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  • GreekTelepath
    GreekTelepath closed this thread because:
    Too long
    03:12, September 30, 2019

    Please see the original iteration of this thread here for past discussions.

    This is basically a thread for discussing retranslating names in the series.This is not intended to be a place to quibble over whether you think something sounds better. This is for when you have an actual reason to believe that a title or name has been mistranslated in the past and wish to have it possibly corrected. This thread exists so that these kinds of discussion won't take up space on other threads.

    Do not bring up names that have already been discussed or have solid sources. For example, a lot of the names in the Story of Evil had their spellings clarified by fanbooks and tweets, so there’s no need to retranslate them, even if they sound awkward. Same goes for things like “Gift from the Princess Who Brought Sleep” and “Evil Food Eater Conchita”—yes, they are not quite accurate translations, but they’ve been solidified by mothy and agreed upon in wiki discussion.

    The general criteria I would recommend is listing the original Japanese, how it’s currently translated, and how you think it should be translated (and why).

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    • Misstress brought up in the previous thread that Leonhart's name is spelled as Leonhardt in Act 4.

      1. Do you think we could have a screenshot? 0o0 Edit: Ignore that, saw it on Tumblr

      2. Would it be acceptable if we ask Ichika first if she was going off of anything when making that English spelling or if it was just her own translation of the name? (I'm not sure if this will make a huge difference to us changing it, but it'd be good to know in case mothy ends up translating it differently as I don't remember if he translated it himself in the past or what)

      Overall looks like we're gonna need to change it. I recall someone discussing this kind of thing about Leonhart with Servant before, I want to check into that.

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    • Leonhardt is an actual name actually.

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    • This is a point you've brought up many times for other translations. Something being an actual name is not proof that we need to change it. There's a LOT of names in the series that aren't actual names.

      Now, I think Ichika's spelling is most likely correct, but I still think we should wait to let her confirm it's official. Not because I don't approve of the change but because it's a pretty big one, what with how much Leonhart's name is mentioned on the wiki and alll.

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    • It's written by mothy, I think it's safe to say it's canon

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    • No it wasn't. The manga was written by Ichika. She merely based it off of mothy's work, with his endorsement.

      Like, I'm not disagreeing with the spelling I just would like confirmation that it is official first.

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    • My memory is a little fuzzy and I don't have the books currently with me--was our current spelling for Leonhart's name from the databooks or not?

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    • I don't think the databooks had translations

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    • Considering that's where we got Clarith over Clarise, I am pretty sure somewhere had a lot of Story of Evil official English names.

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    • There was a little segment in the databooks that shared a lot of the official English names, but I don't remember if Leonhart's was one of the ones there.

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    • Went over my notes, and we DID get a confirmation that Leonhart's name is spelled "Leonhart", in the Trinity album. So I'd say, both being equal, we keep it Leonhart.

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    • I'd also like to bring back the Futapié proposal. I know this will be a big hassle to implement, but I feel like it's more correct for the following reasons:

      1. The current spelling leads readers to pronounce it as "foo-tah-pie" (as in the pastry) as opposed to its intended spelling, "foo-tah-pee-yeh".
      2. The name seems to be aiming for something pseudo-French, given that Mariam lives in the France-inspired Lucifenia.
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    • Mothy confirmed in a livestream that "Gudonechia" is meant to be a pun on the phrase "good nature," possibly some irony since that's where Behemo (whom Seth speculates is the source of Levia's malice, for however reliable that is) came from.

      So with that in mind, how do you want to retranslate this?

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    • The "nechia" part is distinct from "neichaa", so I think that should be reflected in the name. I therefore propose "Gudnetia".

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    • you could write "gudnatue"

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    • And once more, Mariam might live in Lucifenia but the name comes from someone who lived in Asmodean. So that argument doesn't fly.

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    • Actually "Gudnatia" might be better come to think of it.

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    • 24.176.2.221 wrote: And once more, Mariam might live in Lucifenia but the name comes from someone who lived in Asmodean. So that argument doesn't fly.

      I stand corrected then. However, there's still the issue of pronunciation.

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    • I agree with GT. "Futapie" reads as "Foo-tah-pai" not "Foo-tah-pee-eh" to me and a lot of others.

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    • GreekTelepath
      GreekTelepath removed this reply because:
      Unnecessary
      10:32, March 29, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • How does everyone feel about using the canon terms given to the events? Going by Price's translation of the EC timeline in the Muzzle PV, mothy gives us the following:

      • Toragay Epidemic
      • Rolled Serial Murders
      • Enbizaka Murderer Scandal
      • Four Horseman Incident (although the term for the Biblical figures is Four Horsemen, so I think we should make it Four Horsemen Incident instead)

      EDIT: Going through the Event Term List, I found that "Toragay Serial Killings" is in fact a canon term. However, mothy also gives us トラゲイ奇病騒動 which Price has translated as the Toragay Epidemic.

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    • Sure, and we should probably just check with all other events if their names are the canon ones.

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    • Toragay Epidemic seems like a term that would apply to the broad infection of people in Toragay with Gift, whereas Toragay Serial Killings kind of gives off the implication Margarita was personally poisoning people by hand (which is probably one of the reasons for the initial naming, and was what she was doing at first.)

      I'm fine with all the suggestions.

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    • Uhm... If the topic about Futapie is not yet done, I'm suggesting that how about placing the pronunciation of Futapie for characters that are Futapie. For example, Mariam Futapie (pronounced as foo-TAH-pee-eh).. Something like that.. I'm just suggesting somehow.

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    • Unfortunately if we made a precedent for that, we'd probably have to do that for every name in this series. Besides which the Romaji part of the infobox serves roughly the same purpose due to the nature of the Japanese language.

      I mean not really in Mariam's case but

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    • Just for clarification: The é accent is there to remove ambiguity. For example, with the case of the character Lady Sué (pronounced soo-weh), the é is there to make sure her name isn't read as Sue. In the same manner, we need the é in Mariam's surname so people pronounce it correctly.

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    • This won't necessarily concern the accent but the translation of Mariam's name is up for debate again now that a user has pointed out  that it's "Epitaph" backwards.

      I can't think this is a coincidence, especially given everything we know. Who's in favor of changing the translation a bit to reflect this possibility? Although all I can think of putting for it is Phutapie at the least and Phatipe at the most extreme.

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    • Why don't we change it to something like Taphpie or Taphpié? It's a more straightforward syllable reversal in English:

      E-pi-taph

      Taph-pi-e

      I also think it looks slightly easier to pronounce than Phutapie. Of course, we would be radically changing a spelling everyone's been used to for years. 

      Thoughts?

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    • I'm all for Phutapie

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    • Taphpie and derivations would be RADICALLY different in pronounciation, way more than any other name contortions we've done in the past. It might be simpler as a name and reversal but that's way too far from the core name for my tastes, especially for an unofficial translation.

      I think Phutapie is fine if nothing else, but I think Phatipe would be best.

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    • Phatipe or Phutapie are fine with me. Phatipe is kiiind of the same as Futapie if you say the latter really fast.

      I have to agree that although Taphpie may be simpler but it'd be way too huge a liberty to take.

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    • late to the party but i'd go for Phutapie

      glad we finally know what her surname means

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    • it feels so weird to change a name we've had for so long wistfully looks at Eldoh, Chikrassia, Freesis... makes me wonder exactly how long mothy's been planning Mariam's story because up till now I've always suspected him of sort of making it up on the fly

      but anyways, I think Gallerian's maid Kacherina is supposed to be Katrina instead

      the tr sound in Katrina could be replicated with a ch sound, and is probably easier than sounding out the T then R

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    • Could also be Katerina (googling brought up ekacherina which is a spelling of Yekaterina). Either way though probably not Kacherina, yeah.

      So, on the Phutapie issue, since it is such a big change and a long-held name, should there be a vote on it? I haven't seen any real objections but still.

      I'd still prefer Phatipe but if all's in favor of Phutapie I'm willing to swing that way.

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    • I was thinking Katerina as well, but the separated T and R wouldn't constitute the che sound in the original katakana, like Katrina does

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    • Were it katrina it would've been spelled as "Katorina"

      But it might be Kachelina, which is a russian name

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    • Kacherina actually sounds like Katrina, Katorina sounds actually closer to Katerina

      idk, it depends-- was mothy looking at a list of names or did he just think of the name and write it down different than how it'd be in the former?

      am i even making any sense

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    • I don't know if this answers your question necessarily but I remember when someone asked him about his spelling of Karchess, he said that he doesn't really think about how the name would be translated to English, he just puts it in Japanese.

      So yeah who knows what spelling he meant. Kacherina always looked weird to me, it does sound like Katrina if you say it quickly. Is it possible there's more than one way to write the loanword-name Katrina in Japanese?

