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  • This is a thread for discussion on the Deadly Sins of Evil: Master of the Heavenly Yard novel. All comments, theories, and discussion of info related to this novel goes here. Please keep all replies concise, productive and civil.

    See the previous iteration of this thread for further discussion.

    INFOMINE DIRECTORY

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    • Another thing I'd like to bring up: Who is the Graveyard Waiter? It can't be Lilith, since it's implied she only got her will back when she met Gretel around EC 990.

      I feel like it's Gretel. My reasoning is the following:

      • Lich can make bodies and could have easily made one for Gretel
      • Gretel and the Graveyard Waiter have the same haughty temperament
      • The Graveyard Waiter was spotted with Ma at Evil's Theater
      • Gretel gave Lilith her body; assuming Lilith didn't change clothes, this means that Graveyard Waiter has the appearance of the Waiter we all know and love
      • Gretel, having served Banica within the Glass, would definitely know her true story

      The points contradicting this are:

      • Lich claims not to know the Graveyard Waiter personally
        • He could be lying, or he really just doesn't like Arte that much and disavows connection with her
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    • I like this theory~ However, what about the Servants, in Capricio Farce? They both appear. And I agree Waiter can't be Lilith, because MA would most certainly realize if Lilith tried to do two things at once.

      What if it's Rilliane's soul that got sucked into the mirror? As far as I'm aware (creeping forums and the wiki) Lilith is supposed to be Rilliane's incarnation, not that she is. 

      -Prussie

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    • A little clarification, anon. We know that Lilith is Waiter, as in the Waiter that showed up in Capriccio Farce. Riliane reincarnated as Lilith, then Lilith became Postman, whose body was "broken" somehow to make her essentially catatonic, and then Arte gave her own body to Riliane (receiving another one from Lich,) which is how Riliane was able to start talking and emoting again as Waiter.

      That's all exposited pretty clearly.

      Greek is talking about the waiter that serves Gallerian in the Graveyard Restaurant. We originally believed this waiter was the same as the Waiter in CF, but the timeline of Waiter coming to be makes this impossible. I think the only reasonable explanation is that the Graveyard Waiter is Arte, Lich's claim that he barely knows her aside (like GT said, he might just not like Arte.)

      If the Graveyard waiter was someone unrelated, it wouldn't make sense that this person was later spotted with Ma at Evil's Theater but is never mentioned as being there by anyone else.

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    • Oookay, thanks for the clarification~ I've stayed up late being confused about that, not gonna lie~ Lich and Arte seemed to be on alright terms in the infomines Price did-but the end of the world probably changed a lot of perspectives. It's also possible Lich didn't know Gretel as well at the time. I have people I associate with, but I wouldn't claim to know them. (Friends of friends etc)

      Wouldn't MA realize that Postman got a new body though? Did she just not care at that point? (This is another thing that has been confusing me)

      -Prussie

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    • Lilith explicitly hid this from Ma. She likely dressed up as Postman whenever Ma was around.

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    • But in C.F aren't they in the same room? Even if they weren't, surely MA would have heard of a 'Waiter'. Especially one that saved an intruder (that took her position as Gardner). I find it hard to believe that she thought Waiter just showed up, and if she did, she'd make an effort to know who/what Waiter was. She had her fingers in eveyones pie and manipulated all the inhabitants. -Prussie

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    • Regardless of whether or not this makes sense to you, this is the explanation that mothy has provided. Perhaps Waiter put on a show of being a different person. Maybe the events in CF didn't happen as described (wouldn't be the first time song canon differed from book canon). The logistics of it aren't explained, but it's pretty clear that Waiter put on a pretense of being Postman after getting a new body, as it's in her Postman guise that she kills Ma.

      So Ma wasn't the master chessmaster that she thought she was.

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    • It's possible that Ma thought Waiter was just another name given to Arte; Arte was the Graveyard Restaurant's "Waiter" after all, if we're correct in assuming so, and Waiter was given Arte's body. Maybe Arte and Waiter were careful to never be in the same room together when Ma was around, and they convinced (at least) Master of the Court not to talk to Ma about it (or they lucked out in Master of the Court never bringing it up to an extent Ma would find out)

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    • Alright, thanks for everyone's input. I'll be opening this discussion for 12 more hours before implementing the information that Graveyard Waiter was Arte, and that Lilith took on the identity of Waiter after getting her body back while still being "Postman" when Ma was around.

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    • It is also possible, though, that while Ma knew that Postman was Waiter and that Waiter was responsible for saving Gammon, she didn't realize that Postman had regained her will and ability to speak. Postman pre-becoming Waiter was implied to be capable of communicating nonverbally and (I think?) of making minor secondary decisions.

