated as her. That was my understanding anyway.

      I kinda want to assume that this "Gammon" character is an Octo Clan member and that it's maybe just a reference to Gammon, like Shiro and Clarith's situation. That's probably a stretch under the circumstances though.

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    • to be honest, I don't think reincarnation is necessarily unique to irregulars. any reincarnated soul would be unaware of being a reincarnation up until they were dead again, so it really wouldn't be a very difficult thing to retcon (though I'm not sure where it was actually stated that only irregulars could reincarnate). and tbh I always saw them reincarnating into different bodies as being a possibility, we never got confirmation that our adam and eve were reborn as adam and eve moonlit after all

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    • I did think it was stated somewhere that Irregulars were the only ones who reincarnated, but I can't seem to find it either right now. Maybe Irregulars are just the only ones who for sure will reincarnate > >

      It's true though, the only real case we have confirmed for certain is Irina's, so there's grey area.

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    • I'm hoping the pic of Adam kneeling is a two-parter and we get to see Maria on the next page (Assuming that's who he's kneeling to. Who else would he be kneeling for?)

      I wouldn't be surprised if the Gammon-looking guy's Maria's bodyguard or captain of the royal guard. If he turns out to be related to Gammon in anyway, I hope his sword is the one that eventually becomes the Venom Sword.

      I'm curious about the chapter title for the conclusion: "And to Punishment". All the other titles are songs mothy worked on, so are we getting a new song?

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    • Irina is the one who states that only Irregulars and Hansel and Gretel are able to reincarnate, though as she is not all-knowing it's still open to potential retconning. I think it's just something we'll have to read the novel to see, though given that mothy is advertising it as a novelization of his OSS albums it's likely not a Court End loop novel (unless he intends it as a plot twist, of course).

      "And to Punishment" is likely just to serve as a sequel hook for the next novel, assuming that it's going to have the subheading of "Punishment".

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    • ZAACHARI wrote:
      I'm hoping the pic of Adam kneeling is a two-parter and we get to see Maria on the next page (Assuming that's who he's kneeling to. Who else would he be kneeling for?)

      I don't think this is gonna be a 2 page illust, because we usually get one at the end of the novel (and this is page 14)

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    • mothy has already opened reservations to buy the OSS novel by mail in two stores:
      -Toranoana: https://ec.toranoana.shop/tora/ec/item/040030797407/
      BackcoverOSSNovel

      -Melonbooks: https://www.melonbooks.co.jp/detail/detail.php?product_id=594985

      Also, you can see the back cover of the novel ->

      Source: https://twitter.com/mothy_akuno/status/1206905698904199168

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    • Just a thought on who that Gakupo (or Gammon, as people presume) character is. Could it be possible he could be the senate that keeps getting mentioned is the OSS? I mean, the senate does seem to have a fair role in the series. He does get mentioned in Adam's part of Project Ma (song) and Ma Survival (PV). It also seems likely to me that that Gakupo Character could be the senate as we dont have a song where the senate is represented with a vocaloid, and Gakupo is a vocaloid we havent seen in the OSS sereies. But, thats just what I think, and Im not really that good with analysis...

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    • A senate is a group of people... He could be part of the senate though

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    • I personally think he's that one senator who's a Rahab inheritor, but I've also seen some theorizing that he's Yegor Asayev. I wouldn't know what a terrorist is doing behind a distinguished prince/scientist in what is probably the Royal Institute, but we'll just have to wait and see.

      But I also think he looks way too much like Gammon for him to only be an ancestor. Maybe in the original Third Period, this character was a normal Loop Octopus senator (Gakupo or not) and indeed an ancestor of Lukana, but in III' his role is essentially superseded by Gammon, since Gammon has no place of his own in this time period? I'm just now realizing this sounds a bit like the Assassin's Creed games. I don't think this particular change has an actual effect on the story either way, unlike the detail of Maria having twins instead of one fatherless child in III'. That's just my Gordian knot of thoughts about this one illustration, lol

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    • We all only assumed one child because only one was mentioned, but as was made apparent before nothing says anything was actually changed on the future go-arounds of Maria-Irina-Court. There's a reason for the Merry-Go-Round imagery and it's that you ride it around and nothing really changes as part of the ride. I find it more likely that we're finally seeing the Gakupo a lot of us knew had to exist in the time period thanks to how the laws of the world work (there seems to always be specific faces in each major period to some degree, whether we meet them or not). So yes, he likely IS just the ancestor of Venomania or something. And it's quite likely, like a number of actors in that time period, that he reincarnated somehow. Maybe he hijacked an infant in the distance future or something, we don't know, but all the knowledge we had last I checked said people just resumed their original roles.

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    • Just gonna drop my little Tumblr crack theory on here since we're discussing Gammon. I tend to get a little carried away when theorizing...

      Gammon reincarnates as one of Venomania’s ancestors ➡ Gammon reincarnates as the creator of the Venom drug ➡ The Venom drug is what causes Cain and Abel’s deaths ➡ The Venom drug has the side affect of causing serious deformities in the children of pregnant users ➡ Cain and Abel died because they were born conjoined ➡ OSS!Gammon used Venom on his wife/girlfriend and the genetic predisposition for twins to merge in the womb stays in his bloodline ➡ Gammon is directly responsible for Cherubim’s deformity and all the horrible shit that occurred because of it

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    • Only issue is that Cherubim's deformity is a scab that looks like a face, not the result of a twin who merged in the womb. Still, it would be an interesting full circle.

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    • Is it really just a scab? Because it seems like incomplete chimeraism or mosaicism to me. Which IS the result of merged twins in the womb.

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    • The book calls it a scab in the shape of a face.

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    • That... Makes zero sense, Mothy, but okay. (It makes no sense given how scabs work, no one really has a permanent scab. The closest you get is like. Eczema and that's not a scab.) I wonder if this was something where Mothy didn't have proper words to describe what exactly was going on...

      Not saying I don't believe you, just that I find it odd and wonder if this is a case of just. Not knowing what to call it on Mothy's part.

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    • He probably meant facial scarring or something. It's apparently a more common trope in Japanese fiction to have scarring that looks like a face.

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    • More likely. Birth scarring that lasts still makes me think of mosiacism, but that's neither here nor there.

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    • Mothy has posted on YouTube a short version of Project Ma. Some of the illustrations are from other works such as OSSCE, but overall it's a nice little video.