      I also vote for Phutapie, I worry people will think Phatipe is pronounced like Fa-type

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    • LIke i said it's probably Kachelina, a real world russian name

      Were it katrina or Katerina  they would've been spelled like this

      カテリーナ(Katerina) カトリーナ(Katrina)

      Kachelina is written in japanese like カチェリーナ which as stated is a real name, that is russian, coincidently she happends to live in a country based on russia

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    • First off, her name is not written as "kacheriina", it's "kacherina", so already the spelling that you've provided is incorrect for the name.

      Secondly, I already provided an example of the letters "katerina" being spelled as "kacherina". The fact that there's another letter before them (Yekaterina being spelled as Ekacherina in Japanese) does not change that fact.

      So no, it does not have to have been written as "katerina" or "katorina". There is already a precedent available that shows it can be written that way.

      And, incidentally, when I google Kachelina it produces LAST names. Isn't "Kacherina" her FIRST name?

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    • Ffff, my bad. I'm the one who's been spelling her name wrong. I withdraw my objection.

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    • Although the thing about "Yekaterina" and "Ekacherina" still stands. If "katerina" can be spelled "kacherina" there, then I don't see why we can't apply that here.

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    • Actually you know what? I have an even better example. In the Japanese wikipedia page for the Brothers Karamazov, Dmitri Karamazov's fiancee's name is written as "Kacherina". Her name is Katerina.

      There. A definitive precedent.

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    • All things being equal, I prefer the common first name over a common last name. There's plenty of people in the world who both live in Russia and have the name Katerina.

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    • Some people in the Spanish Wikia suggested that Lich's surname could be ArCROW instead of Arklow, as the rollam birds seems to be the Evillious counterpart of the crows. Also the pun it's similar to the Twiright's case

      Personally I prefer Arklow over Arcrow, as the first one it's the name of an actual location (EDIT: interestly its Coat of Arms has a crow on it, too), although we shouldn't deny the evidence. One possibility it's change the character's surname or keep it and mention the wordplay  into the Trivia, as it was Karchess' case

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    • I like either to be honest

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    • I wouldn't mind Arcrow but I don't have a strong preference

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    • I'm as lukewarm as anyone, but I do kinda feel like the reference was intentional

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    • Speaking of Lich, I think we either should retranslate or atleast make a trivia point about "psychopomps" Since Shinigami's can either act like these or be death themselves

      Also I think we need to change Waiter's "Spoiled Girl" to "Capricious Girl" since she called "kimagure shoujo" in japanese idk where "spoiled" came from

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    • Price has that part of waiter's profile translated as "fickle, selfish." I'm sure capricious would still work, but using price's translations has been set as a precident by this point so I thought it was worth mentioning.

      and if I had to guess I'd say it was probably translated as spoiled before because people felt it connected the character to riliane more :b

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    • I think capricious suit best because ya know, capriccio

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    • 1. What about Lich would we be retranslating into psychopomp, Misstress?

      2. I would say remove that "Spoiled/Capricious/Fickle/etc" bit entirely. It is not another name that she is being referred to by, Gammon is simply describing what kind of person she is.

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    • Also from what I'm seeing a psychopomp is just a description of a role that Shinigami can fulfill so I don't know why we would make a trivia point about it.

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    • Him being a death god, though we could atleast mention in the trivia that they work like psychopomps

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    • Shinigami can not be translated directly into psychopomp, so no. And the trivia would be pointless because it has nothing to do with Lich himself--he's not a shinigami in the Japanese cultural sense and he does not fulfill the role of a psychopomp.

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    • Like, basically the point of him being a shinigami is just a pun on him being a dead god. To mirror Banica's dead soldiers. There would be no point in calling him a psychopomp, it would ruin the wordplay.

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    • Also if no one else is going to vote on the Phutapie issue I suggest we change it soon before it gets buried in all the side-tracking.

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    • I vote yes on changing it to Phutapie :0

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    • Bumping so people can see the vote going on 0o0/ 

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    • this is my vote on the Phutapie name change

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    • I'm gonna give this a little more time but I see at least 5 votes yes for Phutapie so if we don't have any objections in a day or so I'm gonna say it's safe to change the name.

      Kacherina also probably is going to be changed to Katerina in a day or so since it's got a direct precedent, unless someone objects.

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    • I've been laid up on doing extensive work, but I see there haven't been any objections or votes for like three days

      That probably means that everyone can feel free to change Phutapie and Katerina. Feel free to also add the "epitaph" trivia to Mariam's page as referencing the Neomaria song.

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    • Kacherina's been changed to Katerina, and so every mention of Futapie has been changed to Phutapie... in other news i'm only a little dead inside

      That excludes mentions that exist only in the link itself (as the general search does not pick up on that)

      I wish there was still a broken link category so I could find what I missed =w=

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    • I want to ask what old god you have sold your soul to to be able to do all that but I say thank you ;w;

      Does anyone think it's time to revive the Tae and Tasute/Tesuta/Táste/Tásute discussion? It's been some time since we left it off.

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    • I'm fine with it staying as Toy, but you can put me as a yes for Tae

      as for Tosuite, those were my suggestions so I ask all of you the same. I can't pick a preferred one, but I think we should choose something other than Tesuta

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    • I vote yes for Tae as well

      Tasute is my personal preference but I'm fine with most of these

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    • I'm alright with tae and tasute as well

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    • I don't see any objections, but it could be because this got buried. I'm going to give this another day and then I'm calling in the change.

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    • So, in regards to Held Yggdra, will the just [ [Held] ] suffice as a redirect or will [ [Held Yggdra] ] be the only working link eventually?

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    • It looks to me like Held essentially drops his last name when becoming a god, so I'm okay with keeping "Held" as a redirect to make things easier.

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    • Have all the demon names been decided? saw a bit of wishy-washyness on Salem and Vlad's surnames in particular

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    • Looking over the Hev thread, it looks like there's general agreement on:

      • Marie Annette
      • Gilles Derais

      There hasn't yet been agreement on: 

      • Vlad [Tsuberushi] (What do we even do with this ewe)
      • Salem [Danbaa] (Dany has found it being translated as Dunbar, so we'll probably go with that if there are no objections.)
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    • Yeah Dunbar works for me

      I might have found what "tsuberushi" comes from "ツベルシ. ジン" or "Tubercidin" unfortunately all websites that attempt to explain it to me are a bit to complicated for me but it's a medical thing atleast. So maybe "Tuberci"

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    • Maybe see is Tsuberushi can in any way connect to Vlad Tepes/Vlad III.

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    • I did briefly think that it could be a connection to Tuberculosis, considering the whole thing about the Gula disease also causing blood from the mouth. That would probably also end in Tuberci, but it depends on if that is in fact a viable translation for it.

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    • Bumping so this doesn't get lost

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    • Question, is everyone alright with us assuming Yuka Musupi is, in fact, Oyuka with the O having been added in accordance to naming customs of the time? 

      And if so, are we changing her page to Yuka Musupi or will it be Oyuka Musupi? I'm not sure if the "Oyuka" version constitutes just a nickname or what. I'm guessing we'll just go with the way it's written on the album with the Oyuka version noted as an alternate name.

      I'm also going to give people a little more time to agree or disagree with "Tuberci" or make other name suggestions, but we're going ahead with Dunbar since I've seen no objections to it.

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    • I don't think it's safe to assume that. I've heard of "O" being put infront of titles or words, but never names.

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    • Didn't someone say in the Heavenly thread that it was common for women to do that in Edo Japan?

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    • yeah, I remember someone saying exactly that.

      also, I suggest someone asking price about the validity of "Tuberci." I'm willing to do it myself but I'd rather the person who suggested it do it since they seem to understand it far better than I do so they'd probably word the question better.

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    • I'd like a source on the "common for women in Edo" thing before we go with it, rather than a single anon's word, if that makes sense?

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    • The person who originally said it wasn't an anon, but I understand the sentiment.

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    • I'm here. The source for it, was a chinese man in tieba.baidu; While making analysis for the names of the cast he threw this info for Yuka. I couldn't find the exactly words he used but certainly in the Edo period we had something. 

      Also i don't know his source but I believe him, since hes analysis was a serious analysis.

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    • Oh, sorry. I would still like a source on that, because while interesting, I'm hesitant to take a single person's word on something like that, y'know? More "better safe than sorry."

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    • Ok, i may have found it.

      It`s on this website - http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html

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    • Seems legit, but I'm still not sure since no other woman was given the "O" honors, not even Kayo.

      Also we don't need to ask Price about everything, the japanese translation of Tubercidin is ツベルシジン(Tsuberushijin), therefor Tuberci is a valid translation of ツベルシ.

      I also found a simplified explanation of Tubercidin, it's an antineoplastic drug/agent. Antineoplastic drugs/agents are used to fight cancer and vomiting blood is a possible side effect.

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    • Seems that it wasn't obrigatory to all womens, but i guess mothy just wanted throw some cultural references.

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    • AHH; Apparently this has to do with Sakamoto Ryoma's wife Ryo Narasaki; She was commonly known as Oryo, and i guess that was the trend.

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    • And the same user who pointed the Women trend also said that this was also common in married womens.

      wikibooks: "お o- is an exalted prefix. It shows respect for the individual or object to whom it pertains." 