      But yeah, all of this is with the assumption that Capriccio Farce's meeting is very stylized from how it actually happened. After all, there's nothing stating Waiter was there--we only get one line from her that elaborates on Gammon's narrative, and she takes part in the little recitation thing at the end which I assume is not something that would have happened in reality. It's not like with Ma and Court, where Court speaks to her directly.

      Edit: sorry didn't see ya there GT ;w;

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    • I agree, Capriccio Farce is heavily stylized in the way it's told. I honestly don't think it's a literal meeting wherein everyone who sings in the song is actually in attendance (after all, we get a line from Gumillia whom we know never actually left the Hellish Yard).

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    • True~ I just didn't know whether or not there was another piece of matierial that clarified on the meeting~ I just thought of something else, what if 'Waiter' was just assumed to be the Awakened Mirror? Like, Lilith saw Gear and Doll Director and capitalized on that? Thanks for the help and patience everyone~ Prussie

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    • I'd also like to point out that irregular is both present in the song and is pretty intentionally made to look like allen with his outfit and even has some visual references to re_birthday, which we now know is all completely off the mark. so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that not everything pictured in capriccio farce is reliable :b

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    • All good points (and going with anon's statement about the "awakened mirror" thing, a third possibility is that Waiter was impersonating Marie and basically leading two identities to Ma. > >) 

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    • On a different note, besides Mikael, Irina, and the Purple-Dream users, are there any other known (or theorised) inheritors? And since it was 'inherited' from the 2nd period (Blackbox L), would the Body-Swap be an inheritor trait, or just really advanced magic?

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    • Re: body swap, we don't have confirmation either way. It looks more like a learned trait that very powerful magic-users can accomplish.

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    • Possible inheritor theory- Eve is the inheritor of Elds? Helds? lightning magic. To my knowledge, there's no mention of Held using lightning magic. However the in-verse rumor about the Zvezda's having his blood seems to be pretty important (to me) given the new information we have about 'inheritance'. Not only that, but Elphe's were made in his image, it makes sense to me that an Elphe would inherit a special ability. Plus, Eve's ligntning magic was especially strong/rare. (The same argument could be made for her hypnosis)

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    • Yes, the Zvezdas are known to be incredibly powerful, with the power to "manipulate the minds/hearts and bodies of people". This can be seen in Eve: she can hypnotize people (heart) and transform people in her image like Mikulia (body).

      Aside from this, she has lightning magic, which is something Levia is known to have. It would make sense if Held has lightning magic and just taught it to Levia as well as passed it onto Eve. Plus, Eve can use the Swap Technique, a high-level spell; she's noted as being the most powerful witch in recorded history, so she's insanely powerful, enough to be comparable to a demon.

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    • Also, let's settle this once and for all: Is the mysterious boy in Re_birthday Allen?

      My vote is yes, for the following reasons:

      • The title of the chapter where Allen and Riliane start making a new world is called "Re_birthday Truth" (as in, the truth of Re_birthday)
      • We know Black Box purifies souls, although maybe this Black Box is different in terms of purification
      • The blue and red chains are mentioned in the Heroes chapter of the novel
      • "Irregular" is depicted in blue and red chains in Capriccio Farce, meant to imply a connection with both the boy in Re_birthday and Allen
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    • I don't think the Mysterious Boy is anyone at this point, tbh. I think it's all just an allusion to a bunch of different events, since the one around where the chains was actually mentioned in the novels was Kyle given that's a line he says directly out of Handbeat Clocktower. Unless you want to argue Kyle is an Irregular, I don't think this counts as they appear nowhere near Allen.

      As well, none of the events are particular to Allen. It might even be Adam or Hansel, we just don't know. I think the chapter title, as well, is misleading given it's split in two part: RE_Birthday AND Truth, not necessarily the Truth of RE_Birthday. Note that the Truth half doesn't even address what RE_Birthday means, but rather the truth of the world. We have no way of knowing if Allen's soul was purified, or if everyone was simply reincarnated.

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    • I agree with anon. Especially with the chapter title--it seems less "the truth of the song Re_Birthday" and more "the truth of what the Re_Birthday that Irregulars can perform is". I think the song is so old that it's not strictly canon anymore, because it's clear a lot of mothy's ideas have changed, and it would be irresponsible of the wiki to try and incorporate it using circumstantial evidence.

      Plus, purification in a BlackBox is specified as erasing who they are and making them a blank slate--I don't think we're supposed to take that as what happened in the song.

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    • Alright, thank you for your input. I agree with you now; I don't think it's safe to assume Re_birthday is strictly canon.

