Yo, in some respect this is an old topic for a lot of you but I think it's appropriate to make an actual thread for it. While we're probably all going to be busy making edits to the wiki because of the new releases and even the old releases, another issue we have going on right now is cleaning up articles that already exist around here.
This refers to three specific things:
Trimming down on character articles
There is a large list of character articles (which are in the most need of revision) that need to be brought up to the new writing standards we're using for the wiki, as referred to in this blog post. If you'd like to handle any of these character articles, please let me know. Refer closely to the blog post if you're not sure now to trim and revise the article, or feel free to speak with me or GreekTelepath.
The character articles still in need of checking are:
NO MORE CHARACTER ARTICLES ARE IN NEED OF TRIMMING
If that list looks monstrous, keep in mind not every character will be in need of trimming. I imagine characters based almost entirely on songs, or extremely minor characters for example, won't need much taken out.
Cutting down on unfounded assumptions
This relates to the trimming down point above, but can apply to more than just character articles. We need people who are very well versed on canon materials to find instances of wiki articles making unfounded assumptions that were, more often than not, put in there to fill gaps or pad out the article.
An example of this is someone putting that Mariam joined the Silver Sparrow unit and rose through the ranks before becoming general in charge of it. Really, all that part of the article should say is that she became the general of the Silver Sparrow unit, because no information suggests or denies that she joined it and rose through the ranks, or was assigned her own unit, or what.
Hopefully that makes sense. I'm sure other people can think of better examples of how they were tricked into believing something because someone made assumptions on the wiki articles.
Another huge issue is that a lot of our articles were written using translations that were at best awkward and at worst terribly incorrect. This issue is the most egregious in character articles because of the previous policy of word-for-word article writing, and the most appalling on articles that borrow from the earliest translations like Cloture and Wiegenlied.
For this one, we need people who are familiar with the most accurate and clear translations available to go in and correct misinformation in the articles caused by the bad translation.
Since the biggest issue is with Cloture and Wiegenlied, I'm going to point you to this blog which has a complete translation of Cloture's VG version, so you'll know what to fix.
That's about it for now, please let me know if you'd be interested in helping with these issues.
For the translation issues, I've been going through and making corrections when I know there are some to be made, but I'm not terribly familiar with a lot of the character articles and the information that's been put on them.
I do think that trimming will solve most of that though--it's the little details that get distorted the most, and that's the kind of unnecessary padding that would get taken out when cleaning up the writing quality.
Hey all, I wanted to bring up a minor issue with you in the spirit of cleaning up articles.
Specifically, I'd like to propose we delete the Mind and Body pages on the grounds that the two articles are wholly unnecessary, overcomplicate information, and even mislead users.
I think a lot of my reasons for thinking this are self-evident, but I want to wholly explain my position because I believe deleting a page (the same as making a page) shouldn't be taken lightly. So yeah basically I'm sorry this got so long
The Body Article
Unnecessary: All of the information on the body page is information that people know before going into the Evillious Chronicles. Human bodies age, human bodies die when mortally wounded, organic bodies can reproduce, etc. Similarly, it's self-evident that a body serves as a vessel for a soul, and that's already a huge acknowledgement on the soul page.
Any information that doesn't fall under "you learn this in health class," like the reincarnation spell, is covered in more depth on their respective pages and is not in and of itself a justification for making the page. And we also already have a "human" page as well, so you'd think if there's anything specific about human bodies in EC that's different from real life (there isn't) it'd be covered there.
Furthermore, seeing a link shoehorned on the word "body" gives off the impression that bodies in EC are somehow different from bodies in real life, which leads us to this:
Misleading: Keeping this page on here misleads people into overthinking this basic concept of a body as though EC does something different with it, which so far no it doesn't (just with souls.) The page also makes unfounded assumptions, such as that vessels of sin can be lumped in the same category as human bodies, acting as if anything can be an inorganic vessel, and saying things like how the body specifically is responsible for being able to use magic (really a wordier way to say "people in bodies can do magic" which is also self-evident and at the same time misleading when it comes to the vessels.)
In short: The basic concept of a body does not in any way need to be explained; the things that Evillious does with it, like reincarnation, immortality, and the like, are the only things it's our job to explain. Therefore this body page and its unnecessary assumptions should be deleted. Frankly, the page was only added to bolster our page count.
The Mind Article
Unnecessary: Again, a lot of the info in the article is stuff we already know and understand going into the series (unless you're five idk.) People can go insane, the mind stores memories, people have a consciousness and subconsciousness. We don't have an obligation to list these things unless they differ from the real world in some way or lead up to something that differs in some way. And again, the other parts of that page, about things which act upon the mind (like the Court,) are better handled on their respective pages and not enough to justify this getting its own page.
Misleading: Having a mind page as well as a soul page implicates to people that somehow mind and soul are not the same thing. It's not even doing this in the sense of soul vs. brain, it's treating the mind as if it is a part of the soul that is also somehow separate from the soul and is not part of the body. I don't think that it's reasonable to separate the two when nothing in the series really does. In fact, the revelation that souls are technically made of data kind of implies that souls and their "minds" are indistinguishable anyway.
In short: the page is someone's own theory on how the Court works based on poorly translated and now outdated info and, even all that aside, does not aid to people's understanding of the series and its mechanics. It was also only added to bolster our page count.
In short (for both): These pages don't contribute anything but confusion and unnecessary analysis to the wiki, their affiliated links are clearly forced and contrived, and their information is or can be more simply handled on the soul page (which needs to be reworked anyway due to Muzzle.)
