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  • This is a thread for discussing the new Clockwork Lullaby album. For further discussion, see the previous thread.

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    • Posting the list of pages that still need to be updated here:

      TO-DO LIST

      • Kiril Clockworker
      • Sickle (Greek)
      • Clockworker Family (Greek)
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    • Don't forget the Clockworker Family page

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    • I've finished the Greeonio and Lucif Family pages and will post them given permission.

      One question, I was thinking about making a page for the coulumb family but I don't think Nagisa's child counts so should I just abandon that? Because without Nagisa's kid there's only two known members.

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    • I honestly think we should move the minimum for family pages from three members to five. Otherwise every couple with at least one child will be getting a page.

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    • The problem is that if we did that, then we'd have to delete alot pages that have important information. LIke I don't think we need a page for every single family but there are clans and such that have importance, Like I don't think the Musupi and Ferdinand family needs pages. But the Le Corbusier family could use one.

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    • GreeonioFam
      Can this image be used for the Greeonio family page?
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    • personally I'd crop it just a little bit closer to mikulia's neck

      it's a bit awkward having her chest just kind of, There

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    • Yeah, you're probably right.

      GreeonioFam

      How about this?

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    • Now it's unfortunate for slightly different reasons

      It keeps out Mikulia groping herself, though, so I'm okay with it.

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    • So can I post the Greeonio and Lucif pages?

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    • Go ahead with the Greeonio family. As for the Lucif family, just say that it eventually led to the d'Autriche dukes rather than assuming a Lucif married into them and it should be fine.

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    • I think Nagisa's kid would count on a Coloumb page if Nagisa does?

      It's not like the kid is a speculative "we know she must have had one because she's Gatt's ancestor," she's pregnant in the story and her future with her baby is under discussion.

      There would also be Gatt's mother, who's mentioned as being a prostitute in an obscure part of Asmodean so is not just a "we know she must have existed" case either. So the Coloumb page would have, ideally, four members.

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    • Ok, thanks. I forgot about Gatt's mother completly.

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    • I'm done with the Coulomb page and I feel like I could post a disambiguations page for Servant of evil (allen, the manga, the song).

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    • Hey is it safe to assume that the "Him" conchita mentioned is Carlos? Because I've heard some claim that they hear KAITO's voice in the end and then the lyrics kinda mirror Drug of Gold.

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    • In what way do they mirror Drug of Gold? 

      Also, no, it's not safe to assume that just because some people claim to hear Kaito.

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    • As for the Coulomb page (and this kind of applies to the Coulomb mom too) you don't have to say Gatt's mom is who made him aware of their lineage, because nothing actually says she did that (and his relation to Sateriasis never even comes up.) Just say that they faced discrimination due to her status and their relation to Gast. Otherwise, it's fine.

      I agree with a disambiguation page too.

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    • Ok thanks.

      For the drug of gold thing, I just thought "kare to tomoni" and "Towa ni kimi to tomoni" went together

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    • Those phrases have one word in common (and apparently a very common word at that.) I don't think that's sufficient evidence.

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    • Still when Banica says "Zenzokuzenshin" there is absolutely a male voice backing her up

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    • That doesn't mean that it's Carlos, and even if it was, that doesn't mean the "kare" refers to Carlos. Whoever the "kare" is is someone who she doesn't include with her friends. We don't know if it's Carlos, who is being excluded because he's more important to her, or if it's Seth, who's being excluded because she isn't that close with him.

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    • I tried messing around with that part of the song in my editing software and I think the other "voice" is actually just Rin and Len. I'm not hearing Kaito or Kiyoteru no matter what I do to the audio, and those two have pretty distinctive accents.

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    • Guess we'll just have to wait for a PV then.

      Since the Sanosun Bridge Oath has it's own song, should it have it's own page? I've tried making a page for the murder of Adam and Eve and I can start on a page for the oath.

      I have made disambiguations pages for Ren (Sudou, Kokutan, Behemo, Allen), I will make one for Santa Claus (Lilith, Mayrana, Julia) since the name "santa" has importance. I made one for Mikulia since Eve calls herself Mikulia and that's all we know "the demon of sloth" to be, but I'm not sure if that counts.

      The sections for the coulombs and Gast's mom have been finished aswell as sections for Unimemo and signal.

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    • I'm not sure what you could put on the Sanosun Bridge Oath page other than a brief summary of the Lucifenian Expansion War.

      As for the disambiguation pages for Ren and Santa Claus, go ahead. Eve only calls herself "demon Mikulia" once and isn't really known by the title, so I don't see why we'd need a disambiguation page for that.

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    • An entire page for the murder of Adam and Eve? Is that really necessary?