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    • Unless anyone else had any thoughts on that, I wanted to get some of my thoughts out of the way for something else. Specifically the last chapter of the Heavenly novel, which pretty explicitly connected Unlock City to the Evillious Chronicles. I think that this means we need to make an article for the Unlock City novel. I'm bitter that nobody else thought a book that had Evillious.net in it was worth mentioning on this wiki.

      However, as psyched as I am about that, I don't think we need to add a bunch of new pages for the Unlock City content. The way it looks currently, Unlock City is not actually part of the Evillious series--for one thing, it was released under completely different publishers, so not only does that seperate it pretty heavily from the other titles, it's extremely unlikely that the old cast of Vocaloid characters are going to appear even if another book is released. Furthermore, mothy claims he made 12 Evillious novels (not counting databooks) which doesn't include Unlock City, meaning he himself does not consider it part of Evillious.

      The way he's been presenting it right now, EC as a series "ends" with the Heavenly Novel. So it looks to me more like Unlock City's series (if it becomes a series) is distinct and just happens to be linked to EC by this one point in chronology, which takes it a little out of our scope as a wiki. I'd personally find it more appropriate if there was a wiki for Unlock City that we could be affiliated with, but we'd have to see if mothy releases more content to be sure about any of this.

      And this is all just me saying we don't give ourself tons of more work by adding new locations, organizations, and character pages that wouldn't be related to 95% of the rest of our articles. If everyone's cool with that, great 0o0/ just wanted to lay out my reasoning.

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    • Oh yeah! I saw it on TV Tropes regarding the connection! It doesn't seem to reference the characters from EC though.

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    • I think the two just reference each other. A lot of authors are self-referential.

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    • What about starting a paralell (did I spell that right?) universe page and including 'Unlock City'. It seems that it takes place with 'Ten Minute Love' so if a paralell worlds page is to much, mention something about it being connected? That way the connection is acknowledged, but it's not bogging down the wiki?

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    • I think something about that would be a good idea, yeah. I don't know about a parallel universe specifically since this might not be a parallel universe so much as a new continuation of the old universe, but a page for what happened after the end of the Third Period doesn't sound out of the question to me. (And this means we can make a page for Ten Minute Love actually)

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    • What does everyone think happened to the souls who weren't in Evils Theater when the Re_Birthday happened? Did they join in the loop, or are they just chilling in a destroyed world? It can be assumed the people don't need to be there for the loop to happen. (Levia-Behemos resurrection). I think it's the second one. That or different forms of them are in the new world (similar to reincarnation).

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    • I'm just a little uncertain of all that you're saying, but I think it's the last thing you mentioned.

      It doesn't explicitly specify what happened to them, but I believe the world itself was remade (so no destroyed world to chill in) and the book does say that only the people in Evils Theater were being reformatted for the loop. So others probably reincarnated (in some sense) in the new world.

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    • I'll clarify with 'What does everyone think happened to the souls not mentioned in the Endings?' It makes most sense for them to be reincarnated in the new world, but what about those in the other Black Boxes? Were they reformatted in their own loop, or in the new world? (Sorry, I'm terrible about over analyzing. Mothy's love of ambiguity will probably send me to an early grave)

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    • Ah, well I don't think that anyone else was in any other Black Box by the end of the story (except for Banica and co, who we know what happened to them.)

      Everyone else was likely reincarnated/reformatted into the new world.

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    • Are the CD booklets not canon? Hale was sucked into a Black Box, and the Lucifenians/Tasans were sucked into one as well. Those could have escaped, because Kyle and Chartette got out, but mothy doesn't say. Just that they lost their will to fight. Edit: Nevermind, I went back and reread that section. It seems the Tasan/Lucifenians did get out.

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    • They probably got out with the Tasan party and Lucifenians.

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    • What about Hale though? Is it all one Black Box? 'Cause I got the impression they were two different ones? (I do see where it could be one Black Box, though) 

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    • How did you get the impression there were two? There are literally only two Black Boxes we know were activated in such a way, and one of them didn't even really suck anyone up. The only one that matches is the one that sucks up the Lucifenians and Tasan soldiers.

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    • Just the way I read/processed it. But it being one box makes a lot more sense, so I guess I was wrong -shrugs-.

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    • Yes, I think it's a safe assumption that it was all just one Black Box. Most likely Ma made it, since it's mentioned that Evil's Theater is outfitted with technology from the Magic Kingdom.

      Moving on, who's up to draft a page for Luna Hazuki? I feel like she has the bare minimum of characterization (liking video games) enough for a page of her own. (Mistress, I'll be handing this task to someone other than you since you're already working on the Lich short story page.)

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    • I just saw the Demon Contracts page and I think it needs to be redone as well since we know that contracts can be made with humans as well 

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    • Adding on to that, I can't remember clearly, but I think I recall that Karchess didn't contract but Adam just messed with him a little? Or was it that he contracted with Adam but not Seth?