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    • Sounds like an okay assumption to make to me, then.

      As for for Tuberci, just because that's one possible spelling of it doesn't mean that it's absolutely the intended spelling here. However, in this case there aren't any alternatives that come up, and the description of the drug does make it sound plausible as a reference.

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    • So is everyone on board then? And are we going with Oyuka or Yuka on her page?

      Also agreed that Tuberci looks legit. Although I don't know how likely it is he'd use a drug as a reference but > >

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    • We were introduced to her as Oyuka so i think we should go with O and leave Yuka in other names

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    • If it's just a sort of prefix, I think Oyuka should be left in other names and Yuka be her name

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    • Kay, just to end this;; O is meant to be an prefix for affection and respect. So whener she introduces herself would be: Hello im Yuka. Whenever someone introduces her itwould be: This is O-Yuka.

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    • It looks like we'll be calling her Yuka Musupi then. I'll give this another day just in case.

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    • Alright, changing Oyuka to Yuka Musupi. Oyuka Musupi can be a redirect but I think Oyuka on its own will have to be deleted eventually, so a lot of links will need to change.

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    • I'm also going with Tuberci in Vlad's case, since I've seen no other alternatives and we have a precedent in Tubercin.

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    • Slightly off topic, but when are we going to add a redirect to Seth from "Demon of Wrath"? Adam may act as it occasionally but he's not really the Demon of Wrath, so mentions of him as it can be manual redirects. Rahab's got one. And I think we should add a Demon of Sloth redirect to Eve too, especially since no one else is anywhere close to being it than her.

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    • Oh! Fixed with Seth, didn't realize that no one ever made him a redirect. Eve's already got one with Demon of Sloth 0o0/

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    • huh, I guess people have been playing it safe cause I haven't seen an actual Demon of Sloth -> Eve redirect

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    • Same, I didn't realize it was a thing until I checked.

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    • So I found out a bit mor about our zeus member's names

      In greek mythology giants exists and most likely some of the members are based on them

      [Gigaty] based on "Gigantes"(the race) or maybe "Gigantomachy" (a war)

      [Grand] is probably based on "Gration" (グラティオーン) so perhaps we should change his name to "Gran"

      Mima is taken from "Mimas" (ミマース) so no change needed

      [Encheri] might be based on "Enceladus" (エンケラドス) so my suggestion is that it's changed to [Enceli]

      [Polrio] might be taken from Porphyrion (ポルピュリオーン) so i suggest it's changed to "Porrio"

      Also given all the other greek stuff, couldn't "guy" be "Gai" or "Gae" after Gaia or Gaea the goddess of earth.

      And ofcourse I'm gonna bring up with all the nordic stuff, could we translate rennert as "lennart" instead I haven't really seen "Rennert" as a first name but Lennart is a common swedish name.

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    • Bumping so it doesn't get lost in the activity feed

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    • First I'd like to point out that almost all of the characters you listed are not members of Zeus but members of the Tasan party, so your theme naming ideas might not apply.

      With that in mind:

      Gigaty: Not only haven't you shared the Japanese spelling of the reference words but you haven't listed a different spelling for the name in question. This is a retranslation thread for a reason. What are you suggesting we do about it?

      Grand: I don't see how we can make that leap. Guratioon does not have an "n" in the middle. It could easily be referring to several other things that start with the syllable "gura"

      Encheri: Possibly. I'm worried that Enceli implies a "se" sound instead of a "ke" sound, but then "Encheri" implies a "che" sound too. So I'm neutral.

      Polrio: Disagree. Again, like with Grand it only has two syllables in common with the word you're claiming it's referencing. Could be any number of words that start with "poru".

      Guy: Seems legit to me (I'd go for Gae), but I'm a little hesitant because Gaea is, of course, female, and unless I'm not remembering correctly "Gai" in the story is male.

      Rennert: As I recall we don't know that it's his first name or last name. It could very well be his last name, in which case your point is invalid. Considering all the other names we're tangling through at the moment I suggest we drop that for now.

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    • I forgot to explain that maybe we should think is we should spell Gigaty as Gigate but perhaps it's not needed.

      I reasoned that "Grand" could be based on "Gration" because you could just remove "tio"

      On the subject of "Polrio Elluka has two L's and mothy chose to spell it as "Eruruka" instead of simply "Eruka" so it isn't farfectched to think it's "Porrio" like with Gration you just remove some parst and you have the name like Porupyurioon

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    • Like I said. Lots of names that start with "gura". Lots of names start with "poru". Does not necessarily mean it's evidence in favor of those particular spellings. As for the "Elluka has two l's" thing, that was not my issue with the name.

      I'm not saying they can't theoretically be the accurate spellings, but you havent really made a strong case for them as being certain. Yes that COULD be what mothy's doing but it could be something else too. These are not members of Zeus, most of them, so it could be theme naming that's entirely unrelated to Greek mythology. I just don't feel your evidence is stronger than a coincedence, and changing things because they MIGHT be more accurate is not the point of the thread.

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    • Question, how do we want to translate Nyoze's name?

      It's apparently spelled "Shakuson," although putting it in Jisho brings up Sakyamuni (one of the titles of Guatama Buddha.)

      Chinese fans apparently write it as "Jackson", but that doesn't necessarily mean that's mothy's intention. Someone else around here suggested "Shackson" I think.

      I suggest we write it as-is, at least for now. One argument for that is that Nyoze is Jakokuese, although on the other hand we don't know if the person whose name he assumed was. That thing with Sakyamuni is weird though and might mean the name is supposed to be Jakokuese idk ;w;

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    • IIRC I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, Price) that Price went with Shakuson because the person Nyoze was impersonating/trading identities with was ALSO Jakokuese? So Shakuson made more sense?

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    • Nah, that was just me assuming that Nyoze would pick a Jakokuese name as his alias because he makes no attempt to hide his ancestry to Nemesis. The real Shakuson wanted to go by the name Nyoze too, so we might assume that he's Jakokuese as well, but then in the end he took on the name "Ben". His ethnicity is never outright stated.

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    • Not to assume the ethnicity of the real Shakuson but I'd rather we just stick with the name as-is, particularly since it has that weird Jisho thing implying that maybe it has an important meaning?

      Although the main reason I want to keep Shakuson is that I don't know what exactly it's supposed to be.

      Any votes in favor?

      Or votes in favor of Shackson? A third option?

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    • I say we stay with Shakuson.

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    • From Ichika's twitter. Is it a translation problem?

      IMG 2749
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    • Ichika is commenting on that she simply didn't understand that bloodstained switch meant "chimidoro switch"

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    • Oh, understood.

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    • Keep it Shakuson, because yeah, I don't really know what it's supposed to mean.

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    • I'm in favor of Shakuson, especially since we don't exactly have many solid alternatives

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    • I'm gonna give this a little more time, but seeing as Shakuson is already on a couple pages those pages can probably be updated now anyway.

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    • alright this isn't necessarily a REtranslation but a story about the Twin Blades was released, narrated by Chartette's father, and his name is... Smith Langley. I'll let that sink in.

      http://evillious.lofter.com/post/168289_11843226 (link is in Chinese but someone on the EC discord server is infomining it as we speak)

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    • Should this short story get its own thread? Already seeing there's a lot of new info in it if the hearsay is to be believed.

      ss Smith Langley. And then on the other hand he gives Gatt's great-something grandma such a normal Japanese name ;w;

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    • I was considering it, but I figured as a short story it could have been dealt with elsewhere? but if a thread is the best place for it, go right ahead

      got the infomine right here: http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Scarletta_Agni/The_Twin_Cursed_Blades_Infomine

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    • Hmm. Maybe we can discuss this on the Tailor thread? Lots of new info to add.

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    • It came with the kindle version of the DoE novel right?

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    • Actually yeah I think a separate thread would be appropriate.

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    • Just to rope back to the "Rennert / Lennart" thingy the argument as to why we changed "Kacherina" to "Katerina" instead of "Kachelina" is because Kachelina is a surname and it was deemed invalid becuase it was a surname. So why don't we treat "Rennert" the same way and change it to Lennart?

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    • We didn't say Kachelina was invalid because it was a surname, Octo said that all things being equal she preferred the common first name over the uncommon surname, so we just went with it because we have no way to know which one would be better. The only thing that was important was changing it from Kacherina, which we could be relatively sure was wrong.

      This is not a thread to quibble endlessly over several different perfectly good translations, it's to retranslate things we are pretty sure are wrong into something we can be reasonably sure is correct. As has been stated multiple times, there is nothing wrong with Rennert with the information we have except that you don't like it.

      If you would prefer to spell it as Lennart off the wiki on your own time then that's fine, but the fact is there's no REASON to change it aside from what you personally want to go with. It is a valid name, and all things being equal it's just as reasonable to assume it's his last name than first name.