I understand if not a lot of people actually care about this issue in comparison to the other things we're doing right now. I'm going to give this topic about a week (possibly two.) If my proposal gets six votes (not including mine) then I'm going to go forward with deleting the pages right away (and if no one's willing to remove all the links that are going to be broken from this I'll do that too.) If I don't get enough votes in a week, I'll still consider that a sign no one objects strongly enough and I'll still go forward.
If someone objects to this idea, please say something now and we'll open discussion on it, but keep in mind that if I or someone else debates your objection and you don't object their objection of your objection (aka if you don't defend your position) I'll consider that the end of it. And of course, if a majority of people object to the proposal, then the pages stay. objection
I'm not a proper member of the wiki but in short I vote in favor. I was baffled when those pages were added to begin with. It's just a contributor to the overbloating problem on the wiki and completely unnecessary.
This is for another time, but on that topic I think that when the character article cleanup is finished, we need to have another look at the other articles (for events, concepts, locations, etc). I think there are a lot of pages that overexplain very basic ideas in the interest of bolstering page count and fluffing up the word count on those pages. For example, on the page about Gumillia's glasses, the page just. Basicaly describes in detail the very concept of glasses. This is something that could be more succinctly explained by simply pointing out how they are different from normal glasses, rather than pretending the idea of glasses is something unique to Evillious.
Since I am cutting down a lot on character pages, we may need to discuss in the future the possibility of returning some characters back to the minor character lists. Specifically, freaking Eikichi who has a tiny snippet of a personality and history and no skills to speak of.
Personally I think that since we went through the effort of making pages for those characters we should keep them. And with the heavenly yard novel he might get fleshed out (as he's listed in the booklet)
Him being listed in the booklet doesn't mean he's going to get a role in the novel. I doubt every single person on there is actually making an appearance in the book.
I think it would be prudent to wait until Master of the Heavenly Yard came out before transferring any characters back to the minors, yeah. But I don't think "we made the page already" is a good enough reason to keep them separate, especially if keeping them on their own pages encourages unnecessary filler just to keep it long enough to be worth it.
I have to agree that I very heavily doubt Eikichi is going to be fleshed out in the novel. But yeah, we can wait.
The argument that "We made the page" doesn't fly since we already deleted two other pages with this thread that someone put to the trouble of making. I don't think Eikichi deserved the page he had, it's just that all the padding made him too long for the minor character page originally.
Regretfully I also submit Asan for being a character that is too minor to have a page.
The event that expanded his page enough to count, namely Allen visiting him in prison, is contradicted by the revised Cloture: Allen claims in the book that he learned Asan was the brother of the executed minister after there was some investigation later--you can argue it was his own investigation in visiting him, but when Allen states that Asan was trying to get revenge on Riliane, he's specifically unsure if that was really the case, which means it's more or less just speculation based on what he heard.
It's extremely unlikely he would word things like this in his own inner monologue if he visited Asan in prison the night before he was executed and heard Asan do all that ranting about how his brother died for a petty reason and the world would be better off without Riliane and yadda yadda.
Our policy with the manga is that, because Ichika is given largely free reign with it, if something in it contradicts the books we prioritize the version of events from the books. I think everything about that prison scene should be removed from Asan's history, personality, and character connections. That leaves him with a stump of an article.
I don't know about that we still have short stories that are canon yet weren't written by mothy. I think that unless it's blatantly comedic and such we should take them as canon if he allows them to be published. And Asan's backstory doesn't really contradict anything, he's just fleshed out.
Mistress, I don't think you're getting the point of what Octo is saying. The issue here is not whether or not mothy wrote it, it's that information from the revised Cloture contradicts the revelations about Asan in the DoE manga; Allen speaks about Asan's motives like he's uncertain of them, which he wouldn't be if he actually visited him in prison.
We've already had cases of contradicting information in the past. In the Lunacy manga, Veno is depicted with birdlike wings in his demonic transformation, although the novel describes his wings as being batlike. Novel trumps manga, and so we go with the novel information.
If anyone has any objections to the above decision to remove the info (which haven't already been addressed) feel free to make it, but I'd also like to submit that we delete the "Black Box Type S" page and redesign the Black Box page entirely to incorporate the new types and purposes that they have.
It'd be similar in style to the Gift page and its list of variations on the poison. We'd have a section for Type E (the original,) Seth's Type S, Levia's Type L, possibly a seperate section for Seth's second Type S, and Sickle's Black Box (the Akashic Recorder)
Yeah i think it'd be better just to smush all black box things together
Although as for Asan, I think I've talked about this before is that if there are inconsistencies, they should be adressed on the pages of either the characters or the manga. Preferably a section on teh manga pages saying "Diffrences from the novel"
And while it does say that Allen only guessed that Asan wanted revenge that doesn't mean that he could've visited Asan to confirm that suspicion.
No comment on the suggestion but on the second thing the way Allen puts it, he's already done/heard the investigation into the matter because that's where he got the information on his brother. It's unlikey that Allen would have visited him and then not mention it in the narrative, considering he caps off the scene talking about his execution, imo
Yeah, I'm sure someone could weasel up an explanation if we wanted to, but I just think the fact of it is that the novel and manga have two different ways of explaining where Allen got the information on Asan; hearsay and visiting him in prison, respectively.
Yup, I agree with Octo; there are indeed inconsistencies. Mistress, if you're suggesting we have a trivia point on the Act 4 manga about Allen visiting Asan in prison, then I'm all for it. But like I said, novel trumps manga, and therefore we should stick with what novel says: Allen getting the information on Asan through hearsay, which he couldn't have gotten if he visited Asan in prison.