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    • I don't recall where the situation with Karchess was clarified. 

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    • I agree, the Demon Contracts page does need some work. Just put a WIP tag and added it to the list of things that need to be updated.

      What's good about not having any more novels in the near future is that we're not rushing to catch up. In line with this, I'll be coordinating with everyone to update the wiki with regards to the short story about Lich. Thanks to everyone who has signed up for tasks until now.

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    • SO I rewatched the live stream and the only new thigns I picked up was that by the time Allen was talking to Keel in SCaP, Mikina had been taken away by Gumillia

      mothy also seems to keep track of what classifications his characters are, he admits he forgot Keel wasn't an ordinary human while writing that story "it's bothersome"

      Held's child became a her (btw mothy pronouces it as "her" not H.E.R so that settles that debate that i guess) and Held tried to cure that child by creating a black box, but either he failed or he got decieved.

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    • Hmm, that's sad regarding Held. Maybe that's why he treats the spirits like his surrogate children?

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    • I knew Held was a father figure to Michaela and Gumillia but I didn't know he was an actual father.

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    • I have a feeling that's at least a factor in why he was so harsh with Lich

      and with Michaela too, but in a "I'm doing this (scolding you) because I love you" sorta way

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    • Some thoughts, reposted from my Tumblr:

      • It would make sense if Held's kid was a Miku character; that brings up a parallel with Gallerian and explains in part why he treats Michaela as his successor
      • The Zvezdas are said to draw blood from held (they’re probably inheritors of Held) so maybe they’re all Miku’s
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    • He never specified the gender of the kid but I suspected it was the patient for a while. But then i remembered that that father was abusive so I hope not.

      But the question is, does that kid deserve their's own section or should we wait for them to make an appearence? mothy said he might make more novels and there are definitely more songs on their way. Maybe the kid has already appeared and we just don't know it yet.

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    • Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I say we wait for some characterization of Held's child (gender, name, personality, plot involvement) before making them a section.

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    • Good idea, "they became a her and Held tried to cure them" probably isn't good enough. But should probably be included on Held's page, either in trivia or history.

      Speaking of sections, can I put up those sections I made for Rajih's dad, Josephine, Bruno's family, and Tony's family?

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    • Josephine features pretty prominently in the Heavenly novel, so go ahead. The rest are too minor for my liking. I'd like Octo to weigh in on this as well.

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    • Make all of the sections.

      As I've stated multiple times, our policy is that if they get explicitly mentioned in the story they should at least have a section, so that when they are inevitably mentioned on a character article we don't have people saying "Who's this and what else is there known about them?" 

      Not to sound short, but "Too minor for a minor character section" isn't really a good argument here. Everyone here is just as noteworthy as dozens of other examples we already have up.

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    • Ok, I'll put them up then

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    • So the reason I said I couldn't get out more from the live stream was because my timeshift expired and I couldn't watch it anymore but I found a recording of the live stream and I found out more things.

      That the vessels could grant wishes was only something Ma told Gallerian to get him to collect them, they can't grant wishes.

      The girl in Blood Stained Switch is the patient in the beginning of the MoN novel or atleast Levia is the doctor who gave her the medication. So I'm glad that's sorted out.

      Something more about Rajih, I'm not sure exacly what mothy meant, either he considers Rajih a really important character or he's setting him up to have a greater role in something perhaps a short story about him and the girls running away I don't know.

      Mikhail is an inheritor of Behemo, it's not just something he was told, Irina is also the inheritor of Salem. I'm thinking there's an opportunity to make a page for "Inheritors", because you appearently don't have to be related to be an inheritor.

      Keel and Mikina reunited after death appearently.

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    • Held's child can't be the Patient because she killed her father and her father was... abusive.

      and I remember when talking about the vessels, mothy more or less said "they aren't Dragon Balls"

      as for inheritor stuff, the idea it's restricted to family lines makes sense (iirc, Rahab's inheritable ability is the Prophetic Dream, exclusive to humans of the Loop Octopus clan + their descendants) my impression is as they were creating humans, they put their powers into certain individuals that could be passed down (whether intentionally or not)

      but I wonder how Irina of all people inherited an ability from Salem, when at this point, all the "gods" were buried in Sin, Salem wasn't really considered a god (at least one of worship), and she's an artificial human which pokes a hole in the inheritor family line theory (unless it's like HER, in that it can occur naturally by random chance, or as a result of HER-infected bloodlines)

      if DNA plays any role in Seth's non-self-made Ghoul children, maybe he took DNA from a Salem inheritor and that made Irina one as well?