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    • Since I see no objections to it, it looks like we're sticking with Shakuson as Nyoze's fake name for now. Made a redirect

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    • Speaking of minor character name changes, I suggest we change the name of Donnie, the orphan at the monastery with Clarith. It's spelled ドニ, and looking up the name suggests to me that it's a very common spelling of the French name "Denis" (meanwhile I can't find any instance of it being a translation of the nickname "Donnie"). "Denis" is also the name of a very famous French Christian martyr in the third century, so take that how you will.

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    • As an add on, the french name Denis is pronounced similarly to "Denny" so the potential mistranslation as Donnie is understandable imo

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    • I'd say that all checks out; feel free to change the name

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    • Are titles of stories discussable here aswell? Or is that for a separate thread?

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    • The titles of the stories can be discussed here as well. Feel free to kickstart any discussion.

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    • "The twin cursed blades" feels wrong, The original japanese is "Ma no Souken" with the kanji "魔" which means "Demon" I don't really know how we got "cursed out of it" So I suggest either "The Demon Twin Blades" or the "The Twin Blades of The Demon" (the demon being Rahab)

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    • The Demon Twin Blades sounds good to me. Let's wait for others to weigh in on this issue, though.

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    • The Demon Twin Blades sounds good to me too.

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    • That sounds okay by me. I'd argue for "demonic" though, just to make it an adjective.

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    • Yeah, I was also thinking "The Demonic Twin Blades" but I wasn't sure. I'm changing my vote to Demonic Twin Blades.

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    • I don't know if i can favorise but I do think "The Twin Blades of the Demon" fits more to the story of evil's pattern of "The ___ of ___"

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    • I would just like to point out that it feels a little uncomfortable to me to use 魔 as "demon" when it is not technically the same word as 悪魔, the word we've been consistently translating as "demon". I think "Demonic" would be more appropriate, for that reason, as it feels to me less like it's being used as a noun and more like it's being used as a "の" form adjective.

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    • 魔 also applies to magical and cursed objects, hence how we got that name in the first place. I'd say let's condense space and make it an adjective. 

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    • Alright, to summarize, I'm pushing for The Demonic Twin Blades. My reasoning is the following:

      • The name, Ma no souken, contains the character 魔, which means demon.
      • In this context, it's used to describe the nature of the twin blades as being demonic (they're inhabited by Rahab).

      If you agree with this, make sure to give this reply kudos by clicking the small thumbs-up button. This counts as a yes-vote. If you don't agree, state your valid reason in the replies bellow.

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    • If there are no further arguments, I'll be implementing "The Demonic Twin Blades".

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    • While we already had Jorm taken rom Jormungandr and with the revalation that Feng is based on Fenrir, I suggest once again we change "Hale" to "Hel" the last one of Loki's beast children. I mean her father's name is Heaven and "Hel" was the goddess of death and the ruler of the underworld, called Hel or Helheim, which was basically like Hell for Vikings. I mean it wasn't a place of torture or anything, it wasn't the best afterlife but if you were just a normal person you wouldn't hate being there(kinda like the hellish yard), but for battle hungry warriors, not being able to fight in battle is torture.

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    • Price has already supplied us with the name Hale. Perhaps a trivia point is in order to point out that Hale's name is similar to that of Hel.

      The whole Jorm being from Jormungandr wasn't mentioned before, so I also think that merits a trivia point.

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    • But where does "Hale" come from even? Is it official? Because, "this once person translates as this" doesn't really work as an excuse. Unless Hale is official, I see no reason why it can't be changed to Hel.

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    • I remember the argument being, Hel is heru and Hale's name is heeru. Therefore, it can't be Hel. Although I'm not a translator, and I am pushing for a trivia point describing the Norse reference.

      Also, you are being reductionist in your statement that "just because one person translated it". Price is the wiki-approved translator, and we use her as a basis for everything to keep things consistent. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but do make sure your arguments are sound before you make them. Thanks.

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    • "Heeru" is an alternate japanese spelling of Hel's name which is closer to the original scandinavian pronounciation. My guess is that he chose the Heeru spelling to differ it from the english "Hell" (which is also written as "Heru")

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    • Ordinarily I might point out that we have no basis to think that Hale is wrong, specifically--it is a valid translation of "Heeru", it is much closer to being an actual name, and thus there's really no strong reason to change it. However, considering that Feng Li's name has now been revealed to be based on Fenrir, and the point about Jorm, and Hale's father's name is Heaven (which was part of the argument earlier I recall), it does seem much more likely that this is the reference mothy is making, if it is truly a valid alternate spelling of Hel.

      However, that doesn't mean we need to necessarily spell it the exact same way in English (not saying we shouldn't, as there isn't a ton to work with, but perhaps we could come up with something that's punny and makes the reference but also closer to an actual name somehow?).

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    • I don't know as we have a lot of options in terms of translating it as something else that's punny. I'm fine with us going ahead and renaming her Hel.

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    • Listening to all these points, I'm fine with it as well. I'll be opening this discussion for 12 more hours, so if anyone has any issue with use renaming her to Hel Jaakko, say so now.

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    • I don't know if the renaming has gone through yet (I think enough time has passed) but on a different note: I want to discuss renaming Rukolbeni, however I don't have a proposed retranslation.

      See, in the trivia section of the city, it mentions that rukorubeni is "niberukoru" backwards, "niberukoru" being the Japanese way of writing the name of the child Nicole Aubrey/Obry gave birth to, supposedly the child between her and Beelzebub. And indeed, I do find mention of this on the Japanese wikipedia article regarding Beelzebub. Only, I can't find it anywhere else when I look up English sources to see what the baby was actually named. There's no mention of a pregnancy at all in her English wikipedia article.

      I'm still looking it up but is there anyone (perhaps with better knowledge of demonic possession history) who might know what the baby was named in French spelling? Or is it possible that this is something the Japanese Wikipedia just made up whole cloth, since that's the only place I can seem to find anything on it?

      For reference, there's another series (DateALive) with spirit/creature/spell? things called "Nibelcol", which, from context, is likely derived from the same alleged "baby".

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    • Like--I don't want to assume anything, maybe the baby is real, but the name "niberukoru" sounds suspiciously like a Japanese portmanteau name of "Nicole" and "Beelzebub" and not a real French name.

      In which case, maybe we could change the spelling of Rukolbeni to "Lecolbeni" or something to maintain the pun.

      But again--if anyone at all has any information on it, that would be good.

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    • We could change it into Rucolebeni to make it closer to Nicole.

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    • Don't know if anyone else is going to weigh in on this but I'm fine with Rucolebeni.

      Also, I motion to retranslate Beelzenia's 三日月海 from "New Moon Sea" to "Crescent Moon Sea". The name can be translated as both, and it's clearly shaped like a crescent.

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    • I'm fine with Rucolebeni

      I think the shape justifies the crescent translation over the new moon one. Would this also change Beelzenia's nickname as the Country Born Under the New Moon as the same but with Crescent Moon?

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    • Actually I think that should just be written as "Country Born of the Moon". The phrase itself is 月の生まれた国--"New Moon" should not have been part of it at all.

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    • This all makes sense. I'd like Price to weigh in before we implement all this, though.

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    • Maybe the Price anon should start signing their posts >BV

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    • --Yeah, sorry, I was the one making the suggestions up there in favor of "Rucolebeni", "Crescent Moon Sea", and "Country Born of the Moon". I'll sign next time to avoid confusion.

      -Price anon

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    • Alright, since these retranslations are Price-approved, I'd like everyone to start helping out with making the appropriate changes. I myself will begin working on things.

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    • On a different topic, Yukina's book "ヤミガラスと三四のキツネ" is translated on the wiki as "The Dark Crow and the Three Little Foxes".

      1) There's no "little" in that. It's just "Foxes". The diminuative could have been a stylistic choice on whoever translated that but I feel it's an addition that should be removed.

      2) "yami garasu", taken literally, means "Dark Glass". However, "Yamigarasu" appears to be the name of the protagonist in this tale, not an object. It seems to be a reference to something from Phantasy Star Online 2, where in there it's just spelled "Yamigarasu" (a weapon/person? NPC woman who has a crow-like appearance).

      So...Should the tale be translated as "The Dark Glass and the Three Foxes"? Or "Yamigarasu and the Three Foxes"? Is there anyone who was around when it was first translated who can explain the reasoning behind the original translation?

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    • mothy writes "glass" as "GUrasu", not "GArasu" though

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    • That's not a thing particular to mothy. They both mean glass, but "GUrasu" means drinking glass specifically, whereas "GArasu" means the material, glass.

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    • --This is Price anon by the way, forgot to sign again.

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    • that's such a weird distinction. I just figured the difference was how individuals would pronounce it/break it down into katakana.

      though, it feels weird to have a character named with blatant Japanese when the character writing them would have no reason to. Maybe it's supposed to be a name like "Snow White"?

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    • Dark Glass/Crow? Kind of the opposite of Snow White?

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    • I don't think "Crow" is a part of it at all, just saying. I think whoever translated it before (maybe Servant?) saw that "Yamigarasu" was a crow-like character and assumed it could be translated that way.