I also agree with structuring the Black Box page like the Gift page.
I've been thinking about something since the Muzzle novel came out--although it concerns more than just Muzzle info, so I put it on here rather than that thread.
I don't think that our info is enough to assume that the Heavenly Yard is the Second Period. I think that we will need to at some point make the Second Period redirect into an actual page, and remove all mention of it from the Heavenly Yard.
Here's my reasoning:
There was never anything that actually said the Heavenly Yard was the Second Period. The information, to my knowledge, was based two things:
Sickle and Held calling the Heavenly Yard an "Ended world" and it having once had wilderness and other stuff (Heavenly Yard short story)
Behemo considering the Heavenly Yard like a home to him since Gudonechia didn't exist anymore and the story mentioning that there was once a facility there which Sickle chucked into the Graveyard to make way for his rice fields basically. (Pierrot Short story)
We also know from Enbizaka that the Heavenly Yard is the moon.
But, since all that, we've learned two big things that kind of contradict this:
Gudonechia, or Gudnatia, is Earth. I don't know why it said Behemo was born and raised there (I guess even as a parallel world it counts as the same place) but regardless the text states that Gudnatia doesn't exist anymore. It could be metaphorical, as in "this place is so different that Gudnatia as a planet might as well not exist anymore" but the wording makes the very unlikely.
The Second Period, likewise, is Earth. Which means that if the Earth and the Third Period were so close together, the Climb One crew had to have done some serious dicking around to be in space long enough to lose contact with all the other ships before they got to the new planet. Not to mention the whole size issue that this suggests between Earth and the Third Period if the Third Period is the moon.
All that considered, I don't think that the Heavenly Yard/the moon is the Second Period. I think that it was an okay assumption at the time (despite nothing outright saying it) but what we know now makes it completely unreasonable.
For sure, the Heavenly Yard has a backstory to it and the moon is clearly not an ordinary moon. But I don't think it's Earth.
We don't have to split the pages right now if anyone disagrees with me. I'm fine with waiting until the Heavenly novel is out, because I feel as if that would be the ideal place for mothy to clarify things. It might also be covered in the Livestream (it'd be nice if we could ask mothy there.)
Alright so I've had one person voicing approval and no objections, and this has been a suggestion since November 3rd. So I'm going to assume that people are either on-board with this or don't care either way, and I will be splitting the Second Period off the Heavenly Yard page
The current articles' titles for the demons either are "Demon of ____" or the names of their Second Period selves. I think they should have one format (either "Demon of ____" or the names) for consistency's sake. What do you guys think?
The reason why it's either Demon of ____ or the Second Period name is because some of the demons retain their memories, whereas others do not.
In the cases of those who don't retain their memories and are effectively blank slates after becoming demons (Marie, Vlad, Salem) their second period selves have their own pages and their demon pages just have Demon of ____. In the case of the demons that do, they're known much more for their actual names than just as what demon they are (we knew Seth as Seth Twiright way before we learned he was the Demon of Wrath, for example.)
You're free to argue for merging the demon pages with their second period self pages, but I made the separate pages following our other reincarnation precedents.
I like the composition section but, in addition to what you say, they rely on a lot of by-ear input or otherwise require a lot of effort to fill out, which leaves to long-incomplete pages. I agree with removing it and keeping important stuff like motifs to trivia, yeah.
I can bounce around via random page and clean up the small random articles. For most pages I can just copy and paste from cleaned up pages. The 'Gift' page needed revised last I bounced around, same for Leon's family.
Also, in the Matisia(?) trivia section it mentions it fought for it's independence 776. The U.S fought for it's independence in 1776. Since we know Matisia is based on the U.S, should the relation be mentioned as well?
What do you mean by "copy and paste from cleaned up pages"? Copy and paste the content? Which articles are you referring to? Most of the article cleanup that the thread was originally created to address (like trimming character pages and such) has already been taken care of.
And what about the Gift and Avadonia articles need fixing?
And I think that could merit a trivia mention, yeah.
The Avadonia family article says they were a swordsmen family from Lucifenia. We know Leon's from Beelzenia. Minor fixes like that, that are missed when the big overhauls happen. Nevermind on 'Gift', it was fixed since I last read it.
I follow this forum regularly (even if I dont post) so I have a general idea of what articles have been fixed to the wikis new standards. And the copy and pasting to the articles (that need it, not all of them do) to keep uniformity throughout the wiki. I don't have the time to devote to the major articles, but I can do minor fixes while I'm browsing the wiki.
It does not say they were from Lucifenia. It says they were in Lucifenia. Which they were. For the duration of the family existing as a single unit, they lived in Lucifenia, and considered themselves Lucifenians. Even after Allen and Leonhart died, Germaine considered Lucifenia her country. I do think it could stand a little bit of rewriting to incorporate the brother somehow but on the whole statements like that are accurate.
The point of the wiki cleanup is not to have uniformity, but to have higher writing quality. I can't think of a single situation where it would be better to copy and paste from another page over just actually rewriting the entry yourself. Some articles have different requirements for their content, needing to go into more detail on one topic and needing to be more brief on another. Some people don't want to read the exact same thing over and over on more than one article.
Could you explain better what sort of thing you're talking about? Because I can't really picture any situation where copying and pasting something from one article to another one that it wasn't written for would be necessary.