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    • I really love the new art of Eve and she looks like she is holding a spoon which I'm gonna theorize may be the item that becomes the Marlon Spoon. I like introducing more of the Vessels of Sin to be in OSS

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    • Eneight wrote:
      I really love the new art of Eve and she looks like she is holding a spoon which I'm gonna theorize may be the item that becomes the Marlon Spoon. I like introducing more of the Vessels of Sin to be in OSS

      I had understand that Vessels of sins were things in the Moonlit House. But I'm not very sure 

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    • Octofan wrote: I did think it was stated somewhere that Irregulars were the only ones who reincarnated, but I can't seem to find it either right now. Maybe Irregulars are just the only ones who for sure will reincarnate > >

      It's true though, the only real case we have confirmed for certain is Irina's, so there's grey area.

      It was stated by Irina in Pierrot novel that only gods, demons and irregulars can reincarnate.

      I remember people using this agaisnt the theory that Rilliane could reincarnate (this was before we know she was an Irregular). Although Irina consider the possibility that Rilliane had reincarnated in that novel.


      Of course, Gammon was in the re-birthday. So, maybe he's different after that.

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    • 132.191.1.236 wrote:

      Octofan wrote: I did think it was stated somewhere that Irregulars were the only ones who reincarnated, but I can't seem to find it either right now. Maybe Irregulars are just the only ones who for sure will reincarnate > >

      It's true though, the only real case we have confirmed for certain is Irina's, so there's grey area.

      It was stated by Irina in Pierrot novel that only gods, demons and irregulars can reincarnate.

      I remember people using this agaisnt the theory that Rilliane could reincarnate (this was before we know she was an Irregular). Although Irina consider the possibility that Rilliane had reincarnated in that novel.


      Of course, Gammon was in the re-birthday. So, maybe he's different after that.

      We also have to keep in mind that Mothy has pulled unreliable narration before. Irina is not an Irregular, but Maria Moonlit somehow became Irina Clockworker. (Might be Seth's doing but we don't know.)

      As well, because of this, Irina might just be MISTAKEN. She may think this is how things work, but there may be some other criteria. Keep in mind: Gammon should be, according to Kiril's notes from outside which were meant to answer questions, reincarnating into himself after the RE_bithday. (Kiril also states Adam and Eve were ALWAYS Maria's children.)

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    • From here https://thefifthclown.tumblr.com/post/189068296188/part-2-chapter-3-gods-and-demons-and-her-last

      “A human’s soul could not be reborn. That was only possible for gods and those beings close to them.”

      It could be that the Court Re Birthday has different rules to standard recantation as in anyone pulled in to it will be reborn to there original selves or as their ancestor. ( at least that what I’m getting from the Gammon look a like character )

      Also Kiri could be referring to the fact that Maria had already givin birth to Adam and Eve as Court ,and if you want to get technical Eve is Maria Daughter-in-law after she married Adam.

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    • That... Makes zero sense with the way it was phrased in Kiril's writing but okay. A daughter-in-law is not a daughter, and Court is who had Neo-Adam and Neo-Eve.

      There is NOTHING indicating that people are reborn magically as a different person in the Court ending and we don't even know if the novel takes PLACE in the Court ending. It's just wild speculation in a series full of unreliable narrators ("Allen killed Michaela" comes to mind). Irina could easily be mistaken about criteria.

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    • I do agree that the series has a lot of instances where things we thought were true were proven false by unreliable narration, however the "Allen killed Michaela" thing wasn't unreliable narration so much as it was Vague Implication, which is different from a character outright stating something. that said, we've had situations like rahab speculating that allen and riliane meeting would cause the end of the world, which we know now to be a misdirection for the reveal of behemo being the master of the heavenly yard.

      though I will say, court didn't really give Birth to neo adam and eve, she was a doll. their bodies/souls were stored in the black box inside of her, which had always been in the clockworkers doll. which, it's also worth noting that irina was the one who created the doll itself. it could very well be that maria/irina gave birth to the very same neo adam and eve bodies that we see in heavenly, which were stored inside the clockworkers doll up until they were awakened later on. we really won't know how this is supposed to play out until it happens

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    • Then wouldn't Kiril have called them Irina's children and not Maria's? Also the Clockworker's Doll was created well after the blonde Irregular twins would have been born to Maria in a virgin birth. (Which, as we also know, had to have happened in the first instance of this weird time loop thing that isn't exactly a time loop but I have no other way to describe it, given things aren't supposed to be drastically altered if at all.)

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    • The novel is out.

      For anyone intending to post spoilers, please provide a link to the source, as well as enough context. Posting something provocative and out-of-context such as "Eve has been a floating hotdog this entire time" leads to misinformation and causes disorder, so it's something the wiki would like to discourage.

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    • ZAACHARI wrote: On November 30, Ichika tweeted a sketch of a woman with a hairstyle to Hatsune Miku and has clothes similar to Irina. I wonder if that's supposed to be Maria Moonlit.

      Also as far as the protagonist goes, assuming there will only be 1 book, I think there won't be a central protagonist and the role will change from chapter to chapter.

      Edit: Here's the link https://twitter.com/ichi_ka/status/1200741033509654530

      Ichika say that it original art

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    • https://twitter.com/mothy_akuno/status/1212641920356212736

      The sequel to OSS Sin will be called OSS Punishment (shocking, I know) and will be released sometime later this year.

      I'm pretty sure the silhouette used in the short Project Ma video is the outline used for Sleep Princess/Michelle, so I wonder if there's any additional meaning to that.

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    • Some information I've gathered from here https://fusetter.com/tw/YNTJAi6l#all

      Atleast someone in the Zvezda family is Held's inheritor. Held's power is treating HERs. Levia has inheritors aswell and they have an ability called "人身掌握" (Body control?)

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    • @ Misstress: It's hilarious how the fusetter just says "Eve and Seth are acquaintances," and how both Pale's and Kiril's + Seth's and Adam's relationships are said to be "dangerous/risky."

      Also, does it seem to say that due to Levia's heritage being tainted by HERS, when Eve took in Elluka during Fifth Pierrot, that was the cause of her sudden drop of magical potential? I'm sorry if I'm reading it wrong!