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    • Also, I'm not sure a Ren disambiguation is strictly necessary either. I mean, it's not like they're titles they expressly chose to give themselves and went by, it was just a name that Kayo kept calling them out of the mistaken belief that they were the original Ren, her son.

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    • I agree that a Ren disambiguation is unnecessary. At best, it's a nickname one person gives them and at worst it's a case of mistaken identity, wherein the only "Ren" people are going to want to look up is the original. Save for Kayo's page the other pages don't, or shouldn't, refer to them as Ren anyway.

      I also do not think the Sanosun Bridge Oath should have an event page, as it'd be a stub and there's what GT said about it basically rehashing the Lucifenian Expansion War.

      Adam and Eve's murder could have a page but I'm on the fence. It's only really a significant event because of the seven deadly sins being released.

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    • This is straying back to earlier discussions, but I am a little confused about Adam and Eve (not Moonlit). To the best of my knowledge there is never a mention of them reincarnating into Adam Moonlit and Eve Zvezda during the time loop. I think others have mentioned that Adam and Eve could have become Alice's twins. I back the first part of this theory because Irregulars tend to stay Irregular throughout reincarnations. Like Hansel/Gretel or Riliane/Allen.

      I've also heard others talk about this, and then connect the twins back to Moonlit and Zvezda. Is it possible that Adam and Eve have no connection to Adam Moonlit and Eve Zvezda?

      If they were Alice's kids, how do they lose their blond hair? How does Eve become Elphe? Is it possible that this set of Irregular twins, Adam and Eve, have no relation to the OG Adam and Eve, save for being at least half siblings with Adam Moonlit, and could be separate characters entirely, excluding the soul merge in EC 1000? The wiki cites Adam as being born distinctly before the Irregular twins were. I feel like it may be hasty to assume they are the same character without concrete evidence for it. For all we know, they could be mysterious singers.

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    • Sorry for making that one big block of text, it looked different when I typed it up.

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    • From Kiril's commentary the Clockwork Lullaby album:

      Thanks to the “Re_Birthday” time wound back.

      And so Irina will once more become Adam's…

      And Eve’s mother.

      We're not really sure how to interpret this statement other than Maria being Adam Moonlit and Eve Zvezda's mother. As said before, the Re_birthday appears to have brought everyone back to the original incarnations (Irina becoming Maria).

      Also, while there have been instances where irregulars are irregulars in their reincarnations (Ney, Kokutan) there are also instances where they aren't (Rin Miroku, Lilith). So, the twins Adam and Eve could have become Maria's twin children, then died and reincarnated as Adam Moonlit and Eve Zvezda.

      Also, to address your other point, Adam Moonlit is 17 by Project Ma, and the Heavenly novel states Maria gave birth to and fled with her twins "ten-odd years" before Project Ma, so there's a bit of leeway there.

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    • The implication of the time loop is that everyone is going back to their original selves, because the implication is that Irina was originally Alice Merry-Go-Round. Thus, Adam becomes Adam Moonlit and Eve becomes Eve Zvezda, their original selves. 

      Additionally, the idea is supposed to be that they'll be doing this repeatedly. If Adam and Eve don't become Eve Zvezda and Adam Moonlit again, they won't become Adam and Eve again and the Re_Birthday won't happen (presumably, I mean there's plenty other holes in the loop anyway with the "the gods are dead" thing...)

      iirc we are not actually saying that Alice is Eve Zvezda and Adam Moonlit's mother. (well, she's Adam's mom but.) The sentence is likely referring to that, but since no last names are included it's also a possibility that Kiril was saying "once again she'll become Adam and Eve (the irregular twins') mother."

      There is no confirmation that Adam and Eve reincarnated as the irregular twins Maria has before Project Ma. At any rate, the irregular twins could not possibly be (with the information we have as of this writing) Adam Moonlit and Eve Zvezda straight-up, as you pointed out. It's possible that they are reincarnated into them later, but that's just a theory.

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    • tldr; the time loop is still nebulous and weird and pray for an OSS novel that clarifies it.

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    • Wait so is it ok to post santa claus disambiguation and the wood cutter page aswell as the minor charaters and contributors?

      Also if no one else is gonna add the character section to the four endings series then can I atleast?

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    • Santa Claus disambiguation is fine.

      Hold off on the woodcutter murder page. I'm still on the fence about whether we should be making one and there are a lot of spelling and wording errors on it (including a red link) besides

      Contributors need to have some things fixed (specifically, it's "began" not "bagan" and "masterizing" isn't a word and I'm not sure what the word you meant was)

      You can post the minor character sections except the Musupi daughter.