Hey guys, now that we've infomined the Heavenly Novel and more short stories I'd like to bring up again the topic of removing Eikichi and Asan's pages and relocating both characters to their respective minor character sections.
Once again, I believe that these two pages are bare-bones stumps that should never have been made. Eikichi's page was only created because of his section being artificially inflated by the old writing standards, and Asan's page was only created because of his expanded role in the manga which is not canon to the books and had to be removed.
We held off on removing them because there was the chance that the Heavenly Novel would expand on these characters, but that's clearly not been the case.
I understand that removing articles is a big step, so I'm giving plenty of time for people to voice their agreement or objections.
I agreee on having their pages being deleted and just having them as minor characters.
Also I don't mean to change the conversation and I wasn't sure where else to put this but can Mayrana's art be removed from Irina's gallery? Like yes Mayrana looks like Julia and pretends to be her but she isn't her and her art doesn't need to be in Irina's gallery imo.
I'd like to know how everyone feels about deleting the The School Capriccio of the Dead page. We made the decission to remove all fanworks from galleries a while ago, so I feel this page has no place on this wiki anymore because it is a doujinshi (fanwork) and not a officially published work.
The point of removing fanwork from canon article galleries was that it gave the impression that such content was canon (usually because it was done by official illustrators), it didn't contribute to canon knowledge of the character and thus was unnecessary, and there were issues of it overbloating certain character galleries because people were using them to collect every piece of fanart they wanted to be able to find again. The removal was not done solely because they weren't canon.
There are lots of articles on here for content that's not canon, but has some kind of official backing and thus is relevant to Evillious (like mothy endorsed it somehow or made it himself). As I recall that's the case with Capriccio of the Dead (and that's also the case for the Servant of Evil manga). I don't see any need to delete it.
I'm pretty sure we already had this discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure it's the same reason why Elluka Clockworker's profile is her Lukana body instead of the Chirclatia one--because that's not what she looks like for her vast majority of appearances in the series.
Look anon, I know you want to help and the wiki has had its problems, but not everything on it you don't like is a "mistake" that needs to be fixed. Chill.
The plot summary seems to make some assumptions that could be gotten rid of, and you should probably list in trivia where it was that the song was confirmed to be part of the series since it has no visible relation. Also source the English lyrics.
I'm not sure whether I'm adding this in the right place, but I just uploaded scans of the EC CDs to the images page. I've not editted the backgrouds out of all of them, but would they be appropriate to add to the album articles?
I'd like to discuss alot of things among disambiguations, families, names, minor characters, and contributors.
I'll start with disambiguations.
For the first, since Behemo has been called master of the graveyard before I suggest we either put him back of the graveyard disambiguations or remove that page and just put in "are you looking for the song/woman" or the song and banica's pages.
For the second, I think we should put multiple disambiguations of the same page so the wiki goers don't have to search around for themselves for example:
(It'd also be nice if we could put "Are you looking for" above the disambiguation directions)
For the third we need more disambiguation pages and direction suggestions.
The disambiguation pages we need now are Heavenly Yard (World, location, story), Sleep Princess (Margarita, Eve Moonlit, Michelle), and Riliane (Lucifen, Mouchet, Roses). Possibly First Santa Claus/Santa (Irina, Mayrana, Gallerian) and Pére Noel (original organization, PN, Gallerian)
We need "are you looking for" sections for the heartbeat clocktower page (it's also a location in the theater), Irina and Mayrana (Julia Abelard), Margarita and Michelle (Margarita), Sateriasis (real, fake).
Gonna correct you on one thing, Mistress. Behemo has never been called "Master of the Graveyard". He was simply assigned as caretaker of the Grave Yard according to the Muzzle novel, but he has never been called the title in-text.
As for your suggestions regarding more disambiguations, I think you're overlooking the fact that these proposed disambiguation pages will mostly only be existing due to minor characters or locations. The Royal Palace's Heavenly Yard and Empress Riliane Roses are a minor location and character respectively, with barely any mention in the novels. This also includes Gallerian's title as "Mr. Pere Noel", which is only seen in one line in the Muzzle song and has never shown up in the novels.
As for the others, I think the distinction is made clear enough to not merit "are you looking for" sections. It's made clear that Michelle is using "Margarita Blankenheim" and "Sleep Princess" as aliases, as well as the fact that Mayrana and Sateriasis were impersonating other people (it says so in their opening blurbs).
And I'll still agrue that it's important to have redirections for some of them (Julia and Saterisis in particular) because even though you might think it's obvious doesn't mean other's do. Those direction blurbs are the first things you see on the page so it can make redirecting quicker. (Lilith is also called santa i forgot that)
Aliases are more often that not plot relevant so there I atleast think there should be direction options even if that's all that is shared.
Also with the Behemo info, it means we need to take down the MotG disambiguations page since we don't have disambiguations for two pages that share names.
Alrighty, thank you very much 0o0/ just one quibble, Price doesn't believe that the company name is "I Company", she believes that the phrase is just saying that G was a company-manufactured weapon. Although the "I" being in there is weird
I think we need to be more clear on appearences because I've seen alot of inconsistencies (with certain characters revealed to be the same and all that) This could probably be fixed by being clearer on how list them, like we count corpse, flashbacks, pictured (portrait and archive footage), impersonations, and mentions, direct and indirect, but I think we should start counting hallucinations, dreams, and the like aswell
In the example of JoC appearences should count in Master of the Court, Michelle, Gumillia, and Nemesis because while in reality he's looking at Court and Nemesis, we see them as Michelle and Gumillia in her Hellish attire .