      I think the character in Phantasy Star Online 2 could get away with a name like that because she is named after the weapon that she's a personification of (Dark Glass being a sword, I think). I don't think that can be said to be the case in this story. I know it's not great to have a random Japanese name, so I'm not saying it has to be that way, but I do think it is most likely a reference and so it would make sense to translate it the same way it's been translated in that game.

      -Price anon

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    • a similar case would be Ney and Clarith but in those cases their names are spelled differently from their inspirations (Nei for Ney and Clarisse for Clarith) so I don't think a direct copy is required just because it's a reference to something

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    • What if it's "The Dark Glass and the Three Foxes"?

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    • Again, "Yamigarasu" appears to be a name in this case and not an object. So if we did translate it directly it would be "Dark Glass and the Three Foxes", no "The".

      Any thoughts for turning "Yamigarasu" into something that looks more like a name in the vein of "Nei" to "Ney", or would "Dark Glass" be the better route to take?

      Like "Yamiglass" or something idk

      -Price anon

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    • I vote "Dark Glass and the Three Foxes". It's like a parallel to "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves".

      As with the new voting system, kudos this message if you agree, and reply below if you disagree.

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    • I have no problem with "Dark Glass" if that gets wiki approval, but I would like to open the option of "Yamiglass" to the "kudos" voting system. It's not great but it keeps it semi-related to the original inspiration name while being a little less obviously random Japanese.

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    • My biggest concern with translating it as "Dark Glass" is that in most instances of a name we don't really "translate" it, we just re-spell it in English. The only exceptions that come to mind are Theater names, but we did recently learn they weren't names but rather titles.

      "Dark Glass" may itself be a title, especially if it's a reference to Snow White.

      But if it is a reference to a character with "Yamigarasu" as the name, it may be that mothy, who has admitted he doesn't think about the English spellings for things, would be aiming more for Yamiglass (or just Yamigarasu) than Dark Glass, in which case Dark Glass is a step too far.

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    • Thanks for the input, Octo. I'm giving kudos to "Yamiglass" due to what you said.

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    • Been almost a week so I think Yamiglass could probably go through. On a different note:

      特務工作部隊 has been translated on the wiki as "Espionage Task Force". However, the first two kanji on their own mean "special duty" (though they do mean "secret" in the case of 特務機関, "secret military agency"), and the second pair of kanji mean "work/maneuvering/etc" (though they do mean "spy" if 員 is put at the end).

      I am not saying that "Espionage Task Force" is absolutely wrong--it means the same basic thing as the kanji for the word. However, the wording is a little more on the nose than I think the term is intended to be (the actual words for espionage are different, for starters). I don't think there's any pressing force to retranslate it but I would like to suggest changing it to "Special Maneuvers Task Force" or some derivation therein.

      -Price

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    • Both bumping the thread and also bringing up something else I thought the wiki might want to consider: The tale "Vampiress Vanika" mentioned in the Bolganio literature page is written in Japanese as 吸血娘ヴァニカ. I'm quite certain this is meant to be a mirror of 悪食娘コンチータ.

      The official translation of that title is "Evil Food Eater Conchita", so my suggestion would be to change the story to "Evil Blood Drinker Vanika" or something like that. I realize this is a significantly less attractive title, so I understand if people would rather sacrifice the parallel for "Vampiress".

      -Price

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      • I suppose it's been long enough, and since Yamiglass is a minor change, it gets a go-ahead.
      • I approve of Special Maneuvers Task Force.
      • No comment on Evil Blood Drinker Vanika.
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    • The term "吸血娘" isn't evillious specific though, i've seen it used to describe vampiress in other contexts, and the reason mothy put evil in banica's title is because the kanji for "evil" is there but not in "吸血娘". So if one were to translate it like the way food eater was translated it would be "Blood Sucker Vanika". But still I would rather it'd be kept as vampiress

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    • My point was that both titles were in the format of "_ _ 娘 [NAME]". So I think, regardless of the fact that it very much means "Vampiress", it's intended to be a mirror of "Evil Food Eater Conchita". I was not arguing that it was incorrect as is, just that it was likely supposed to be a reference. Similarly, I am aware that the kanji for evil is not in "Vampiress", I just thought it would make the parallel more clear (as the part they have in common, the "musume" part, is omitted in the official translation of "Evil Food Eater Conchita").

      "Evil Blood Drinker Vanika" was just a suggestion (I'll admit perhaps it was too much of a liberty to take to add "evil" in there). "Blood Sucker Vanika" would serve a similar purpose. Keeping as-is is also fine with me.

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    • Bumping on "Special Maneuvers Task Force" in case anyone has any objections to it, and dropping "Blood Sucker Vanika" for now.

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    • I think we've been sitting on the names that dropped in the mothy album for to long and now that we have new names in the PV i think it is time to discuss appropriate translations

      But first Uibee was given the official surname "Aoi" so we should fix that.

      Now my suggestions are for the album names are

      (Gumina's dad) Kurasuke - Classke Glassred

      (Lord hedgehog) Somii - Somy Hedgehog (sonic pun)

      (Marquis Donald) Maakus - Marcs Donald (McDonald's pun)

      Greektelepath also suggested Jacobi for Yvette's surname Hakobi

      And I think we should probably retranslate Lari Lucif as "Lali Lucif" because you can reverse it and get "lu li la"

      as for the PV names

      Philip Yonba

      Hail Goon

      Sick Rock

      Jude Tehen

      Nainai Cuze (like "Cute" but with a z)

      Sherry Hatch

      Save Nanan

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    • Price has given the following for the PV names, so we're going with these:

      • Philippe Yonba
      • Heil Goon
      • Schick Rock
      • Save Nanan
      • Sherry Hatch
      • Nainai Kyuuzu
      • Jude Tehen

      I'm giving a pass for these, so feel free to add their minor character sections to the Four Endings page. Make sure to be careful on what we're assuming, though - all we can say for sure is that they died, their souls were sucked into Black Box, and that they were freed sometime after.

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    • price has said that the translations she used for those names might not be completely accurate if, say, there are puns that she's missing the context for or something. they probably are our best bet right now but I think that's important to keep in mind

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    • Yeee what Tobimisa said. I know some people have been trying to figure out common links between them all like number puns too. For the sake of putting them on the wiki we can stick with these for now but the topic doesn't have to be closed.

      I'm also personally fine with Classke, Somy, and Marcs. Jacobi's also probably fine.

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    • I forgot to say that Toy, given how we've had no objections to this for months, is now "Tae" and "Tosuite" is now "Tasute". The names on the articles need to be changed.

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    • So can we put in the sur and first names?

      Also can we change Lari Lucif(ラリ=ルシフ) to Lali? I admit Lari was my sugestion but in retrospect Lali works better because like stated above you can get Lulila is you reverse it. (I'd say we could make a section but we know absolutely nothing about them other then that they're a member of the Lucif family.

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    • What do you mean by "put in the sur and first names"?

      I guess we could change it to Lali, all things being equal, yeah. I think it'd be nice to have a section on him but this might be one of the few cases where there might not be enough to say. > >;

      We COULD possibly make a Lucif Family page now, but we'd have to take a guess where Lali Lucif falls on the relative's list and we'd have to make an assumption whether or not they're one of the irregulars.

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    • I mean, we could just say that neither of those things have been made explicit yet to avoid confusion?

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    • But putting in the sur and first names i mean implementing the surnames of Uibee and Yvette and first names of Somy, Marcs, and Classke.

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    • Oh, if there's been a consensus than yeah you can add it.

      And also true, there can be a trivia point added for it.

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    • I'm noticing an issue with some of the Jakokuese character's names.

      All the full articles are titled in Western format, but the infobox's Japanese and Romaji are inconsistently in either Western order with a = or in Eastern order, while in Other Names it just repeats the Eastern name, making it redundant for the names left in Eastern format. It should be one way or the other for any characters with Eastern ordered names.

      On a similar note, a lot of these characters who have non-katakana versions of their names have them in their infoboxes, but Kagura doesn't.

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    • That's definitely something that should be cleared up.

      I feel like the Japanese and Romaji  for Jakokuese characters (specifically those that show up in the Envy novel) should be in Eastern order, no equal sign, because that's how their names are written in the book. In that case, the "other names" that just shows the Eastern order would be removed. It's not really an "other name" so much as the proper way to put their name that we've forgone for simplicity's sake.

      The article titles and all can stay in Western order for said simplicity's sake.

      Also Kagura needs to be changed, yeah, although I don't know what the non-katakana is

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    • Kagura's name is in the trivia of all places, for their meaning. In Eastern order, it's 奥戸神楽

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    • This is a bit late, but if there are no more objections, then I'm giving a pass to change "Espionage Task Force" to "Special Maneuvers Task Force", as Price has suggested.

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    • So one arabic speaking friend of mine said that in arabic cultures you get the first name of your father as your surname (like in old scandinavian culture you got the surname Eriksson if you were Erik's son. So should that mean we can assume Rajih's father is named Assad as first name? Then again Rajih ibn Assad would be a more correct translation.