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    • I was considering that it might be a random chance thing, but it's still odd either way since Irina was created seperately and not one of the humans prepared for the world beforehand. Maybe Seth specifically made her to be an inheritor of Salem? Technically, depending on how the inheritors work, it might not make a difference whether or not the public knows about the "god" they're inheriting from.

      Also on the Held's child debate, although I do think they should be mentioned somewhere (with a reference made to the livestream) I do feel weird making a section for a character who is literally not mentioned in any canon materials that we know of. I guess a livestream counts? 0 0 You already know my stance on whether they're "involved" enough in the plot (if they're mentioned, they are involved enough.)

      It's more that my concern is mothy will change his mind on Held's backstory since he hasn't written it up officially. But that's just a risk with a lot of the Livestream stuff I guess

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    • I said you don't have to be related to be an inheritor it's described as "People in the third period who are inexplicably born with powers from the people the lived in the second period"

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote: I said you don't have to be related to be an inheritor it's described as "People in the third period who are inexplicably born with powers from the people the lived in the second period"

      but that description sorta falls on its face when you take the Loop Octopus into account, as they are an explicit family line entirely made up of inheritors, and no one else ever spontaneously got that power outside of the clan (that we know of, and considering how much the point of the rarity of Prophetic Dreams and it's exclusiveness to the Loop Octopus is brought up, I doubt that would happen)

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    • Every member Loop Octopus isn't an "inheritor" the "Inheritor" in this case would be the very first member of the octopus clan who randomly got Rahab's powers

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    • I agree with Mistress, I think that's the implication. I'm also getting the implication that the forerunner of the Zvezda clan was an inheritor of Held, and thus got both hypnosis and transformation powers. Held's pretty powerful as a god, probably second only to Sickle, so it makes sense that the Zvezda's, being his inheritors, would be pretty OP. I'm also getting the implication that the village of Nemu is strictly Zvezda territory.

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    • The song page draft for Ten Minute Love is in my Sandbox; can someone please upload the lyrics into it for me? The lyrics can be found here.

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    • On it.

      Edit: done and a plus a few tweaks (mainly the addition of the romaji name and the preceded by section filled in with mothheavenlyy)

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    • Thanks, Scarletta.

      One thing I'd like discuss, I'm getting the implication that Michelle is literally Eve in some sort of way, like a copy of her spirit data or something.

      This would explain:

      • Her identity crisis and her having Eve's memories and personality.
      • Her heart "going" to that of irregular twin Eve whenever she uses her powers.
      • One of the demons' statements that the Sleep Princess "possessed herself".
      • Ma's statement all the way back in the JoC novel where Michelle looks exactly how she'd expect to look like.
      • Why Ma uses Irina as a "substitute" for Michelle and then tells Adam and Gallerian she's Michelle to manipulate them
        • To expound on this further, I think Ma's original plan was to transfer Michelle's soul into the empty Doll, then have Gallerian and Adam collaborate to collect the vessels of sin since they both care about Michelle. Since Michelle died on the Titanis, Ma revised her plan to use Irina as a substitute.
      • Why Michelle is considered the most "compatible" contractor for Eve despite her bubbly and cheerful personality

      What do you guys think?

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    • Interesting theory, but I don't think there's enough to state it for sure and I don't believe there's any reason for us to be specific on this matter.

      And I mean the first point is kind of already explained in that it being like the equivalent of a demonic transformation; we've already had a case of a human demon causing their possessed to act like them during a demonic transformation (Banica possessing Ney in Praefacio.) The second one, too--if Michelle is contracted to Eve, it's not that out of line that using her powers would cause her heart to "go to" Eve Twin, whatever that actually means.

      I also legit don't know what you mean by the point about Irina, I don't know how that suggests Michelle is Eve. On its own wouldn't it suggest Irina is Michelle?

      Nothing in your points definitively states that Michelle is somehow Eve, particularly not to the extent I'd be comfortable saying as much anywhere on the articles. I'm sure we can list some of these oddities as trivia, though.

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    • Edited my post to be more clear. Thanks for weighing in, Octo. I agree, we don't have enough evidence to make a reasonable assumption, so vague wording and trivia points should be fine.

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    • Yeah, keeping vague sounds fine to me. 

      Also question: now that we have a case of Irina literally possessing Evil's Theater and kinda becoming it, would we give her a location category or Evil's Theater a character category or just not touch that?

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    • we could add evils theater to the vessel page, though I'm sure just mentioning it on irina's page would be fine

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    • Heads up, two theories that tie together. The first is inheritance, and the second is how Irina became an inheritor/the ghoul children got souls. I think the Climb One crew pre-coded a alot of Spirit Data, and it was left in Lunaca Labora. Some were encoded to get special abilities. Zvezda, Loop-Octopus (Rahab), and Asayevs (Behemo) were given complete spirit-data, and had it encoded into their DNA enabling a descendant to inherit that ability.