We need to be more clear on how we list groups and classifictions aswell. I'm not entirely sure how it works right now because of inconsistencies but let me give an example of how i think we should list them
If there's a story featuring only appearences by members of the Lucifen Family and they mention Cherubim Venomania it should not count as a mention for the Venomania family or Venomania bloodline but if they mention he's a member of the Venomania Family, then it should count for the family.
Same with classifications, If there's a story featuring nothing but Gods and they mention Kiril Clockworker then it shouldn't count as a mention of Ghoul CHildren unless they specifcally say ghoul children (Unless they say it indirectly like "The human kind created by Seth")
And a thing regarding impersonations, we should probably start including pictures of the impersonations aslong as we clarify it's just an impersonation. Like Karchess is stated to impersonate Elluka when he dresses up, it should count as an impersonation appearence in the Lunacy PV
I thought we did list hallucinations and dreams, whoops 0 0 didn't we just append "dream" or something to the end of those? On the opposite hand, I thought that we didn't count impersonations (or maybe I'm just thinking of galleries. I always thought the galleries thing was a little unfair too.)
I do not believe Nemesis should be listed in JoC, as she doesn't actually show up. It's not clear enough that Gallerian is looking at Nemesis and thinking she's Gumillia, as that clearly didn't happen in the novel. I think it's fair to list Court and Michelle both though.
I think your suggestion on family and group classifications is reasonable, as is your suggestion for impersonations. Reminds me of when Gumillia pretends to be Anne in the comedy manga, she looked exactly like Anne.
It's come to my attention that a lot of our magic pages overcomplicate, oversimplify, or just plain misrepresent the magic system in Evillious. To put it simply, I think we're going to have to give the entire magic category an overhaul.
Back when we were only going off of poor translations and info-mines of the series, it was perfectly fine to divide magic up into categories of the "effect" of the magic. The most immediate example that was brought up to me was Transformation Magic, which includes not only Eve changing Mikulia's appearance in the womb (albeit misrepresenting it as a cast spell) but also contractors' demonic transformations and Elluka changing their eye color.
But the series itself additionally distinguishes magic by how you cast it. Transformating magic lumps a variety of techniques all together as if they are the same spell in the Mechanics section, even though they probably shouldn't all be considered the same thing (for instance, Reincarnation Rituals, which involve moving a spirit to a new body, is said to be similar to a demon making their host's body sprout new features? That's misleading to the max!)
Inscription runes are a method of casting that various characters use (Gumillia's fight with Abyss I.R. in Praefacio, for example) but in terms of how we've organized everything they're treated as just another variant of magic unrelated to the other forms idk.
Not to mention that now that we have better translations and more worldbuilding, we know things about how magic works that we didn't know in the past. For example, Pricecheck's translation of Praeludium expands greatly on how the Clockwork Secret Art removes a demon from its host, when previously the assumption was made that it simply "reverses" the possession just because time was involved.
In addition to all that, a lot of pages misrepresent spells by the assumptions that they make about it, and by their broad application of one instance when we have only one example of it ever happening in-series (for instance, the Reincarnation Ritual.)
If we had a good look at how magic went on in the Magic Kingdom, when there were presumably hundreds of magic individuals who went about casting spells, then we could say "powerful mages could do this" and "powerful mages could do that." But we don't. We have ONE mage doing this, we have ONE mage doing that, we have ONE instance of this spell being used. We have instances where someone can guess at the identity of an unknown magic-user based on the magic that they can perform, like Irina and Elluka. We have the Reanimation Page go into all this stuff about zombies without mentioning that the Demon of Gluttony is literally the only character in the entire series who's capable of doing it.
Right now the assumption is that power level is the only thing that determines anything, but it's clear that there's more to it than that (at the very least, you have to have a talent for certain spells.)
On top of all that, it makes no distinction between what abilities are inherited or inherent to the individual and what abilities can be learned, like how many spells need to be taught while most detection magic seems to be more a case of "if you're magical you can sense magical things in turn. It also doesn't discuss borrowing at all--like Adam and Eve Moonlit borrowing the inherent power of making a contract from the demons. In fact, "borrowing" powers is a common mechanic in the story but we have next to nothing on it on the wiki. (I'd say it deserves a page in and of itself.)
And that's not even going into how the pages make a lot of odd assumptions about how the magic is performed which isn't ever confirmed in-story, or is flat out inaccurate, in order to fluff the page. (Like that whole fiasco with Gumillia's glasses.)
I don't have a simple proposed "fix" to this. I don't know the extent of the actual misinformation yet. But I do think all of the magic pages need to be heavily reexamined in what they're saying vs. what is actually confirmed by the series material. Additionally, we may need to make a new format for magic pages beyond just "mechanics and users" if we're going to be lumping wildly different mechanics all together as if it's the same kind of magic.
On the whole, I think that there has been a (however minor or major) misunderstanding of how magic actually works in the series and it's colored many of the magic pages.
If you have any questions, opinions, or proposals for fixing this nebulous issue, please comment. For the moment, I'm going to focus on removing things that are the most blatantly wrong or unconfirmed by canon.
Also just to bump this, looking over the Magic Tools section we might need to start considering a divide between objects that are confirmed tools facilitating magic and objects that are just advanced technology (the Freezis machine sounds like an out and out cryochamber, for example. And while the Sin has a black box in it that carries out magic functions, is the Sin itself a magic tool or just a spaceship?)