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    • We haven't seen that with any of the Asmodean characters so far, so no, I don't think it's safe to assume that Rajih's father has Assad as his first name.

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    • Crossposting this here too:

      I don't have an account anymore (rip) but I'd like to propose a name change from "Forest of Bewilderment" to the "Lost Woods".

      1. 迷いの森 is a common phrase in Japanese fantasy pop culture (I know it appears a good deal in video games and I'm fairly certain that Harry Potter's "Forbidden Forest/Dark Forest" was also translated as that), so I think an English title that is similarly recognizable would be fine and dandy.

      2. Compared to other translations of 迷いの森, I think that "Lost Woods" has a great contextual meaning for EC. The forest is so dense and confusing that it's easy to become lost in.

      3. "Lost Woods" helps keep the idea of 迷い that best applies here- losing your way (in either a physical or mental sense). "Lost" covers both of those better, I think, than "Bewilderment".

      Thoughts?

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    • Piggybacking off this post by Price, would anyone be in favor of changing Joseph to Josef? The reasoning in the post is that Josef is more noticeably foreign, so people will read it as "yosef" rather than "joe-sef".

      This is just a minor thing, so I'd rather we keep this discussion short.

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    • I think it's easier to adapt to reading Josef as "yosef" because people are more likely to have already seen Joseph in another context pronounced as "joe-sef"

      however I don't think they're more likely to assume that it's "yosef" if they aren't already familiar with that pronounciation

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    • I don't have strong feelings either way, but yeah Josef would be more for the benefit of helping preexisting fans read it right than suggest the pronounciation to new ones. And Joseph can be pronounced as yosef all the same.

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    • Bumping the Josef discussion.

      Price has also retranslated Banica's title as "Noble Gourmand Banica" rather than "Gourmet Noble Banica", so any help in making the change would be greatly appreciated.

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    • I've seen no actual objections to Lost Woods so I'm giving it a pass, no more Forest of Bewilderment.

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    • Recently (read: five minutes ago) I went through the cast list of the mothy album and updated the character term list. Listing some notable findings for you guys to ponder:

      • Barbara is listed with the last name バーバ, which I wrote down as Barba.
      • There is a new(?) Glassred character, maybe. クラスター might have been previously romanized to be Classke, but I don't think it matches up. I wrote it down as Cluster.
      • Eikichi was written with the last name "Akagi", but it looks like that was already picked up on.
      • A new character named マークス=ドナルド, which I wrote down as Markus Donald. (Wouldn't go with Marx for this one because Marx Felix's name is written differently.)
      • Sarah is written with the last name Octo. She has also previously been given the last name of Venom.
      • Yatski is referred to as Yatski Village (ヤツキ村), which I just tacked on as an additional term on the location term list for now.
      • Uibee is listed with the last name Octo.
      • A new character ウェイ=ルシフ, which I wrote down as Wei Lucif, though who even knows, but in hindsight this might just have been Vey Lucif
      • A character listed as ユカ=ムスビ, which is similar but not the same name as むすぴ ゆか. Not sure what's going on here.
      • Yvette is given the last name ハコビ, which I wrote down as "Hakobi".

      On a slightly related note, mothy tweeted back in 2011 a character list which has basically nothing we don't already know (except for the above bit I mentioned with Sarah) and Joseph's last name being Crim.

      I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here at the end of this but here you go, a bunch of name information I'm throwing at you guys to do with as you will.

      Edit: Here's a link to RedLadyDeath's scans to crosscheck with me if you think I made a mistake somewhere, which I might have.

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      • To be clear, Barbara Barba is separate from the Barbara of Yatski Village. We know this because it's been revealed in Praeludium that Elphegort commoners aren't given last names. Going to correct that now.
      • Us translating クラスター as "Classke" was probably an oversight. If anyone has any suggestions/objections to translating it as Cluster, say so now.
      • ユカ=ムスビ is most likely Yuka (Oyuka) Musubi; the last syllable was most likely just an oversight.
      • Wei Lucif is most likely Vey.
      • We've already agreed on the names Marcs Donald and Yvette Jacobi.
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    • Uibee is not an Octo I super miswrote that. His last name is Aoi (アオイ) and the me who can't quite read katakana that well thought she saw Octo (オクト) for some reason. My big bad

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    • I would say hold off on retranslating Classke. The mistake would be such a large oversight I'm wondering if this is a different character entirely.

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    • It seems that the romaji Misstress took down which we based our translation on for "Classke" Glassred and Yuka "Musupi" was inaccurate.

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    • Had a translator double-check. So far:

      • Vey Lucif is indeed written as Wei Rushifu. Putting it as "Vei" was an oversight.
      • Uibee Aoi pretty much doesn't have any wiggle room as it's a Jakokuese name, so I'm going to change it if there are no objections.
      • It is indeed Cluster (Kurasutaa) Glassred and Yuka Musubi. Will be making the change to Yuka if there are no objections.
      • I'd like to bring back the proposal to change Joseph to Josef.
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    • Pi and Bi are hard to tell apart when looking at a picture.

      But yea Musubi sounds like a more accurate name since "musubi" is the knot in the back of an Obi.

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    • I know this is a big overhaul of corrections but as for the Envy arc characters, we decided on the kanji/hiragana/whathaveyou for their names remaining in their Japanese name slot rather than katakana

      So if those names are incorrect due to reading them wrong from the novel or are wrong from being made to reflect our mistranslations, then we should update them and replace the katakana names

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    • Any objections to the Joseph -> Josef change? All I'm seeing are votes that are either neutral or in favor of it. Will be giving this another 24 hours.

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    • Not really, doesn't matter to me

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    • I'm going to mention that his last name has been listed as Crim, so we should probably add that too.

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    • I'm not seeing an objections, so I'm giving a pass on changing Joseph to Josef. Oh, and while making the changes, make sure to include his surname Crim.

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    • we also need to fix the Joseph redirect to Carlos and possibly add a redirect to him from Josef Crim as well?

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    • Quick suggestion, don't mean to interrupt, but just wanted to bring up retranslating Divine Levianta to Holy Levianta, on account of the fact that the "神聖" before "Levianta" is the same word used in the Japanese of "Holy Roman Empire". Basically I think it's a reference, in that Holy Levianta has as much in common with Magic Kingdom Levianta as the Holy Roman Empire had in common with the Roman Empire (that is to say, very little). Regardless of whether or not this goes through, I will be changing it myself (this is Price).

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    • I agree with the change to Holy Levianta, as for the reasons stated above.

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    • Same

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    • also same !

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    • Agree

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    • If there aren't any objections to the change, I'm giving it a pass.

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    • Mothy writes Sigurd as シグルズ (Shiguruzu). should we change it to Sigurð/Sigurðr?

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    • Sigurd is a valid spelling too. The suggested ones do look more Norse but I don't think there's necessarily any imperative to change it.

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    • Hey didn't the nemesis novel translate "malice" officialy as "evil" should we change all the "malice" to "evil"

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    • For context, the glossary of the Muzzle novel lists the term "evil" as the gene that destroyed the Second Period.

      Price said this in her post: I’m not sure if “Evil” is another word for “malice” or if mothy is essentially saying that “evil” is how we should be translating the term instead of “malice”

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    • personally I wouldn't just yet, it'd be a pretty significant overhaul for something price herself isn't sure on

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    • Did mothy ever Write Heldogort in English? I think since we translate エルド as Held, Heldogort should be Heldgort.

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    • I disagree largely because the old name is supposed to sound like something that could reasonably decay into "Elphegort" over time. "Heldgort" sounds much less like Elphegort than Heldogort does.

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    • Mount Izasa is based off of mount Fuji, correct? If so, I think the romaji for 伊耶佐山 should be Izasa San like how Mount Fuji's called Fuji-san in Japanese.

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    • The romaji should be what the kanji reads as. We should not insert honorifics where there are none.

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    • Romaji is just using romanized letters to show non-Japanese speakers how a Japanese word is pronounced. It's not a translation, so it's not something to be retranslated. If mothy meant for Mt. Izasa to be Izasa san he would have written it as Izasa san. Unless you're saying that he did write it like that, I guess

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    • 2600:1702:3EC0:4B80:E066:F000:2503:CE46 wrote: The romaji should be what the kanji reads as. We should not insert honorifics where there are none.

      I did not intend to use -San as an honorific. 山 can be read as "Yama" but it could also be read as "San" when used in a name for a mountain Ex 富士山 being read as "Fuji-san". Also the map of Jakoku we use on the Jakoku page only has kana for Jakoku. I don't have a copy of DSoE: ToE so I don't know the official readings mothy gives

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    • Totally my bad, misunderstood what you were saying. In that case, I'm more open to a change, although I think it would be best if someone with a copy of the novel could see if he has any furigana in there for the name.

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    • Just wanted to run this through everyone, are we all okay with translating Gumina's dad's name (Kurasutaa) as "Cluster"? I was thinking that another option could be "Claster", since it seems to be a real name (ex. the actress Nancy Claster). What do you guys think?