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    • Much to think about with Elluka Chirclatia and the revelation that Held's ability is treating HERs 

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    • As per usual I would take all secondhand info with a grain of salt.

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    • Vad Cesta
      Vad Cesta removed this reply because:
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      05:55, January 6, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • IMG 20200106 103650
      Ichika says that these acrylic keychains will be distributed on BOOTH website and the sale will start in early February

      Also, delivery to other countries will most likely be distributed through an intermediary.[[1]]

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    • I have noticed that the keychains have gears behind them, the CL Dolls and Eve + Adam, but Meta's doesn't, wonder if these are just decorations or just referencing something else?

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    • Hi gu
      Monogatari 1
      ys~~
      Monogatari 2
      Monogatari 3
      Monogatari 4
      Monogatari 5

      Its all

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    • Freakin' mothy! Looking at the text w The Gackpo and Adam, it says ガモン=ループ=オクトパス so his name is Gammon Loop Octopus.

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    • ZAACHARI wrote:
      Freakin' mothy! Looking at the text w The Gackpo and Adam, it says ガモン=ループ=オクトパス so his name is Gammon Loop Octopus.

      Sadly mothy's being inconsistent again, in the Gift bonus story it was stated that the Loop Octopus race had pink hair; but it's even darker than adam... At least this makes sense since they inherited Rahab's prophetic ability and all.


      I would like to tackle how we are gonna name this novel, I don't know why there isn't a page for it yet, but it's better like this.

      I propose we name it Original Sin Story: Crime, not only because it sounds less redundant than saying Original Sin Story: Sin (and the japanese for it isn't as repetitive, cause it's pronounced genzai monogatari: tsumi); but mainly because I think that it's a reference to Crime and Punishment, the novel by the Russian Dostoevsky - since we already know that its sequel is going to be called Original Sin Story: Punishment.

      It would also be yet another Russian reference associated to Levianta.

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    • Judging by the image ,and the confirmed fact that OSS Gammon is a Loop Octopus I wonder if the Senate was hiding the fact that he was a LO and/or has the Purple Dream ability cause it would lead to fact that it was him who was the “prophet” and not Alice.

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    • I mean we can't say he's being inconsistent when we don't have full context of the story. For all we know Gammon is an abnormality among the Loop Octopus because of his dark hair or was adopted into the Loop Octopus family because he possibly also has the Purple Dream. Anyway, I don't think we can make any conclusions till an infomine or reliable info is out.

      As for the title yeah I agree with it being named OSS: Crime because we also have a precedent with 罪 being translated as Crime with Seven Crimes and Punishments so it isn't a stretch at all and it has a connection to another title in the series. 

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    • I see mothy is still avoiding showing us what Maria looks like.

      Also, am I the only one who considered the possibility that OSS!Gammon's hair is probably just a really dark pink?

      Also also, holy crap Pale(?) is huge! Or at least, he looks huge compared to Meta! I do like how Ichika manages to make all the Kiyoterus look distinct from each other, even if they're all basically clones of the same guy (Seth is a skinny dude, Pale is apparently more muscular looking, Kiril and Keel are average, etc.)

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    • I agree with Crime over Sin for the reasons listed, barring any official English translation that proves otherwise. 

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    • Same here, I prefer OSS: Crime.

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    • It may also be the Loop Octopus WOMEN have pink hair. If they trace themselves by matriarchal lines, it might be why it's a defining trait.

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    • I'm not seeing any objections for the translation of OSS: Crime over OSS: Sin, so I'm assuming people are okay with it? 

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    • People can still feel free to object if they have a relevant disagreement but I'm gonna give it a pass for the sake of the page being posted sooner than later.

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    • Price has infomined the Prologue and the First chapter

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    • I thought Maria would be from a long line of Royalty or something.

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    • I suggest we wait for further information before discussing the spelling of new characters, for example Idora could be a reference to Idol (as in idolatry) or to something water-like (hydra in japanese is Hidora). 

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    • My overall reactions to the infomines (will update w/ every new infomine):

      -I find it wierd Gammon Loop Octopus' father's named Miroku. The chances of them being related to the Mirokus are slim. In the chance the LO are not related to the Mirokus, I propose translating his name as Miloch/Milok

      -I'm curious why Adam has a different surname. And he has a father? I have no evidence for it but I think Adam & Gammon in this case are half-brothers.  .

      -I'm thinking the novels take place in the court ending and the resets are why not everything is the exact same as the original Third Period.

      -Considering how Vaju allegedly comes from a videogame monster, I'm in favor of translaring Idora as Hidra.

      -So a guy named Horus is blind in his left eye like Seth. Given how Set & Horus in Egyptian mythology were rivals, I wonder if Horus was also a member of the mask clan

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    • ZAACHARI wrote:
      My overall reactions to the infomines (will update w/ every new infomine):

      -I find it wierd Gammon Loop Octopus' father's named Miroku. The chances of them being related to the Mirokus are slim but...

      -I'm curious why Adam has a different surname. And he has a father? I'm gonna entertain the idea Miroku is Adam's father so that means Gammon is Adam's brother (the new surname is different from their's too but hey). I'm thinking the novels take place in the court ending and the resets are why not everything is the exact same as the original Third Period.

      -Considering how Vaju allegedly comes from a videogame monster, I'm in favor of translaring Idora as Hidra.

      Maybe Gammon is the son of Maria, Miroku did said that if Maria were to have kids he would be the only possible father. 

      Besides, Gammon, Adam and Eve were inside Irina's body (Theater) so it would be possible for Gammon to be born Maria's son.

      I'm sure the thing with Adam's new surname has to do with him surviving the Senate trying to kill him so he was adopted by one of it's members to hide his existence. Or maybe Adam's new adoptive father just didn't kill him hiding him even from the Senate. 

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    • Gammon isn't Maria's kid, the point of that was Miroku was worried about his position since he's the only man with contact with her so if she didn't have a virgin birth he was the only possible father. That would be a major scandal that would cost him his reputation and his position in society, which is clearly all he cares about.

      Adam has a father because the retainer ordered to kill him and his twin clearly didn't actually throw them in the river but smuggled them to safety and adopted them out. You're overthinking something very basic, people.

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    • Also, RE: resets, everyone went back and played who they were before. This is explicit in Kiril's commentary and nothing contradicts it so far. Given how little we ACTUALLY KNOW about the OSS time period, we have no proof that ~everything is different~.