It's kind of a different discussion. The previous discussion was between if Sin should be considerated a magic tool or a location, as it was a spaceship (which the idea was yeah it's a stretch to put it as a location.) That was more for the purposes of if we should reformat the page or not.
Right now I'm questioning if we should consider it as a magic tool or as advanced technology, advanced technology being something we don't really acknowledge on the wiki yet. The Black Box on the Clime One manipulates Soul data, which is basically magic, but the Climb One itself doesn't seem to facilitate magic in any way (compared to other magic tools like the Green Onion or sacrificial octopuses.) It's just a ship with a robot and black boxes attached to it.
And that's kind of with the revelation from Heavenly that magic was explicitly invented by Second Period scientists, as opposed to all magic being advanced technology that looks like magic.
This is a similar problem with the Freezis machine, which may have been used in the Magic Kingdom but idk if it should actually count as a magic tool. Not to ramble on and on about this dfkgksd
I absolutely disagree. I think there is a distinction, and to shrug our shoulders and act like they're the same thing in the story would be lazy. I mean you basically have to completely ignore most of the points Octo just brought up to think that.
Although not a writing quality issue, it does affect a lot of articles and this is as good a place as any to talk about it. There's an issue with our quotes (especially on character pages) where editing the article on source mode causes the spaces between a quote and a paragraph of text to get eaten up. The end result is that the quote gets merged with the paragraph below it and causes an unsightly mess.
To fix this, put < br / > (without the spaces) at the end of each quote in the source mode. This has been done to a couple articles already, but since it'd be tedious to ask anyone to go through each and every article and do it, I've just been doing it occasionally to whatever article I happen to be working on.
Please make sure to double-check dates and our sources on them. I already said it elsewhere, but Platonic's heist was in EC 324, not EC 325. She was captured in EC 324 and stayed with Elluka for around a year. Therefore there are a lot of things said to take place in EC 325 that actually took place in EC 324. I fixed some instances and will keep doing so, but keep an eye out.
I understand that MKL had extremely advanced technology and a magic-user-centered society which Divine Levianta did not, but I also think that there's an issue here in that we have very little material on Divine Levianta as it is. That's obvious when you look at any of the other sections on your Divine Levianta page aside from the history section (albeit I'm sure there is more we can extrapolate from Judgment but idk what off the top of my head.) The first issue that I have with this is how bare-bones the second article will be.
My second issue is that imo it's unfair to say they don't have much in common when we don't know that much about Divine Levianta as a reemergence of Levianta as a country. They're the religious center of Evillious, they continue to import ziz tiamas, they no longer have that Ancient Rome theme but they carry on that Russian/Slavic/Whathaveyou theme, their institutions were prone to corruption, idk. For how little we have, that feels kind of like a lot in common.
How was Divine Levianta reestablished? Did ethnic Leviantans who were not there at the catastrophe (like Lukana's family line) resettle the region? Was it a bunch of unrelated people? A little of both? How do we know they didn't try continuing on MKL's cultural heritage/civilization with the new country they made? We don't know enough to claim these things are or aren't true unless I'm missing things saying they aren't.
Yeah the form of government changed and they lost a lot of what they knew before, but huge changes happened in every country.
I'm not completely against the split but, and especially considering we're given so little about Divine Levianta and its relation to Magic Kingdom Levianta, I'm not sold on them being separate on the grounds that they have "not much in common". Especially when Divine Levianta is going to look really bare bones. But I may just be overthinking it.
I'd like to withdraw some of my objections about this proposal after reading the first Gloom of Held part, wherein Elluka explicitly states that Divine Levianta (or Holy Levianta if that change goes through) is nothing at all like MKL.
I've noticed that the current timeline on the Evillious Calendar page contains a lot of fluff; it's also a bit hard to read given that the scrollbox is so small. In line with this, I've tried making a different timeline in table format in my Sandbox. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts about this.
I really like the new format. Considering that the page is almost exclusively about the timeline of Evillious, it doesn't make much sense in retrospect for everything to be shoved into a tiny scrollbox.
I'm not sure what you mean by fluff though. What standard did you think we should devise for what events go on that list? I notice you didn't include character birth dates. You also included way more of the minor events that happened in Gift than you did for any of the other novels.
It's just a shame that there's no way to incorporate events that take place over several indeterminate years, like the political turmoil Prim caused in Marlon < < Would it be noteworthy to include when he succeeded to the throne?
The Japanese Wikipedia article for The Seven Deadly Sin Series says the kana for 天読 is あまみ (Amami) and not Amayomi. Can someone with a full copy of the Enbizaka novel verify which is the right reading?
If you can find a solid source saying that Elluka calls herself Sleep Princess in what I assume is the Pierrot novel, then I suppose we could consider it. If not, then the suggestion's not going to fly.
I was the one who said Elluka called herself Sleep Princess.
When she first introduces herself to Irina in Pierrot, she's pretending to be Eve having recovered her memories, so I thought she'd used the alias Sleep Princess rather than Margarita. Although now that I check the infomine, she apparently introduces herself with both to Lemy.
However, even though that's probably why "Margarita" was put on her page as an alias, I don't know if that should count since she doesn't actually go by Margarita at any other time and it seems she only called herself that to Lemy for brevity's sake. Once she meets with Irina she immediately puts on the facade that she's Eve and that Margarita has already committed suicide.
On the opposite side, she is referred to as Sleep Princess a few other times, with her becoming Magician being her changing codenames. So that's why I think Margarita should be removed as her alias and Sleep Princess put in there instead.