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    • I'm fine with Claster but can we change Cult Marlon to Either Curt or Kurt Marlon?

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    • Curt is usually written as "kaato". "Karuto" is a spelling of Cult. Don't see a pressing need to change it, really.

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    • Any votes for/against Claster?

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    • Personally I think cluster would be more likely as Claster is such a rare name I can't find any meaning to it.

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    • I'm alright with either but I prefer Claster over Cluster

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    • I'm seeing three votes for Claster and one vote for Cluster. If there are no more objections, I'm going to make the change.

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    • I was thinking about bringing up some names in MoN again because there was a discussion about changes but it just sorta stopped

      Given the mythological theme, Guy is probably "Gai" as in Gaia. It can also be "Gae".

      Encheri could be Enkeli, which is finnish for "angel" and Finland did side with Germany in WWII

      "Illei" comes from the goddess "Eileithya" also known as "Ilithyia" so either it should be changed to Ilei or Ili.

      Dio's surname Ames, could probably be Ameth, since Dionysus used an amethyst to keep his sanity.

      "Laclay" comes from "Heracles"(ヘラクレス) So a more acurate name would be "Racle"

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    • I think it's worth noting right off the bat that Encheri is a member of a Tasan Party, and thus probably doesn't share their theme of Greek myths.

      Laclay -> Racle as a reference to the Greek hero Heracles seems pretty straightforward to me, although I'd rather get a translator's opinion first. So does Guy -> Gai in reference to the Greek Titan Gaia.

      A Greek myth has the god Dionysus (ディオニュソス) pursuing mortal women Amethystos, as the origin for the amethyst stone. I'd say the connection's pretty strong.

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    • Yeah but Enkeli is finnish as I said.

      btw I seems as if "Oruhari" come from "Oriharu" which means "Orichalcum". Maybe the name should be changed to "Orchali".

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    • Even if Oruhari was a reference to Oriharu (which, we have no guarantee of that, and frankly I'm not sure how Orichalcum relates to the character at all), there's no reason why we would then change it to Orchali, which isn't pronounced similarly in the slightest.

      As for the other names, assuming that Encheri is some random Finnish word seems a little bit like a stretch to me (are they pronounced the same?), Ameth sounds fine, Racle sounds okay to me, Gai is fine, and as for Illei, what is "Eileithya" spelled as in Japanese?

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    • So this is completely unrelated to the current debate, but I would also like to throw in that Bogaerts' name is spelled "pogaatsu" in the katakana, which is... not really romanized to Bogaerts. I don't know if this is an error in the katakana transcription or in the translation, since ポ (po) and ボ (bo) are very similar.

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    • Well the Oriharu shortening is mostly used i video games and I figured since mothy is a gamer but whatever.

      I figured translating it as Enkeli wouldn't be a stretch since Finald was a known ally to Germany in WWII, not unlikely that Nemesis would have an ally with a finnish name and yeah it's pronounced the same. The japanese is Eileithyia is "エイレイテュイア".

      As for the Bogaerts, I seached for possible translations but is seems that even with "Po" it is translated as Bogaerts.

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    • Translating Encheri's name to match a Finnish word that doesn't even connect to Nemesis (she isn't associated with angels in any way) is still pretty tenuous. Unless you have any stronger reasoning, it's not going to fly. You're just repeating what you said about Finland being Germany's ally in WWII.

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    • It's not about Nemesis it's about war and all that and mythological beings, I'm just seeing the connection between ELphegort and Germany and saying that it's not unreasonable to say that mothy would give a finnish name to a character. Plus we have all these other nordic themes.

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    • It's not unreasonable, but you're still speculating. The translation isn't incorrect, and so unless it's clear mothy intended it to be a reference I don't think we should change it. As Octo said at the start of the thread, "This is not intended to be a place to quibble over whether you think something sounds better."

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    • it's also worth noting that nemesis is more than just an analogy for hitler and by extension germany. use is an analogy for the united states specifically and the line that she used in master of the hellish yard is a direct quote from one of the scientists responsible for the creation of the atomic bomb, which punishment is directly compared to in the narrative on Top of nemesis choosing to first fire it on evillious' equivolent to japan

      based on evidence we have now we can fully conclude that neme, and the armies that she commands, represent both germany and the us during ww2, but I think it's at least somewhat safe to assume that she's meant to represent the event as a whole from a thematic standpoint.

      either way I feel like we should acknowledge that she isn't solely represented by one source when discussing the symbolism surrounding her character

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    • Oh yeah! I think we should change N A's name to "N/A", which is how price wrote it. Also I just think it looks nicer and it seems to be an allusion to the common abbreviation of "not applicable" anyways.

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    • Price here--The actual article itself says "real name not disclosed", so...It is basically just an abbreviation to keep the source anonymous.

      I probably would have said something sooner but I didn't realize it was being treated as the character's actual name.

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    • We could probably just put something as "Anonymous" or "Unknown man"

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    • I'm in favor of calling NA "Anonymous" because I don't think their gender was ever revealed.

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    • N A has been changed to "Anonymous Source," all links to and mentions of this character need to be changed appropriately.

      Unknown Manager probably could have worked as well

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    • So I started this thread to talk about the upcoming novel Outlaw&Lychgate. It is now revealed to be about Lich Arklow and a a Kiyoteru character. Now does that mean Lich's name might actually be "Lych"?

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    • I think we should wait and see what Lychgate is in relation to Lich.

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    • Currently on Michaela's page, we have Grüne translated as "Green one", but DoE WoG says "グリオンとはクラリスがつけてくれた、ぼくの名前だ。エルフェ語で『緑色』という意味らしい" which means "Clarith gave me the name Grüne. That's my name. It means green/green color in Elphe". Should we take out the "one" in the trivia?

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    • It may just mean "green" in Elphe, but that's not relevant to the trivia, which is about what it means in German. A German user is the one who made that change to "green one"

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    • Since the Four Horsemen Incident was perpetrated by Neo Apocalypse and the first 2 kanji of the Japanese name (新生四騎士事件) mean 'new life', I think we should call it either 'New Four Horsemen Incident' or 'Neo Four Horsemen Incident' (Unless mothy stated otherwise)

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    • Taking a look at 名工ラングレー ,  I'm pretty sure 名工 is just Chartette's father's title and not his actual name, so I feel every instance where it says "Smith" Langley, we should be just calling him by his surname.

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    • That's odd--I would think it obvious that "smith" in this case meant his title and not his name. Wasn't there another source that listed his first name as "Smith"? Or was that just a really really bad error by the old translators?

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    • It's probably just an error on the part of the translator. For posterity, here's the Chinese source which the existing infomine is from.

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    • I have 2 proposals:

      タイタニス沈没事故 should be translated as "Titanis Sinking Incident". 事故 can mean accident or incident

      We should take out the S in Quartets of Evil. If mothy wanted it plural, he would've written it as カルテッツ (Plus "Akuno Quartet" is written on the back of the book in English)

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    • I don't know enough about Japanese to comment on the proposals (although if he wrote Quartet in the English it's probably fine idk,) but I'd like to ask, how are we planning to translate the name of the cafe that Lich and Michael eat at?

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    • In the Lychgate thread, I suggested "Crowe Cafe" because I thought Kuroe was a play on the word "crow" like Arklow.

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    • Lich isn't the one that likes the food there tho

      I mean I can't find anything else for Kuroe except that it's an actual name > > 

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    • According to a google search, there are actual Cafes in the US called Crowe Cafe in different states. Typing クロエ・カフェ into google got me results for Cafe Chloe

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    • I was thinking of changing the translation of クラリス修道会 to Clarith's Order/Clarith's Convent.

      Also in the Evils Kingdom booklet, "エヴィリオス年代記  -Chronicles of Evillious-" is written on page 18. not sure if that impacts anything...

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    • Convent implies a single building, whereas the Sisters of Clarith are more an organization of the Held religion. As it's based on Catholic naming conventions, I would think "the Order of Clarith" would be more appropriate, if we were to change it, though I don't think it needs changing. Sisters of Clarith is a perfectly acceptable name, imo.

      Not unless anything has changed since the last time we discussed that in length, no.

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    • 8.47.97.44 wrote: In the Lychgate thread, I suggested "Crowe Cafe" because I thought Kuroe was a play on the word "crow" like Arklow.

      Regarding this, is there a precedent where "Crowe" is written as クロエ? Because if I'm not mistaken, Crowe is pronounced the same way as "crow", and thus lacks the "eh" sound.

      Personally, I'm fine with translating it as "Chloe Cafe". Although the wordplay is possible, the cafe is connected to Michaela, not Lich.

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    • I noticed for Price's infomine for O&L, she writes Hazuki as Hadzuki. I know ヅ can be written in many ways but I think we should be writing Luna's surname as with a D especially since that's how we wright Mana's surname.

      Speaking of Story Of Evil/Unlock City characters, I think we should be writing their names in the western order. At least in English.