      And, feel free to add character sections to the four endings series.

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    • In reference to the quote Greek Telepath provided, I am with Octo in saying I think the Adam and Eve mentioned may not be Zvezda and Moonlit since there are no last names attached. What I said about Irregulars I realize now was incorrect in that they mostly reincarnate to be irregular, but still they often reincarnate to a character based off the same vocaloid, except in Ney's instance where outside factors contributed to her circumstances. Even after MOTC goes through the loop the character she becomes Alice, a Miku based character.



      I was under the impression that Alice becoming Irina was implied (it would have to happen for a loop) it had not yet been clarified how/where/when this happened, leaving it up to interpretation for the moment and later clarification. If they have the same soul, wouldn't there have to be something that transferring Irina's soul from Alice to Irina? Or some magical event? With the need for something to transferher soul, I assumed either that it must be needed for Adam and Eve as well if they were to become Adam Moonlit and Eve Zvezda, or that they were not part of a permanent loop. As in, after turning into the irregular twins they eventually got into the fourth period or something else happened to them. The song Madam Merry-Go-Round implies that she is the only person stuck in the loop, so I do no see why they should be.

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    • Maybe I'm alone in this but I think it would be safe to assume the irregulars are Maria's children and eve was the one who got drowned.

      (Are the Le corbusier and Balledold family pages ok to post?)

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    • I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding what you're saying anon, but I don't think you've entirely picked up on what Octo is saying. Adam and Eve are most definitely in the loop themselves. Everyone in the Court Ending is stuck in the loop, the story is very clear on that.

      The question is not "Do Adam and Eve the irregulars in heavenly become Adam and Eve Moonlit in the loop?", because we know at this time that must happen because the nature of the loop is that everyone becomes who they were originally (as far as it's described currently, it's a complete reset where everything happens the same as it did before--the idea that they could have somehow become someone else is a remnant of when we thought it was time travel). The question is more, "were they Maria's irregular children before they became Adam and Eve Moonlit?".

      We know already that Adam is her child, so there's no problem there.

      The thing that's up in the air is, when Kiril says that Irina will become Eve's mother, is he simply referring to the fact that she will eventually become the mother of the irregular Eve way in the future during the end of the world? Or is he saying that she was somehow Eve's mother as Maria in OSS?

      It doesn't seem safe yet to assume either way imo, there's too much guesswork on how that would have happened.

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    • Oh, thank you, that clarifies much! I did not realize that the loop specified that the others than MOTC/Maria/Irina had to keep looping through their previous lives. 

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    • It was everyone caught inside the Re_birthday Adam and Eve started, i.e. everyone in Evil's Theater at the time (Gammon, Adam, Eve, and Irina)

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    • Just so you know I've tried asking mothy a few things and he's stated that he won't answer them if it's in spoiler territory, which probably means it will be answered later in a novel or song. Some of the things were if Lilien and Rajih got married and who Lali is. He has stated he wanted to do a Lukana song so maybe the answer will show up there and Lali might be revealed in a future CL song.

      I was thinking about making a Barisol family page but it all seems to confusing for me with this whole avatar thing.

      I noticed a thing with the Donalds in that they gave Asmodean independence, so is it safe to assume they are the asmodean imperial family?

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    • That's gonna be a no on the Donalds. We don't know who's ruling Asmodean after its independence, if it's the Donalds or if they were replaced by some other family. 

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    • Ok, still, can i post the balledolds and le corbusiers?

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    • The Le Corbusiers and Balledolds need proofreading, spelling and grammar errors (and there might be a little too much info on them for a family page.) I can post both when I get back from work. (Also Ma's name may be based off Project Ma but she's never, ever been referred to as Mem Aleph so I'd change that section title)

      Also, I was apparently proven wrong on the Donalds in the next Evil Food Eater scene, so we actually can assume they become the Asmodean imperial family.

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    • Now that Octo mentions it, I wonder who Gammon became after the Re_Birthday... during the OSS era there was no Gackpo character.

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    • I have a feeling the Loop Octopus clan is going to play a role in that, or rather, Gammon playing a role in it.

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    • Why would he not just become Gammon again? The implication I got from the Clockwork Lullaby album is that it's literally just a direct repeat of events (ex, Irina becoming Alice isn't a result of some weird random time travel insertion, but a result of her actually being Alice in the original Evilious).

      Unless you're speculating on if Gammon was actually someone else reincarnated from OSS.

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    • Again, if that was true, then how does Alice become Irina? They are represented by different vocaloids. There is some connecting event that we are missing here. 