I'm slightly hesitant about the Crim page because we did say that impersonated family members count but Carlos (aka the second Joseph Crim) didn't really "infiltrate" the family the way that any of the other examples did. Even Irina thought Elluka Clockworker was her sister-in-law for a while. I guess him being publicly known as Crim might count though.
Well, I guess the only real diffrence between a margarita disambigutation page and a sleep princess disambiguation page would be that a margarita page would include the stillborn real Margarita. Don't know if that even matters but I'm fine with either.
Now that both the Lunacy and EFEC novels are done being translated, it has come to my attention that a lot of the information on the Beelzenia and Asmodean pages is either incorrect or outdated. A lot of the citations are also for the books in general and not the specific chapters. If anyone could help with updating the information and narrowing down the citations, that would be great.
Things to correct:
Duke Gastolle died during Asmodean's campaign for independence in EC 212, not during Asmodean's war with Beelzenia in EC 325.
Things to add:
Asmodean and Beelzenia entered a decades-long war up until the Lucifenian Independence.
I think that's too hasty of an assumption to make. Maybe the artist just put a bird there to go with the floral theme. Michaela isn't connected at all to Mikulia Calgaround, and I don't see why mothy would make her the narrator.
Michaela has been known to go beyond the forest and study humanity (how she got the appearance of Eve) and that bird looks exactly like her. (How does a bird fit in a floral themes, I mean the reason the butterflies are there is just to match but a bird?) Like previously stated, Michaela the only Miku characters who uses "Boku" and the miku narrator ends with "boku igai ni inai"
Then there's Mikulia's victims being dumped in a well like she would eventually become. I wonder if it's the same well...
Considering a big point is made of how Michaela has never gone out that far from the forest (she got Eve's appearance by watching her commit her crime in the forest) and your only actual evidence is a blurry black shape and pronoun usage that Eve also used in the Venomania novel, I don't see why we have to assume anything about the narrator without more direct confirmation.
It's not a blurry black shape it's a green bird. Is is really unreasonable to assume she'd dump the corpses in the millenium forest well? I mean if i killed people I would probably hide the bodies in a giant forest. Also the flower seems to be a poppy, the flower of hypnos and thanatos, the greek gods of sleep and death.
Nope, Mistress, Mikulia Calgaround dumped her victims in the Calgaround estate's well. Mayrana says so in the Gift novel:
"Time passed after Mikulia’s death, and at her mansion—it was the dwelling of the lord back then, but now it’s been completely torn down—two white skeletons were discovered in the bottom of a well. Their identities were unknown, and so people among the populace of those days started to spread rumors that Mikulia them and hid them in the well."
We cannot assume the narrator of Flower of the Plateau is Michaela. Octofan made that very clear. I don't know what you're trying to argue.
I personally was under the assumption that the last line of Flower of the Plateau where the narrator differentiates herself from Mikulia "I am the only one who knows she used to be a prostitute" was supposed to imply the difference between the current and singer Mikulia (doll) and the original Mikulia (Greeonio) who was the prostitute.
How ever about another Miku song, since it's revealed that Madam Merry Go Round is Maria, could we make a gallery for Maria and put the image from madam merry go round in it. Also I'm p sure the "someone" she resembles is Eve Moonlit since the doll was based off of her.
1. We don't know the canonicity of that image anymore in relation to the Court End. It is, after all, a purple dream of Gammon's, and his dreams aren't always totally accurate (it could also be a case of mothy revising his ideas or having something else in mind than what the artist did for the video, since the song was such a long time ago).
2. She wasn't literally reborn in the doll body. Irina wasn't even IN the doll body when the Re_Birthday happened. So, no we can't make the assumption that's what the song was referring to.
I'm a little confused about the disambiguations. It was said that we didn't need a page for "Riliane" since even though there are three Rilianes, the third only has a minor characters section. But "Ayn" has the same deal and still has a while disambiguation page.
I figured since we would turn motg into a Margarita/sleep princess disambiguation we could turn Ayn into one for "Lucifenia" (The country, the family, the palace, the revolution, resistance, the king and maybe the capital because there tends to be confusion about that)
So apparently whenever I make an edit using the classic editor (I mostly use it for adding references), it automatically deletes all of the page's categories. Is there anyway of using the classic editor without deleting categories?
Hey should we pull a netsuma and make the page for the Loop Octopus clan? I'm thinking we could put in the Octo family page either by renaming the page or keeping the name and saying "Previously known as the "Loop Octopus Clan"".
This is a bit late, but the Muzzle album timeline has given us a canon name for the Battle of Castle Hedgehog - "The Hedgehog Upheaval". I'd like to propose we change the page's name to that, in order to reduce the amount of arbitrary terms on the wiki.
Just to let people know I have done a page for inheritors and I need someone to proof read it and see if it can be posted. I figure they play an important role enough now. Wondering after the novel is fully translated if Ending boy and genesis girl should be a page (or pages).
This is a bit late, but the Muzzle album timeline has given us a canon name for the Battle of Castle Hedgehog - "The Hedgehog Upheaval". I'd like to propose we change the page's name to that, in order to reduce the amount of arbitrary terms on the wiki.
For the minor characters, I said no because there were inaccuracies on them, but on second wash it looks like it's just Seth's mother's section that needs fixing. You can post the other sections you've completed, I'll revise and post that one.