      These were given human bodies, and sent out to the Third Period. Clans could use the trait, but only some (the most powerful/well suited) could actually be 'inheritors'. Eve inherited Held, (I think) Lukana inherited Rahab, and Mikhail inherited Behemo. The Climb One crashed before the rest of them could place their Spirit data in human bodies.

      I think that Seth used the pre-made spirit data to make his ghoul children. Salem's 'Inheritance Code' was used to make Irina. (Seth is smart enough to recode the data to make Irina the inheritor).

      (I also think Chirclatia was Levias inheritor, but no proof)

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    • My reasons are the following: We already know they had human bodies stored there. Its not a far leap to assume they would pre-make spirit data to stream lime the process. Behemo and Held were experts in biology. Levia & Seth are experts in Spirit Data, between the four of them they could figure out how inheritance would work. And Behemo is arrogant/ skilled enough to insure only 1 person can inherit.

      Seth would have the knowledge to make sure Irina is the prime inheritor, and how to move spirit data into bodies.

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    • mothy himself said it happends at random.

      Anyway, now that we know that bss is part of the universe do we make changes accordingly? Like a character section, songs that come before and after (It should take place in BT 1013 if my calculations are correct) and all that

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    • Another thing, I know here on this wiki we consider the demon and the original earthlings diffrent beings but mothy hasn't. He has made distinctions between Riliane and her reincarnations, Hänsel and his reincarnations, Gretel and her reincarnations, and Eve and all her "indollations" but he has explicitly called the demon and the earthlings one and the same. So maybe we should treat the whole "demon business" as a minor case of memory loss and (for example) on personality we just put in something like "During his years spent as a demon, Salem had no will of his own but still retained some of his old traits such as" and so forth.

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    • Hmm, that's true, the narration refers to them as one and the same. It's like they used the "Demon of __" as an alias while still retaining their identities.

      I hereby give my support of the merging of the earthling pages and their respective demon pages. We pulled that off with Rahab and Seth, so most definitely we can do it here. If you support the merge, give this post kudos. If not, explain why you disagree in the replies below.

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    • Also I feel like i have to repost things and clarify them, (as I said in my second infomine) "her" is officially not pronounced as an acronym. When talking about Held's child mothy said "her" as in the english word ("haa" not "eichi ii aa") so "an her" is grammatically incorrect.

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    • So we're sticking with H.E.R. for Hereditary Evil Raiser Syndrome?

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    • You mean as in H.E.R will only be used for the illness and "her" as a term to describe the ill person? Then yes.

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote: Also I feel like i have to repost things and clarify them, (as I said in my second infomine) "her" is officially not pronounced as an acronym. When talking about Held's child mothy said "her" as in the english word ("haa" not "eichi ii aa") so "an her" is grammatically incorrect.

      It's good that you're clarifying things, but you wouldn't be needing to repost if you made your infomines more organized. Just a suggestion.

      No comment on the "HER" thing as of now.

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    • Ok fair enough, but should I take up all the things I think we need to implement or atleast discuss one more time just incase? (most of the original infomine is on the first thread)

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    • I say we go over things again, but one item at a time. I want to keep us on-topic with the discussion; I don't like multiple topics being talked about over the course of the thread, it's unproductive and difficult to follow.

      Mistress, you already posted regarding the merging of the earthling and demon pages; let's give that topic 24 hours before we close it and move onto the next item.

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    • I don't really have an opinion on the HER thing, but "her" is less of a mouthful than "H.E.R" anyway.

      I agree to merging the demon and Earthling pages given their treatment in the story.

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    • I think the Sleep Princess in SCaP (but not the one here) is intended to be Eve Moonlit still, hence the way she "coldly asked (Allen, thinking him to be Hansel) if he had come to kill her again" as stated on Michelle's page. Her getting released into the Hellish Yard after Ma's death, sealed in the now-empty Clockworker's Doll (now that Irina's become the Theater itself), then giving birth to her new self as Irregular Eve also seems to make more sense than Michelle inexplicably escaping the doll. Also, didn't Hansel call her mom in SCaP?

      It seems like there's supposed to be an intentional ambiguity, especially with the major dissociation theme in Eve's character.

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    • One problem: Irregular Eve was born before the end of the world. Eve was sealed in the Doll after the end of the world.