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    • Er, while it's true that we don't know how Alice becomes Irina, that doesn't change the fact that what the anon said right above you is true, the Clockwork Lullaby album implies that it is some kind of repeat of past events and not time travel. Us missing the event that turns Alice into Irina doesn't mean Gammon will be in the OSS period instead of reincarnating into his old self. And the fact that they're different vocaloids means literally nothing, Irina has been represented by different Vocaloids in the past just by what body she's using or in at the time (Iroha, Meiko, Miku.)

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    • There are theories in fandom, though they are theories, anon. Just because we don't know exactly what happened doesn't mean we can ignore that the album is saying that she was always Alice.

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    • The fact that Gammon can see into the past means something, right? That is, if you know what I mean.

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    • What are you implying it means?

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    • 112.200.29.1 wrote:
      The fact that Gammon can see into the past means something, right? That is, if you know what I mean.

      same anon: I mean, Gammon can't see to the past unless it was actually his own memories surging back through Purple Dreams.. though, it is only a theory

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    • I disagree. Gammon's purple dreams involve more than just the OSS period, if the albums are to be believed (in fact, he doesn't mention anything from OSS at all). In particular, he states that he can occasionally use them to help MA with her plays (such as the Lunacy of Duke Venomania). It's unlikely that he was present in every single time period that his dreams harken back to. Furthermore, none of the other characters who were reincarnated have such a gift. The closest we get is Rin in the Tailor novel, but her dreams are not characterized as being purple dreams like Gammon's are.

      I think it's just that his dreams manifest in a weird way. Mothy hasn't really expanded much on how the prophetic dreams actually work.

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    • I don't know if this will help that much, but the Tailor novel brings up the possibility that Purple Dreams allow people to see into parallel worlds/alternate timelines - Behemo says that Kayo probably saw what would happen to Enbizaka if she didn't feign insanity when murdering Kai.

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    • Maybe the Loop in Loop Octopus is because their purple dreams allow them to see iterations in the loop

      Not sure if mothy would have planned ahead that far though

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    • I don't think it's too far fetched to say mothy didn't plan that far ahead. He probably had the Court Loop ending planned out ever since he released Madame Merry Go Round. He probably just didn't have planned how it was going to happen. 

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    • Uh guys mothy just tweeted  that he will be releasing a new novel by next summer comiket which will include a "music card". He asks his fans what they would want the most giving the choice between Original Sin Story novel, Banica's ending novel, three heroes story, or simply releasing another album. Half of the votes have gone to Original Sin Story novel.

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    • Misstress, he tweeted that IF he releases a new novel, he's going to include a music card. And by the way, there is an entirely new forum post dedicated solely to this topic, so you're a little late on getting the word out here.

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    • Price has clarified that the Court ending is not a time loop, and is instead a separate repeat of the Third Period. Corrections have been made to the appropriate pages, although I wanted to ask, should we assume that Irina originated as Alice in the beginning?

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    • Yes because Adam's motivations as Gear are because Master of the Court was his mother which means Irina was Alice 

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    • Price isn't saying anything we didn't already know and discuss a couple messages above in this very thread (and moreso in part 1)

      Yes we're assuming Irina originated as Alice. Yes the Court Ending was not a literal case of going back in time (at least not to the original OSS proper, especially as the Court Ending brings them to a world "without gods" for whatever that means.) That's what the Clockwork Lullaby Album suggests. 

      Of course, we don't have to be overly specific about it or try to make sense of it in any way. Mothy's likely working on an OSS novel and some of the answers may be in there.

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    • Alright then. If there are no more objections, I'm giving a pass on making the appropriate changes.

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    • I want to specify because I worded my response weirdly that this doesn't mean that time "rewinding" wasn't involved at all in the Court ending, because we do have mention of time "going back" in the song and in the album. But it seems like time rewinding created a different world entirely for them, somehow. The idea is just that the "stable time loop" that some people were originally theorizing happened, me included, has been thrown out for the moment as it would make even less sense than this and it's been referred to as a separate world.

      Again we shouldn't try to explain it when the story itself hasn't really done so, but yeah

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    • @Misstress of the Heavenly Yard where have you heard of "Lali"?

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    • See, I wasn't thinking of it as a literal loop but more of a... Since everything is happening in such a similar fashion, more of a cycle? A life cycle doesn't literally go backwards, for instance...

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    • 2602:304:B197:E2A0:C453:5818:8508:8600 wrote:
      @Misstress of the Heavenly Yard where have you heard of "Lali"?

      Lali was mentioned in the mothy album, we don't known anything about them other that they were a Lucif.

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    • For transparency, I'm giving Nyoze being represented by Gackpo a pass since it's stated he once looked identical to Gammon before his face change.

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    • A FANDOM user
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