      More likely, given Kiril's commentary, Adam and Eve are likely the twins Maria gave birth to, not Adam and Gammon.

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    • Let's keep things civil here– this is a EC book, not everything is as it seems.

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    • Not everything is as it seems, sure, but like. This would directly contradict canon information at this point--including information within the same book. Kiril even outright states that, due to the gear not having enough power, things would just happen the same way again. Literally. "It'll just repeat the same things again." Which means Gammon cannot be a new character who is the twin of Adam (and again that contradicts even the infomine we have so far, which is Miroku commenting about the past situation and how he would have lost status simply because he'd been the only one with obvious contact with Maria so he'd be pinned as the father even though he isn't).

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    • Just please word your posts more politely.

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    • 2601:405:4880:19C0:41B3:7641:5B65:5153 wrote:
      Not everything is as it seems, sure, but like. This would directly contradict canon information at this point--including information within the same book. Kiril even outright states that, due to the gear not having enough power, things would just happen the same way again. Literally. "It'll just repeat the same things again." Which means Gammon cannot be a new character who is the twin of Adam (and again that contradicts even the infomine we have so far, which is Miroku commenting about the past situation and how he would have lost status simply because he'd been the only one with obvious contact with Maria so he'd be pinned as the father even though he isn't).

      Sorry, english isn't my original language, I think I worded myself wrong:

      I don't mean Gammon being Adam's twin. Obviously Adam and Eve are the twins that Maria gave birth to.
      I tried to say that maybe Miroku did have a secret relationship with Maria that led to Gammon. After all he was the only one with direct contact with Maria, he could have hid it and adopted Gammon as a legitimate with his wife (if Gamoon is recognized as a son Miroku sure has a wife) son to the public. This would be a reason for Mothy to bring up the possibility of Miroku having a child with Maria, like a foreshadowing I mean.
      Gammon would be a half brother of Adam and Eve and not part of the pair of twins that are mentioned are Maria's children.

      The thing with Adam's new father is obvious in my opinion so I agree with you and the retainer thing. I guess the retainer in that time gave the baby to the Senator that Adam inherited the place into the Senate.

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    • There is a clear and present reason why mothy had Miroku's internal narrative bring up that Miroku is the only person who has contact with Maria and thus would be suspected as the father: to explain why he had her children killed. So I don't see that as functioning as foreshadowing for anything else. There is very little reason (none at all, in fact) to think that Gammon is Maria's child. She is only mentioned as having the one pair of twins in her internal narrative in the prologue, and openly adopting that child (rather than getting rid of it) doesn't seem like the kind of thing he'd do, given that he didn't hesitate to try to force her to abort her twins and then had them drowned. That's not to say the theory is impossible, but that it feels like it would be a needless complication with insufficient foreshadowing.

      This comes up in the next chapter, but Adam was not given to the senator that adopted him, he was adopted out of an orphanage. It seems the retainer did indeed throw the children in the river--they just survived.

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    • The Gammon theory is just too weird, because, again, the entire point of bringing up that he would be the only possible father of Maria's children in the eyes of the Senate is to, as the other anon said, establish his motive in attempting to kill the twins. That is, he cared far, far more about his status in society than anything else, and while HE knew that the children couldn't possibly his, as well that he was NOT in a secret relationship with Maria, the rest of the Senators are not going to buy what he says just because he's the only one with access to Maria to impregnate her short of a miracle.

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    • Next chapter has been infomined

      I'm really enjoying this so far, particularly how much development OSS Eve's gotten at long last. Makes it kind of sad what she becomes by the time Gift rolls around

      There's already so much stuff we're going to have to update about the series' lore on the appropriate pages when the infomine is finished orz. For example, I think we will definitely need to split the Levianta page into Magic Kingdom Levianta and Holy Levianta as was once suggested. 

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    • I think that's a good idea

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    • Another question is that: in the musics of "Project MA" and "Queen of the glass" sounds like Alice knew that Adam was her son. I wonder if he found out sometime later, or Adam knew because he didn't have childhood amnesia, and have the memories of when he was a baby, or Alice had named them before they were took away.

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    • It might be that the forest spirit told him, too, keep in mind.

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    • Infomine of chapter 3 is in ; answers the question about how Adam knew, anyway. Horus (aka Obviously Seth) told him. It looks like Maria did name them before they were thrown away, too.

      Seth, who has entered the running for Worst Parent of Evillious up against Ma and Prim

      I will say now, taking into account Eve and Adam's chapters... this novel is petty dark. I'd argue the content actually pushes into "mature rating" territory in a way that even the Venomania novel did not, and while nothing explicitly graphic has shown up (although does Eve's dad's death count? > >) I don't know as it's suitable for younger readers. So, everyone just please keep that in mind.

      With that out of the way, I do think it's interesting that Seth was able to smoke a cigarette in MKL's time. Does that mean they knew about Maistia already? Or is it a magical cigarette.

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    • According to one of Price's posts, they apparently had (something resembling) cars too, if that says anything.

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    • Well I mean, I was more joking cause cars (i.e. mechanical devices powered by magic) are one thing, but in Gift it's explained that cigarettes were only a thing in Evillious after the discovery of tobacco in Maistia around Margarita's time period. It's just Odd.

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    • Horus was described to have physically aged so either he was a ghoul child or he was Seth and had a machine that could increase or decrease his age. I personally think that Seth's body ages too and he needs to swap bodies in order to not die.

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    • Octofan wrote:
      Well I mean, I was more joking cause cars (i.e. mechanical devices powered by magic) are one thing, but in Gift it's explained that cigarettes were only a thing in Evillious after the discovery of tobacco in Maistia around Margarita's time period. It's just Odd.

      Ah.

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    • Can I comment that as of right now we can'teven be sure if Cain and Abel even died because the only real source on it is Seth? Because that's terrifying. We never see the bodies, and Adam wasn't in the room. There's the priest but with Seth's reach he could be compromised, and Eve is far too insane to tell us either way (though if they are indeed alive she might not even be THAT insane).

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    • Octofan wrote:

      I'm really enjoying this so far, particularly how much development OSS Eve's gotten at long last. Makes it kind of sad what she becomes by the time Gift rolls around

      I think we will definitely need to split the Levianta page into Magic Kingdom Levianta and Holy Levianta as was once suggested.