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      • Michelle was suffering from a crisis of identity and believed herself to be Eve as a result of using her powers, as stated in the novel. Hence anything Eve-ish that she said to Allen or Hansel.
      • Because she looks identical to and acts like Eve in SCaP, there's no reason Hansel would realize it was actually Michelle, hence him mistaking her for his "mom".
      • As GT said, the irregulars Adam and Eve were explicitly born before the world's destruction, and they were born by Irina in the doll, Eve is not their mother.
      • Michelle escaping the doll after SCaP isn't actually that out of line since the "boy" of destruction caused everything to be reset or something anyway, either causing her to be rewound out of the doll or the impact of the blast just shoving her out of the doll like how Nemesis lost her soul for a while.
      • Michelle is dressed as Margarita in Heavenly, the Sleep Princess in SCaP is dressed as Margarita.
      • Part of Gammon's plan involved putting people to sleep, and Michelle is shown doing just that in the Heavenly novel, just like the Sleep Princess in SCaP (albeit she apparently got confused in her motives.) 

      imo there is a little ambiguity, but your theory contains more contradictions than simply accepting that Michelle got out of the doll to resume her work.

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    • Finished my draft of the Re_birthday spell page in my Sandbox. Would anyone mind proofreading it and seeing if there's any more info to be added?

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    • I was also thinking that was why "Eve" was greyed out and lacked color in SCaP. Perhaps hinting that it wasn't Eve, but Michelle so not the true sinner.

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    • Now we know Waiter is Riliane, can we assume that Waiter's other half/counterpart mentioned in Heartbeat Clocktower is Allen?

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    • On the matter of  Heartbeat Clocktower, can we also assume the "lead role" is also Allen?

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    • From the point of view of Evil's Theater, yes, it appears that Allen is indeed the Waiter's counterpart, and this can be reflected on the articles. However, as for the person with the "leading role", I have no comment.

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    • Do you think that we can manage to have a page for the irregular Eve? It bothers me the assimetry, that Adam has one and not Eve. But I think that we have enough information to use so that she gets a page.

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    • Yeah, maybe irregular Eve can get a page. Thanks for suggesting that, Dany.

      Also, for posterity, I'm attaching here the Heavenly novel livestream, recorded by YouTube user MarioGaGabriel. If anyone can infomine it thoroughly, that would be great. Thanks.

      https://soundcloud.com/alejandro-gabriel-11/niconico-live-deadly-sins-of-evil-master-of-the-heavenly-yard

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    • Wait, were not suppose to post this song on any social media unless Mothy gives us the "ok"?

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    • It's the livestream, not song

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    • That's strike one for this thread, Jessie. You should have read my post thoroughly before replying.

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    • that seems a bit much gt, it was just a small mistake and it was corrected pretty quickly

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    • Jessie was already warned not to treat forum threads like a chatroom when each post makes it longer and harder to load, and unlike a lot of users she has a history of making plentiful and unproductive replies. The mistake may be small, but it's emblematic of her behavior in not paying attention to what's actually being said (especially as GT was very specific on what the link was for) and commenting unnecessarily.

      No harm done, but Jessie, please try to be more aware in the future.

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    • So the awakened vessels of sins, do they really exist? RoseOceanZephyr

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    • Doesn't look that way, no. At least, not as "awakened vessels of sins".

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    • The following was originally a comment I made on Master of the Heavenly Yard (kudos to Greek for redirecting me from there to here ^u^):

      The end of the Plot section in the article says "Allen then turns to the moon, instructing the one looking at them from beyond it to awaken." Should we assume that "the one" looking at them from beyond the moon is Luna Hazuki? Allen instructs her to awaken, which may be taken literally seeing as Luna was apparently asleep when Allen and Sickle found her in Sin. However, the article doesn't have "the one" linked to her page, so I became unsure about whether it is mentioning her or not. I think that this is the Occam's razor theory concerning the identity of "the one" beyond the moon.

      I'm aware that all of this may be subject to change based on the fact that the song and light novel are both relatively new and translations may change as time passes.

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    • I personally think that's a reasonable assumption to make.

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    • Alright. Should we take a vote before deciding? I'm curious to see if people have any other ideas as to who this could be. My only other thought was possibly Eve Moonlit, but that seems fairly unlikely. I only came up with her because she has moon in her name (though I know mothy doesn't often think about English names) and she was 'asleep' on and off throughout the series. I'm sticking with my Luna theory, however.

      If it's Luna, we should add her as one of the "(indirect mention only)" characters at the bottom of the page and link "the one" or "the one looking at them from beyond it" to her portion of the List of Minor Characters in the Four Endings Series page. We could also edit her bio on that page, but there isn't much new information to add other than the possible mention of her in the song.

      Edit: I was the anon who came up with the Luna theory, and I just made this account so things don't become confusing.

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    • If Octo and I agree, then it can be implemented. But I think Octo's busy right now.