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    • I'm pretty sure the discrepancy between Mana and Luna was intentional for differentiating reasons, like the difference between Mickina Olliba and Mikina Freezis (or at least, our adoption of the discrepancy was for differentiating the two)

      Though as for the going back on that, maybe it just slipped Price's mind or she changed her preference on how to render that character

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    • As Price, I will say no. There is nothing wrong with the writing of "Hazuki" (iirc it's the more mainline accepted rendering of ヅ, as that's how it's pronounced nowadays), and I only write "Hadzuki" out of my own personal preference. Not everything the wiki does has to line up with my stuff. If anything, I think the wiki should rewrite Mana's name as "Hazuki" too.

      I also do not think that we should be writing the character names in western order given that they are Japanese names.

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    • Also forgot to say in the above thing but "Chloe" is fine with me. I don't know what exactly the reference is supposed to be but that's what pretty much all the spelling searches pull up, and "Crowe" always felt a little bit like a stretch to me.

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    • Reminder that this thread is for suggesting translations on the basis of more than just personal preference, and for suggesting retranslations on the basis of actual inaccuracies in the original translation.

      I also vote for Chloe

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    • This is Price--with the name correction on Hanma Barudorudo (I'm mortified but will take responsibility for getting the name spelling wrong, sorry about that guys), I would like to point out that "Baldur/Baldr", the name of a Norse god, is spelled "barudoru" in Japanese. It seems this is another pun.

      I was wondering how we might go about retranslating his name with this in mind. Baldurd seems a little...unfortunate to me. Baldured?

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    • Baldured gets my vote.

      Also, I’m seeing three votes for Chloe Cafe. Will be opening that discussion for 48 more hours.

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    • what about Baldred?

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    • I thought Baldred at first too, but I'm worried that it'll misrepresent the pronunciation. It's more like "Bahl-der-d", and Baldred might be read more as "Bahl-dread". If that makes sense.

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    • 2600:1702:3EC0:4B80:AD7A:F2EE:53F2:9E9F wrote:
      Sigurd is a valid spelling too. The suggested ones do look more Norse but I don't think there's necessarily any imperative to change it.

      Since we are tlking about Norse names, I'm bringing back this because we translate ヘズ as Höðr, so we have a precedent for using ð.

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    • Sorry if I sound rude but I don't see how your comment changes anything about the anon's reply to your suggestion (that Sigurd is a valid spelling of the romaji and there's not necessarily an imperative to change it.) Having names with special characters on an English wiki are also inconvenient at times, so I'm personally hesitant to add them in when we don't have to.

      Please be considerate of the discussion above that is trying to fix an actual mistake before you bring back a discussion about changing something for purely aesthetic reasons.

      I'm leaning for Baldured too, myself.

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    • If we're changing anything for consistency's sake I'd honestly prefer to change "Höðr" to "Hodur" instead.

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    • I prefer Baldured aswell (as the norse myth nerd)

      It kinda fits with both Lilith and Hanma. Baldr was an older twin(like Riliane) and ended up shot by a loved one (Hanma)

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    • It seems majority prefer Baldured as our translation of Hanma and Lilith's surname. Opening this discussion for 24 more hours.

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    • My suggestion for バルドルド (Barudorudo)'s translation is Baldord.

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    • What's your basis for that suggestion? We're trying to preserve the reference to the Norse god Baldur, and I'm not seeing any source where Baldur's name is spelled "Baldor".

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    • Giving Baldured a pass. Any help in changing all instances of "Balledold" to "Baldured" would be appreciated.

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    • Price has translated the Grave Yard without the space ("Graveyard"). I propose we make this change on the wiki as well.

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    • Well as even price herself said we don't need to change every name to what she prefers.

      On another note can I chage the zeus members names as proposed (Raclé, Dio Ameth, Ilei, Gai)

      I feel like there's been an agreement about those but we never say they can be changed.

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    • Someone was asking how the Greek goddess Eileithyia's name is spelled, and if it matches Illei's name in Japanese (Irei).

      Opening the floor for the other name suggestions:

      • Laclay -> Racle (a reference to Heracles)
      • Guy -> Gai (a reference to Gaia)
      • Dio Ames -> Dio Ameth (a reference to Dionysis and the Greek myth of the amethyst)
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    • Indeed it does. SO it would be translated as "ilei" instead.

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    • Can you provide a source for that?

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    • Yeah, don't retranslate Grave Yard without the space. That's just me being stupid again--it's written i'n English with the space in it. I just typed it as one word without thinking because grave yard is technically a misspelling.

      The other retranslations look fine to me.

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    • --didn't mean to put the bold in there, sorry.

      Also, is "Ilei" not...already spelled "Ilei"?  What exactly are we changing?

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    • E[ilei]thyia - エ[イレイ]テュイア

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    • ...Yes, I know why we're making the change, Misstress. I was just confused because I didn't realize that the name had two l's in it originally instead of one.

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    • Misstress was responding to Greek 0o0/

      I'm okay with these changes.

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    • We should update the title for the first TTDS novel (it only shows up for like once on mothy's page) because oops! We missed a word. I changed it to "The Three Daughters of Sir Torture" and price did a full post on it here. Probably not something that needs to be posted here but I'm overly cautious. And those changes sound good to me.

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    • Go ahead with that change, Ylime.

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    • So can I go ahead with the change of names in zeus?

      Also think maybe the third novels title should also be changed becuase people might interpret ring as in ring you wear on your finger. I think a more accurate title would "The Vicious Cycle".

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    • I think "Cycle of Evil" would be better, personally. Keep in the "of evil" thing. Especially because "aku" does not directly translate to "vicious".

      This is, however, merely an academic discussion for now considering we don't even know what "Ring of Evil" refers to. Is it referring to a cycle of evil deeds? Or is there a literal ring involved? (that is, after all, one of the translations of the word). Heck, we could even do Torus of Evil. I think novel context is necessary to make that decision.

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    • Yes, go make the changes to the Zeus members' names.

      As for the translation of the third Torture Tower novel's name, I'm going to redirect you all to this thread on the Torture Tower Wiki.

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    • The OSSCE album gives us the term 創世少女. Price has translated it as "girl of creation", although Mistress is suggesting "Genesis girl." Let's settle that here.

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    • It's pretty much six of one, half dozen of another to me. Some food for thought I'd like to throw out regarding this largely stylistic choice:

      1. "創世" means the creation of the world. Just "creation" lacks the idea of creating the world vs creating any thing. One possible solution to this is to say "Girl of the Creation". Another choice would be to use "genesis", which means much the same thing but due to the Biblical Genesis has a much stronger connotation as the creation of the world itself. As a side note, 創世記 is the Book of Genesis (with 記 meaning book in this case), so there is a precedent for that.

      2. "World Creation" or "Creation of the World" would be the most accurate, to my mind, but those both sound clunky to me.

      3. "Genesis Girl Gretel" alliterates nicely, for whatever that's worth.

      4. "Girl of Creation" sounds (at least to me) a lot less succint than "Creation Girl". While we do have a precedent for using "x of y" for situation in which mothy writes "yのx", there is no "の" in the term, so it isn't necessary to make a connection to previous terms. No matter whether "genesis" or "creation" is chosen, I'd support removing the "of" overall.

      5. If we're trying to match Ending Boy Hansel, then I would think that "creation" would be a stronger choice for that. However, the "終末" used in his title doesn't refer explicitly to the ending of the world (it is a general ending), so I think it would be fine to deviate from matching in English as well and use "genesis". 

      Overall, I would support "Genesis Girl" a bit more for largely stylistic reasons. Both terms would be absolutely fine to my mind, though. 

      - Slug

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    • Genesis Girl sounds good to me 0 0b 

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    • If that's the reasoning, then I support Genesis Girl as well. If there are no more objections, I'm giving Genesis Girl a pass.

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    • I would like to discuss a couple possible typos on mothy's part: on pages 276 & 277 of the Envy novel, Gaou's name was written w/o the ウ at the end of his name. Since idk that much Japanese, my guess is when Gaou made his name more Jakokuese, he pulled a simular thing Chartette did and changed how his name's spelt.

      Also both Redladydeath and Pixiv's scans of the Wrath novel have Bindi's alias written as カンディ. Is Kandi a Japanese variation of Gandhi? And Wise's last name is written as ロクゼ instead of ログゼ.

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    • The first and third are likely typoes. It's very possible that the second was how it was always supposed to be written and that's a mistake on our part.

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    • I agree with Ylime, Gaou's name and Wise's surname are most likely typos. Wise is definitely a Rogzé, since the Muzzle novel notes that most of the passengers on the Titanis were rich, and the Rogzés are a noble family.

      As for Bindi's alias, is it consistently spelled カンディ or is that just one instance?

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    • カンディ was used throuout Chapter 2. I looked up "カンディ" gandhi on Google, and it says it's a variation of Gandhi in Japanese....

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    • We're at 300+ posts, so I'm closing this thread and making a new one. Thanks for participating, everyone.

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