      Big Agree on both

      Octofan wrote:

      With that out of the way, I do think it's interesting that Seth was able to smoke a cigarette in MKL's time. Does that mean they knew about Maistia already? Or is it a magical cigarette.

      He's definetely vaping, Octo. I don't think that they knew what Maistia was, especially given that their super technology is not developed by MKL, but just discovered via escavation sites. They might've discovered magically-powered cars and TVs, but it seems world geography doesn't interest them lol.

      Anyway, it nice to have the confirmation that Nemu originally belonged in Magic Kingdom Levianta instead of Elphegort, since Eve's chapter says "The people of Nemu saw it (Held) as an evil god, but the people of the forest saw it as a guardian deity. The area with Held in it is inside the border of another country, and Leviantan citizens aren’t allowed to cross the border without permission". This is also consistent with the Pierrot novel, in which Irina narrates that to become 'Ma' one had to be a devotee of LeviaBehemo. It seems that Merrigod also belonged to MKL, so I'm glad that its borders were actually larger than Holy Levianta.

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    • 2601:405:4880:19C0:21D5:CEDA:F66D:C60F wrote:
      Can I comment that as of right now we can'teven be sure if Cain and Abel even died because the only real source on it is Seth? Because that's terrifying. We never see the bodies, and Adam wasn't in the room. There's the priest but with Seth's reach he could be compromised, and Eve is far too insane to tell us either way (though if they are indeed alive she might not even be THAT insane).

      What are you talking about?

      Cain and Abel's bodies (or rather the darkish "things") are what Eve is holding when Adam goes in there. They're what she gave birth to. It's pretty clear on that.

      Even if you're not convinced there, taking a glance at Seth's chapter he mentions their death in his internal monologue. So, yeah, they're dead.

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    • What I find most interesting is the fact that Eve has met Meta before and that Meta had essentially taken Eve's family from her. Perhaps the events of Moonlit Bear is Eve's revenge against Meta, though that is just my speculation for now.

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    • so um. adam and eve are confirmed to be brother and sister. 

      I know this is Evillious we're dealing with and stuff like this isn't even unpresedented, but there's something about this particular twist that makes me feel like there should be a mature content warning on the novel's page.

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    • I agree; incest as drama has shown up in the series before with Ma and Gallerian, but in that case the actual content of their relationship was glossed over with a timeskip. And that's not even the only thing that this book discusses that's going to need a warning.

      Adam and Eve's chapters have gotten me thinking more about maybe being more conscientious about devising mature content warnings for EC in general given that this kind of stuff (and various other things readers may find disturbing,) is not unprecedented. That might be a separate conversation, though, I think, as it would probably involve discussing coding too.

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    • Also Seth's mentality is really interesting to me, cause it's reminding me a lot of Prim. 

      And it looks like Zaachari was right with him swapping into a new body. Snake shedding skin metaphors?

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    • Darn it Mothy, why do you have to go and traumatize me again!?

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    • We can finally say that Venom didn't even affect Eve because she's an Inheritor of Levia. Dammit, mothy! (i have no basis for this, but I think it would be funny if adam was an inheritor of behemo)

      I'm also curious if that means all inheritors are immune to the powers of the God/Demon their powers are derived from. Like, could Meta not be seduced by Gilles or a male Inheritor?

      As for the ghoul children, so Meta & Irina are clones, just modified? And Seth can just guarantee that they are Inheritors?

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    • No venom, just extreme emotional vulnerability and manipulation.

      For Meta and Irina, it says clones but not clones so maybe? There is definitely a distinction between them and Pale. Seth making them inheritors probably wouldn't be that hard since being an inheritor is genetic.

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    • Well, it would explain why do we have others characters that looks a like and are not related. Maybe, when Set made Meta, he took a DNA from an ancestor of Beelzenia Royal family.

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    • So now that its been confirmed that OSS Adam and Eve are siblings i think its time to look back on this information from Gift  

      https://giftfromthesleepprincess.tumblr.com/post/183990156444/chapter-6-the-eternal-sorceress-scene-2

      "The swap technique—that was an exceedingly difficult spell. Even in the old Magic Kingdom there were few people who could use it, and Elluka herself only knew of four.

      The queen, Merry-go-round.

      Her son, Adam Moonlit.

      The original sinner, Eve Zvezda.

      And the witch, Meta Salmhofer."

      Considering that Eve is a confirmed Levia inheritor do you thik its safe to assume that Maria and Adam are Levia inheritors as well?

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    • 149.68.7.121 wrote: Considering that Eve is a confirmed Levia inheritor do you thik its safe to assume that Maria and Adam are Levia inheritors as well?

      I wouldn't. Seth specifically said he got the venom thanks to Eve's DNA; wouldnt it be easier for him to get it from Adam or Maria, if that were the case? Also, none of the two have had the power of altering people's minds.

      From my understanding, being an inheritor is yes genetic (like how the Netsuma clan seems to be all inheritors of Salem) but I think one can just be lucky enough to suddently be born with an inheritor ability, as was Eve's case. That, or Seth manipulated her genes like he did with Meta (and I'm assuming Irina too).

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    • Eve being a levia inheritor is maybe a genetic mutation I think, or is a form of certain genes being active in her and not her mother or brother, because eve also has Green hair while Adam doesn't, this could be possible as Lukana's family never seem to say that they experience visions and dont believe lukana's vision, and there is no mention of some one off affair for lukanas birth. So yeah its v possible.

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    • So since Eve could not be affected by Venom as an inheritor of Levia, could that mean that her mental instability and delusions that her children were still alive could have been a result of her using hypnosis on herself to deal with Cain and Abel's deaths, in a similar manner to how she uses it on herself and others while residing in the Clockworker's Doll?

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    • 2600:1016:B042:9E22:25B8:69CC:1EA5:FD18 wrote:
      So since Eve could not be affected by Venom as an inheritor of Levia, could that mean that her mental instability and delusions that her children were still alive could have been a result of her using hypnosis on herself to deal with Cain and Abel's deaths, in a similar manner to how she uses it on herself and others while residing in the Clockworker's Doll?