About some things that relate to nordic mythology in this series
Is it certain that Bruno is named after Sigurd Snake in the eye? Because he reminds me more of Sigurd "Fafnirsbane" (I have seen that name be used in english but in swedish he's named Fafnesbane) Before he was born his father wiahsed that he would avenge him. His foster father wanted him to slay the dragon fafnir, and later when he found out he was going to be betrayed by his father, he killed him. Basically the man's whole life was about revenge, kinda like Bruno. (btw Loki is indirectly responsible for Fafnir)
The Freezis family members in the greed/wrath era all ironically enough have named linked to fire. Loki (God of Fire) Muspell (Realm of fire) Surtr (fire giant and guardian of Múspell, leader of "Múspell's sons") Bindi (most likely based on Helblindi, Loki's biological brother in the myths who is commonly misnamed as "Helbindi")
I think this might be a coincidence but there is a story with a woman named Kriemhilde. She was married to Sigurd but Sigurd really loved the valkyrie Brunhild. Brunhild has Sigurd killed in jealousy and Kriemhild ends up dead in the enssuing events. After all the bloodshed Brunhild kills herself to join the man she loved. Like i sid might be a coincidence but it reminds me somewhat of what Margarita did.
Octo and I have agreed that Ma's commentary from the album booklets (specifically Evils Forest and Evils Kingdom) will be removed from the pages. This includes content and quotes. Ma is an unreliable narrator, as seen in how she says things that are flat-out incorrect (such as Elluka using the Lust magic in Lukana's body to search for the Glass of Conchita). With that, any help in removing the info is appreciated.
On another note, the Hark Sea now has a section on the Marlon page.
I noticed on iTunes that some of the title romanizations are more like the Nihon-siki Romanization, rather than the Hepburn Romanization. 箱庭の少女 is written as Hakoniwa No Syouzo, 10分の恋 is written as Zyuppun No Koi, etc. At first I thought that was just how iTunes Romanizes Japanese songs but in Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night's PV, right before the title appears, the word okizaritsukiyosyou flashes on the screen.
Should we change the romaji of these specific songs?
The iTunes names are an absolute mess and absolutely not a reliable source for names. Anything else, like PV examples hold much more water, though honestly, I think all of the songs' romaji names should be the same kind of romaji.
They'll be done eventually, but they're not really a priority right now since we have infomines from Price, which are already summaries themselves. If you really want them done now, we're open to volunteers.
Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
Hey should we pull a netsuma and make the page for the Loop Octopus clan? I'm thinking we could put in the Octo family page either by renaming the page or keeping the name and saying "Previously known as the "Loop Octopus Clan"".
Or we could make a separate page entirely.
This is months late, but I'm on board with this idea. I think we can just insert information from the Loop Octopus Clan into the first section of the Octo Family page. We already have a precedent for this in the Lucifenian Royal Family page, with information from the d'Autriche family being on there since the d'Autriche family directly leads to the Lucifenian royal line.
Well the problem would be that the Loop Octopus is also a race of people and people who aren't part of the "Octo" family have been Loop octopi. I mean the Octo family page says a member of the clan married into the family.
To clarify, this is what the Lunacy novel says about Lukana:
Lukana wasn’t from a particularly noble family. Despite that, for some reason she carried a style quite unlike a commoner. The gossiping housewives of Mystica would get quite worked up talking about it. They theorized that she must have a “Leviantan” somewhere in her ancestry on her mother’s side.
Given that, it seems that Lukana's mother is the one descended from a member of the Loop Octopus Clan. I'll be editing the page to reflect this.
Hello! Around a week ago I noticed something that I'm not sure if anyone else has picked up on.
Minature Garden Girl and Heartbeat Clocktower share a musical motif. In Heartbeat Clocktower, the motif is at 1:14. In Minature Garden Girl (both its original and SCAP version), it's at 2:28.
The two songs have always been connected story-wise even before all of mothy's additional lore, but I find it cool that they're musically connected as well. Apologies if I'm not the first to figure this out;;;
So this has been brought up as a comment on Nyoze Octo's page, but apparently Nyoze Gamon is the title of a novel by Osamu Dazai, the two words together being from Buddhist Sutras. Perhaps it should be added to the trivia section for both Gammon and Nyoze?
Links to what I'm talking about. You can find this novel under Osamu Dazai's works in 1948.
While Nyozegamon is a Dazai book, nyozegamon itself is the "Thus have I heard" that begins most Buddhist sutras, and I would argue that that is a more important trivia reference than the novel named after it, which bears little relation to either of the brothers.
I'm 90% sure the Octo Brothers' names come from Nyozegamon but I'd like to point out that the phrase in Japanese is written as 如是我聞. Gammon's name is written as 我門 and we haven't seen Nyoze written with Kanji.
There was talk about removing the list of magic users from the magic pages. I think by that logic, we should get rid of the Inheritors column on the Inheritors page, considering how there can be multiple Inheritors of the same god/demon that aren't related. Like, Irina and the entire White Army are apparently all Salem's Inheritors.
When HER is mentioned, should it be with an "a" or "an"? It switches between pages. For example, in Ma's page, it says: "Loki was an HER..." but in the actual HER page, it continually states "a HER". Price uses an, so should I change Hereditary's page?
It's "a HER" because that's how mothy pronounced it, it's just that we've been inconsistent about fixing it.
Price stated that they're using "an H-E-R" for their translations because of the potential confusion in English with the "her" pronoun, whereas in Japanese that's not an issue and "her" is much faster to say.
There's not really a "Twiright family", though. No one carries on his name, and he's never actually fathered a child. Are you just referring to the ghoul children? Because if we're going by that standard, all Evillious humans are Behemo's children.