      For those who agree it's Luna being mentioned, give kudos to this message.

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    • No, even if we're both in agreement, other people have to be allowed to have a say. The only time when that isn't true is when no one else is interested in the topic.

      As for it being Luna, I don't know. Luna never actually "woke up" in the story and she wasn't beyond the moon, she was on the Climb One. Narrative-wise I think it fits, but logistically I just don't know how to match it up. I think it would be safer to wait for the PV to come out, to see if visuals clarify this line any.

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    • I see. Sorry about that, Octo. I stand corrected. I also vote we wait for the PV - the year's almost over, so it's bound to be released anyway.

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    • Some news, mothy has confirmed that since he missed he deadline he will take some extra time with the PV and it will probably be up in march

      Also the album he talked about on the live stream is just his usual summer comiket album release. Also there might be a new novel on the way. He didn't specify series.

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    • I see. On a side note, who's willing to work on a page for Luna Hazuki? I feel that she has the bare minimum of characterization in order to warrant one.

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    • With the trailer for this novel, Daisuke Sakakibara made enough contributions to be featured on the minor contributor's list. I've made a section for him, so is it ok to post it?

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    • I've looked over it. Go ahead, Mistress.

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    • I've seen a lot of activity on the wiki lately, so I'd just like to remind everyone that we still have a lot to do with regards to updating pages with information from the Heavenly novel.

      If you're interested in helping out, please see the Community To-do List and contact either me or Octo to sign up for a task.

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    • Mariatestprofile

      Maria's infobox could then look something like this

      So I bring this first thing up again from another thread, with the revelation that Irina travels back in time and becomes Maria and the old information that "Madam Merry go Round" was MotC's future does this mean we can use Madam Merry go Round as Maria. (We use Kayo in the PV as Kayo in the book and that's all a purple dream too)

      For a second thing: the sections for both Barbara and the patient's dad are finished and I'd like to post them.

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    • I agree that Irina/maria moonlit is almost certainly the girl in madam merry go round, however I'm not sure we can assume that the design in madam merry go round is accurate to the character

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    • I agree with Tobimisa, the PV is too old and too metaphorical for us to assume that it depicts Maria Moonlit.

      I'm not sure what your point about Kayo is saying, we're using the image from the book as her avi. (It's also not stated as fact that the PV depicts Kayo's purple dream, I personally find it unlikely and there's other available interpretations.)

      Remove the assumptions about Barbara (that Irina presumably killed her and that it was after giving up Aybee Cee, you don't need to say those things) and fix the weird grammar error in the Aybee Cee sentence. Also remove the blurb about the Zero family. Then you can post it.

      For the factory worker, again fix the typos and take out the assumptions you don't need to say (nothing says that the man was married.)

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    • So maybe we won't use her as base for what Maria looks like but can we at the very least link to her in the song page and put her in the gallery like "The Envisioned Maria in Madam Merry go Round" I mean the future of MotC as a "Merry-go-Round can't be anything other than Maria.


      (I'd argue we can use that for avatar as long as we don't put in hair and eye color)

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    • I'm fairly certain that most people would notice the icon before they notice the listed eye color, and many people might not make the connection at all. moreover, that wouldn't solve the issue with the clothing featured in madam merry go round

      I still agree that maria should be linked to the song and vice versa, but I don't think the icon should change unless she's confirmed to actually look like that

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    • by the way, I've been thinking and can we really assume that the backstory we were given for behemo in barisol's child is the complete truth? heavenly seems to contradict parts of it pretty considerably. the only issue with considering this is that we don't really have a good answer for what to do about it, since we don't know what, if any of it, is true

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    • imo the main issue of Barisol's child's narrative isn't that it contains outright lies, but that it presents everything extremely misleadingly. Since the backstory for Behemo we were given in Heavenly doesn't provide a counter narrative to every event in Barisol's Child (it glosses over, for example, the event of Levia making contact with the First Period and then going back to the Second Period with Avatar Behemo) I think all we can do is state those parts of Barisol's Child as plainly as possible and hope for clarification later on.

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    • Tomboyjessie, that image is already in her gallery.

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    • DSoE: mothy lists Adam and Eve as a Kaito and Hatsune Miku, respectively. They don't have a surname so I'm guessing they are talking about Neo Adam and Eve. Does that warrant a change to their categories?

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    • I will point out that apparently none of the characters listed were given surnames. However, Adam Moonlit and Eve Zvezda don't show up in the novel so it's unlikely to mean them anyway. That's more persuasive than Karma, so the change is okay with me.

      If we're assigning them Vocaloids now, though, Adam should probably also be listed as being formerly(?) represented by Len due to Capriccio and the SCaP story.  

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    • A FANDOM user
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