      I'd rather wait until Price is done infomining the novel, maybe it'll be clearer later on. Although I'd rather an explanation for Eve's insanity since she seemed to have a much happier childhood than Adam, and yet she becomes a psychopath in 2 of her 4 incarnations

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    • Eve did go through an incredibly traumatic loss right before Adam swooped in and made her emotionally dependent on both him and the project's success. Not to mention whatever it is she encountered in the temple, which was apparently so traumatic that it robbed her memory of the test and also kills unworthy queen candidates.

      She also, imo, showed signs of "ends justifies the means" even before she supposedly snapped--killing Raisa's crew without a thought, having grand ambitions of taking over the country to erase all the "evil" in it and achieve "good" (if Venom wasn't working then these came out of her mind, not Adam's). It's possible that her worldview didn't necessarily change so much as in her broken state she redefined "good" to mean "being with Adam and her kids" and "evil" to mean "anything that gets in the way of that"

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    • mothy released a short PV to promote OSS Crime. I wonder for Punishment, if he'll make a full PV? If he does, I wonder if he'll add on to Seth's part or add in a part for Maria? (That last one seems highly unlikely but hey)

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    • I'm feeling very idk about the trend of incest becoming a common plot twist in Mothy's recent novels. Anyway I know it was brought up to have a mature content warning but I think we would need to define what that line is. Like we have serial murder, rape, and cannabilism already. 

      Anyway, I'm getting really curious about Adam and Eve's biology. I know that we are being lead to believe they are Maria's children but neither of them are blonde haired or blue eyed which Maria's children have been said to be since they are Irregulars. I guess we'll see if the novel confirms anything. I find it strange that not even Seth questions why they aren't blonde. 

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    • For the mature content warning thing, yeah that's another reason why I figured it was a separate topic. I think it's important we should use a set standard (how are books normally rated?) to keep it from becoming subjective, maybe something to be discussed in its own thread once the book is infomined. It's not even just about what subjects are discussed (mothy touches on a lot of big upsetting ones, someone kindly provided me a list,) but also how graphically/how much the novel discusses them.

      For example, the plot of Venomania's story features rape (though not the typical kind as seen in real life) but also does not show or describe sexual acts. iirc Mothy made a statement about writing it so that a younger audience would also be able to read it. (in other words it's horrible, but not NSFW.) I feel that this was not as much a concern for him when writing this book. (it's not nsfw exactly? but doesn't gloss over these things either.) Conchita's novel is another one I feel could stand to have a warning tbh On the other hand, the Venomania song that features a condensed form of the novel's plot is flagged as explicit on the Vocaloid Wiki for pretty valid reasons of its subject matter, so there's that to consider too.

      tldr; When we define this line we're probably going to be including more than a few other EC works under it.

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    • You know, I went back and checked the infomine of that scene and it doesn't actually state the children's hair and eye color, nor does it state that they are Irregulars. We assumed they were since Maria believes them to be a virgin conception, but it's possible their coming about is another mystery that will be revealed to be something other than the Irregular thing. 

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    • I think Eve was affected by Venom at some level.

      Every time she drank that coffee, her doubts about Adam disappeared. And she seemed to form a certain addiction to that coffee.

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    • I mean, caffeine in itself is addicting. It could be just getting the caffeine rush that soothed her doubts. After all, nothing says that Venom is addictive.

      Nonetheless, this is kind of a topic that we'll be going in circles on--there are indications that she was affected, but the only actual definitive word we have on the matter is Seth saying she wasn't. Unless something comes up later I don't think it's necessarily going to be more clear by prolonged discussion on it.

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    • I had always wondered what the God Seed was. At the end, it works like a sperm and impregnated Eve (and she's the biological mother of Cain and Abel).

      I should say I always find a bit weird the idea that God Seed works as a sperm since it had Levia genes. However, I guess it makes sense since it is not exactly sperm, it only has that same function.

      It seems that Adam mixed his genes with the God Seed, so he was the biological father of Cain and Abel. Seth seems to copy his idea for Hansel and Gretel.

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    • Octofan wrote:
      You know, I went back and checked the infomine of that scene and it doesn't actually state the children's hair and eye color, nor does it state that they are Irregulars. We assumed they were since Maria believes them to be a virgin conception, but it's possible their coming about is another mystery that will be revealed to be something other than the Irregular thing. 

      IIRC it was Heavenly that stated she had two blonde children, and I know it was mentioned previously in Heavenly that Maria's children were Irregulars as they were part of the examples.

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    • Looking back at Price's infomine it isn't specific. Gallarian just lists a virgin witch having a child would be an irregular and have blonde hair. I swear there was somewhere it mentioned the baby/babies had blonde hair but Heavenly Yard novel doesn't ever say the kids are blonde and I even checked the translation of the OSS-CE booklet which again doesn't actually mention Maria's child as blonde. 

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    • Same. I KNOW I saw it mentioned. But given that we know Seth had a hand in their disappearance, I was chaling up hair color change to him doing something to hide them in case HE needed them. then only he could find them.

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    • Next chapter is infomined ; some thoughts:

      • Meta's powers actually causing serious harm to her initially have some noteworthy implications for inheritors. Venomania, even when amnesiac, never once accidentally brainwashed Lukana (and his brainwashing always specifically made them subservient to him. There's definitely different levels being demonstrated here on how the power works on someone's mind, like how Meta and Venomania both seem able to also directly control people like puppets.) Presumably, being a contractor doesn't backfire that way as he's only borrowing Gilles' power (and Gilles obviously knows how to use it.) This also fits in with how Eve accidentally brainwashes herself via her incarnations as explored in Gift. That mothy brought this concept up here in the same novel as Moonlit Bear makes me think that he is going to head in that direction with Eve's bear hallucination, though we'll see.
      • Suddenly wondering if there's any relation between the Red Devotees and the Crimson Robed Masses. Probably just a color reference.
      • So the crying woman isn't Eve after all? >-----> huh. Retconning of PV? That's disheartening.
      • It is interesting as well to see that the political situation in MKL had a massive upheaval from the first Project to the second one. 
      • Since (as someone already leaked in the novel's comment section) we know that Pale turns into Kiril (and now it's pretty obvious that the reset is why,) I guess Pale being put into a child's body is mothy's way of explaining how Kiril is still similar in age to Elluka Chirclatia, who was also conveniently introduced as a child in this chapter. With new identity comes a new childhood.
      • Plot twist the reveal of the next book will be that Maria has bodyswapped into Gammon.
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    • Oh, Moonlit Bear part 1 is done too

      gdi I have to sleep.

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    • I'm a little curious as to what Meta meant by brother, sorry it just happened to quickly.

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    • Looks like that Pale actually cares about Meta, in some point. Since he said to her run, even if it means to him be left behind.

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    • Octofan wrote:
      For the mature content warning thing, yeah that's another reason why I figured it was a separate topic. [...] 

      [the] Venomania song that features a condensed form of the novel's plot is flagged as explicit on the Vocaloid Wiki for pretty valid reasons of its subject matter, [...]

      tldr; When we define this line we're probably going to be including more than a few other EC works under it.

      coming out of my once a year lurking cave to add to this...

      I really, really recommend that we get something started in terms of having a thread discussion or whatever, especially now that it's more prevalent than ever. Not just because I'm surprised having warnings is something this wiki lacks (specifically with Venomania and Loki's human hunting slave...thing), but also because I've been meaning to bring attention to how Fandom TOU has been affecting the general Vocaloid Wiki, and if/how this will/could affect us here, and never really had a good time to bring it up.

      In regards to what was mentioned about the Venomania song, at least on my end, the Venomania page on the Vocaloid Wiki is just flat out gone as of right now; unlike the songs on the SDS/Gackpo pages, its text doesn't have a link to the song page, is in red text on the 2010 mothy works page, and isn't present when I search for it in the search bar. Why it was removed I can't say, given other explicit song pages are still up, but without lyrics. Maybe it was lost in the move to the different website format, or maybe something else, idk. Interestingly, it is still up on Vocaloid Lyrics wiki, fully intact.

      The whole thing is kinda a mess right now, given that some songs that have explicit lyrics on the Vocaloid Wiki have them removed, but on Lyrics Wiki they're still there; it's not really relevant here so I'll hold off on it for now. Regardless, I do want to bring it up more in detail once we get a thread going (I generally am not actively involved in posting here, so I didn't feel comfortable starting it up myself, but I will if someone wants me to lol).

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    • No wonder I couldn't find some of Hitoshizuku-P's songs

      Back on topic, the last two chapters are up

      Moonlit Bear part 2 - https://pricechecktranslations.tumblr.com/post/190589094680/oss-crime-chapter-6-moonlit-bear-a

      Epilogue - https://pricechecktranslations.tumblr.com/post/190594060690/oss-crime-epilogue-and-so-to-punishment

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    • From what I can tell, it seems The 4 main members of Apocalypse are in charge of their own branches (Red Devotees, Black Army, and the White Army). Pale's division would most likely be called the Pale Army to be in line with the Four Horsemen from the Bible. I looked up which Horsemen represents what and the Red Rider's war, Black's famine, White's pestilence, and Pale's death.

      I still want to know the identities of the remaining 2 or 3 Ghoul Children. Are we counting any body Seth created for a vessel to be a Ghoul Child?

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    • I think maybe we should count them as Ghoul Children. They seem to all fall under the umbrella of Seth's experiments with creating human bodies (I just didn't figure he'd swap his souls into his own guinea pigs.)

      Something that occurred to me about the Pale and Kiril twist, when Kiril is talking in the Clockwork Lullaby album he mentions getting the memories of the "original"; the assumption was that he meant Seth, who was the one from which he was cloned, but I wonder if he more meant his original identity, i.e. he got his memories of being Pale back.

      Also apparently there's still some more new information to come in the series' glossary, so we're not quite done yet.

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    • I think that the other Ghoul Children are the new body of pale (Kiril), maybe Amostia, and Keel.

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    • I noticed something about Milky, the MA Survival PV showed her to be reletively the same age as Elluka and showed her as an adult with Pale; however, when Pale was still Pale and with Milky, Elluka was still a child. While we'll need the second novel to be sure, there is a chance that Milky and Pale's relationship was retconned into being pedophilia. Meta also reffered to Milky as a "brat" with Price stating that her age was unknown, but likely young.

      Of course this is partially just speculation. Since Milky was a good enough mage to be a MA candidate, she could possibly be using magic to look younger, or something.

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    • It could be one of those older than they look things.

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    • In addition to the fact that she could be making herself look younger, Ichika's art is also really bad at depicting age. So I wouldn't rely on it as a benchmark for how old a character is (she's drawn plenty of baby-faced thirty year olds).

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    • I wonder if the reset thing is a hint to how Maria ends up becoming Irina. It could be why she never ends up remembering her original identity and shows up as Irina even in Levia's mind world. 

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    • yeah I think it could just be that milky is older than we thought she was. gallerian was almost 40 when he died and while it's true his baby face was explained with weird genetics that was several years after he'd been designed and drawn with it

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    • Hello, does anyone know if the keychains for this novel are avaliable yet? Thank you <3

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    • What if: Meta's Red devotees became the Red Shoe Army that founded Beelzenia Empire? It would explain the connection between Meta and Beelzenia's imperial family

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    • Some of them could have also fled Eastward and become the forerunners of the crimson robed Masses.

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    • GreekTelepath wrote: Some of them could have also fled Eastward and become the forerunners of the crimson robed Masses.

      But that group was founded by Irina. The name is based on her clothes, using Germaine like her vessel/medium

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    • Irina is an inheritor of Salem, because of her blue flames, right? What if since Seth made Irina, at some point after EC 0 was established, Maria body swapped into Irina? And her blue flame ability could have been either A.) Have been implanted by Seth, or Maria was just a Salem inheritor in general (which would be a neat coincidence since Adam ends up on the spoon).

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    • Octofan
      Octofan removed this reply because:
      Double post, contributes nothing to thread
      05:10, March 6, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Seth making Irina an inheritor is my best guess, since he already experimented with that a little in Meta's case. 

      Just want to note, too, that once we split Magic Kindom Levianta and Holy Levianta, the "Levianta" link will have to be a red link. People will need to clarify in the link which Levianta they mean from now on (and I imagine it will need to have a "are you looking for [Blank?]" in it.) That's gonna be a lot of red links, so when the time comes it'd be very helpful if people willing to edit articles change them as they see them.

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    • Just crossed my mind, but we're going to have to address how the "Pale = Kiril" plot twist affects Milky's History section.

      For me, I think it's reasonable to assume that Kiril became lovers with Milky and got her pregnant, since Pale was turned into Kiril in EC 0 and Milky became pregnant in EC 011.

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    • orz I don't like saying that on the pages but I also can't figure out any other reasoning unless mothy is going to outright retcon the PV, which he's already done with Escape of the Witch Salmhofer but still, probably shouldn't assume a retcon unless it's confirmed.

      Or Milky got pregnant from an entirely other person and just told everyone it was Pale but that's a leap

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    • idk, ever since Survival Ma PV came out, I was personally under the impression the info towards the end was a kind of wink-wink nudge-nudge unreliable narration due to it's vagueness and limited information, and is referring to Keel being identical to Pale, the narrator being unaware they're literally clones.

      so at least for me, nothing has changed. But it will hurt if it turns out Kiril cheated :c

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    • Seth deliberately using Irina as Alice's vessel seems a reasonable assumption, as far as assuming things in this series goes. I'd guess Irina's human body would essentially be the same as the cat doll, but with a bonus memory wipe? Alice herself is too old to be a ghoul child, though, so I'm not totally sure how she would be moved. It's extremely questionable if she's human, so we'll have to wait and (hopefully) see how all of this went down.

      It's notable that the book goes out of its way to avoid describing/showing Alice, so something's certainly afoot.

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    • милок (Milok) may be a good translation for the name Gammon's dad.

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    • Sounds good to me, let's wait for some more opinions

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    • I know Miroku is supposed to be Leviantan- ergo Russian- Milok's probaby what mothy was going for, but because Nyoze & Gammon apparently come from a Buddist saying, I wonder if Miroku comes from Miroku, another name for Maitreya the fifth Buddha

      Also I wonder if OSS:Punishment will have huge retcons like in Crime? Like, will the reason Elluka didn't detect Irina's HER be Seth created Irina w/o HER and he implanted malice into her sometime after she was accepted as a Project Ma candidate?

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    • I think this might be another "Kachess, Karchess" situation where we'll only be able to get a clear answer from Mothy himself

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    • If it's unclear what mothy's going for with Miroku Loop Octopus' name, I say we just stick with Miroku, in case it's a reference to the Miroku family of Jakoku. If anyone has any other opinions, I'm opening this discussion for 12 more hours. Otherwise, Miroku stays Miroku.

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    • ...But I don't see any ties between Miroku Loop Octopus and the Miroku family of Jakoku? How can it be a reference when there's absolutely zero connection that I can see.

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    • It's Mothy; he might pull a connection out of thin air four years down the line for all we know

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    • Might doesn't mean we should assume one exists, though. Especially since the Miroku family that's their SURNAME and for him it's his GIVEN NAME.

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    • I also find it unlikely it's a reference to the Miroku family in any serious capacity, though I don't think it matters if one is a surname and one is given. It's a written story, not a real-life family tree.

      That being said Zaachari already pointed out that it could be a Buddhist reference, which is more likely to me given the precedent of "Nyozegammon" in his sons (I know Nyoze isn't Miroku's actual son but Gammon Loop Octopus is basically Gammon Octo anyway) Of course, mothy probably isn't thinking of how the name looks properly translated so he could have been going for both Buddhist reference and Russian name, but idk if that's our call to make.

      So far I'm seeing 2 for the change and three against(?), I'm personally neutral. 

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    • I'm ambivalent, I just don't think "it's probably a reference to this family tree that he displays zero connection to at all" is a very good reason, and honestly feels kinda careless to say when there IS no connection. The Buddhist reference makes more sence.

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    • Isn't the Miroku family confirmed to be descended from the Li's? Or was it just 'Kingdom of Miroku' because the Li's felt like it?

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    • It's Mukoku, not Miroku.

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    • Ohh okay! Thankees~

      While I'm here a couple thoughts.

      1. Held probably made his inheritors able to cure HER cause he wasn't able to cure his daughter.
      2. What if Elluka didn't sense Irina was a HER because as a Salem inheritor, her ability to sense/cure it was negated? Similar to how Vessels/Demons are immune to each other.
      3. Sorry if any of these have been brought up. I'm on mobile and this is a long thread to read.
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    • Held was not involved in the creation process of humanity at all, so there's no reason to think that he had anything to do with what powers his inheritors had.

      If different Inheritors were able to cancel each other out, Elluka wouldn't have been affected by Eve's brainwashing in Gift, as Elluka was in the body of a Rahab inheritor at the time.

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    • It's confirmed that Elphe's were based off Held. Is it so crazy to assume that in the process of creating humanity, everyone was asked what they wanted their Inheritors/Vesels abilities to be? It's possible everyone on Climb One was going to have Inheritors, but were killed before it could be implemented. Hence why every spirit has special abilities. It also explains why Marie was able to have specific powers as a Demon, despite not being a scientist. Same for Salem.

      That's a valid point. But there's factors than just Eve, Elluka, and Rahab. Even though he was sleeping, Behemo's soul could have negated Levia's powers. While yes the Body gives you their abilities, true magic comes from the soul. Eve's active ability could have over powered Levia's passive one, maybe even feeding off it because she is a Levia inheritor.

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    • There is nothing really suggesting that inheritors was a deliberate thing done on the part of the Climb One crew rather than a fluke or accident in creating a new humanity. There's also nothing stating that the abilities that the demons have are a result of being scientists--my understanding was that they gained their abilities in the process of being turned into demons. The fact that the only spirits who have abilities are Eater and Lich, and that it's implied these were given to them by Banica, supports this idea.

      I'm not sure what "true magic" has to do with it, given that both Eve's ability and the Purple Dream power are stated to be Inheritor abilities, which are explicitly not the same thing as magic as stated by Adam. How could Behemo's soul have negated Levia's purple dream ability? What "power" does Behemo's soul have that would do this? How can inheritor abilities "feed" off of each other? (and in case I need to restate it, the inheritor ability Levia has is Rahab's because she is in Lukana's body, not because Levia is stated to have any inheritor powers herself). I'm still not sure how this relates to your original point on Elluka and Irina--how does being able to summon fire negate another person's ability to sense HER?

      Like, these things are theoretically possible if you make up a bunch of new mechanics that have never been talked about before, I just don't see evidence pointing to it as is.

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    • Friendly reminder that this is a thread for discussing the OSS: Crime novel. Extensive theories and speculation go on the Theories Discussion Board.

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    • A FANDOM user
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