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  • Octofan
    Octofan closed this thread because:
    TOO BIG
    23:02, March 27, 2017

    This thread is for the discussion of the light novel of the same name. All changes related to the wiki to this book should first be brought forward, debated, and decided upon here. Feel free to also use this to discuss theories, give praises, or vent frustrations about the light novel or its contents.

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    • Hot diggity dog, I'm excited for this book like I haven't been excited about EC for years. Maybe I'll get fully back into it and continue to explore the mess that is this series.

      Has their been any confirmation that Evil's Theater is appearing, or is the pollmaker just using wishful thinking?

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    • There hasn't been confirmation of Evil's Theater. (The pollmaker is just an overly-excited theorist who couldn't think of anything else.)

      That being said, we do get a brief glimpse of the theater in the last chapter of the JoC novel, so if Muzzle is to JoC as Pierrot is to Gift, we'll likely be picking up the same plot threads hinted at in JoC.

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    • The pollmaker got me excited for no reason.

      YAH BABY GIVE ME MY THEATER PEOPLE

      BEEN WAITING FOR THIS MY WHOLE LIFE

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    • That blonde woman's profile says Levia Barisol. I'm shaking.

      Also, it's nice to finally see Postman! Hmmm who could possibly be a gender non-confirming blond in the series.

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    • if it is Behemo, he's really friggin short. At least, way more than I thought... Postman is just barely five feet tall (152 cm). Is Levia as tall as him? Shorter even?

      More important question-- what the heck is she doing here? Have we lost yet another important soul of Ma's? Or are we gonna see what's going on inside Ma?

      also I guess we gotta add Barisol to both their articles

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    • Honestly if we get confirmation that behemo both isn't cis and is short I'll probably die (or start worshiping mothy religiously)

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    • I think when it comes to the Barisol last name that we should add it to Levia's page and change her stuff to Levia Barisol but Behemo should currently just stay Behemo 

      I also am very curious at how Levia will end up being important when she is supposed to be in Ma but since Nemesis takes up the title of MoTHY and is Levia's daughter in a way I guess it'd make sense for Levia to some how be involved in something in some way

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    • In all seriousness, I think we should wait until Price has the entire novel infomined before we implement the updates. My reasoning is that if we add them as she goes along and there turns out to be a twist, then that means we have to go back and change everything. Hopefully this suggestion gets some support.

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    • I agree, though that's assuming price is going to provide the information from the novel. if I'm not mistaken she's expressed that she doesn't want to do any more datamines, though she was expressing that sentiment for novels that already came out (and she expressed the same sentiment before she datamined the greed novel :b)

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    • As I recall Price has already said she is gonna be infomining Muzzle of Nemesis when it was officially revealed

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    • I'll trust your judgement on that because my memory is p bad :b

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    • I'd say yeah, let's wait for Price's datamines. As someone who knows her personally she fully plans to purchase and mine the novel for info.

      ...Also as a note, just because the narrative has been vague about Postman's gender doesn't mean that the Postman literally has no gender. It's to make his/her identity as much a secret as possible. Although at this point I'm sure myself that Postman is going to end up being the (self-declared and narratively confirmed) male Behemo. OR ALLEN to account for being short. I'm also not sure that Behemo would want to work with Ma in any capacity.

      Plot twist it's a Rin character

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    • I love the detail in this image though, you can see Nemesis' little scar ooo

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    • Semi-crack theory: Postman is Punishment/Bomb Len from the SC&P novel. He's the only Len character who's utterly unaccounted for, and is the one most relevant to Nemesis's arc as far as we currently know. Of course, there's the question of how a personified bomb could be a mailman, but I'm sure mothy can find a way.

      It probably won't be the case, but I've been right before, so I might as well throw it out there.

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    • From teh summary, it seems like the entire novel is a flashback (each chapter is named memory of [ ])

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    • ...Shit is there time travel going on?

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    • Another theory based on that: Nemesis is another reincarnated god-kin. I don't know HOW, I'm just going with my gut.

      It would be super wild if she really was a reincarnated Guumilia all along though, then we'd REALLY have come full circle. It would explain the confusion on who the MOTHellishY is. No, I don't know how this would work, I'm guessing wildly and hoping something sticks.

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    • Not really, considering Gumillia exists alongside Nemesis in SCaP. That theory makes zero sense.

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    • One thing I don't know if you're all aware of: On the last page of every novel (in Pixiv's case, the last page of every chapter), there's a list of characters how are confirmed as being their Vocaloid counterpart. And for the looks of it... we may have some nice twists.

      • Nemesis Sudou, Gumilia = GUMI
      • Postman (Allen Avadonia) = Kagamine Len
      • Postman (Real) = Kagamine Rin
      • Gammon Octo = Kamui Gakupo
      • Gallerian Marlon = KAITO
      • Michaela = Hatsune Miku
      • Tony Ausdin = TONIO
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    • Two Postmen. Holy shit.

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    • It's my expectation that the Postman in the prologue is Allen. It fits in line with his presence as someone trying to learn about the sinners' lives and the history of Evillious, and the discrepancy between him speaking (with male gendered pronouns at that) and Postman in the previous novel never speaking.

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    • Their last subject died the other day. She “pressed her own switch” and killed herself. Is this related to BSS somehow?

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    • That's the impression I got from it, yes. It puts particular emphasis on that phrase "pressed the switch". So I think it's suggesting the patient from BSS is in the Second Period after all.

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    • Which means the Muzzle album booklet was accurate, and that Watching Us may very well indeed be somewhere in Evillious' timeline.

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    • Levia is using that power to study HER as well so it would make sense

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    • Michaela is back! Yay

      (I probably just sounded so stupid, I'm sorry)

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    • You've heard of "Everyone is Eve", now get ready for "Everybody is Postman"!

      Bad jokes aside, dang, I was so wrong my theory never got to set sail. Now the next question: Who the heck is Rin!Postman? Could she... Could she be the mysterious Rin character from Clockwork Lullaby and Wordplay and Full Moon Laboratory and mothy's other assorted prehistoric-era songs?!?!?! Is she finally back?!?!?!

      And blast it all, "Watching Us" was my immediate gut reaction, of course it'd be that.

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    • The Unknown Rin character could also be the Rin in Wordplay. (Whoops, you already said that, sorry)

      I looked at the online novel, since Pixiv added a few pages, and I read the back with the characters and the Vocaloid counterparts, as well as the character sheets. The Postman, as Allen, could be like what happened in the Seven Crimes and Punishment story, where Allen is set on a journey to meet the sinners and such by Sickle.

      (This probably is a stupid theory, I'm so sorry xD)

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    • MaxusFox23 wrote: One thing I don't know if you're all aware of: At the last page of every novel (in Pixiv's case, the last page of every chapter), there's a list of characters how are confirmed as being their Vocaloid counterpart. And for the looks of it... we may have some nice twists.

      • Nemesis Sudou, Gumilia = GUMI
      • Postman (Allen Avadonia) = Kagamine Len
      • Postman (Real) = Kagamine Rin
      • Gammon Octo = Kamui Gakupo
      • Gallerian Marlon = KAITO
      • Michaela = Hatsune Miku
      • Tony Ausdin = TONIO

      Two Postmans? What a twist.

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    • (you don't need to quote a post to react to it)

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    • Sorry.

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    • It's alright ^^

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    • SO held's official last name is Yggdra, I*m not the least bit surprised

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      • There's... quite a bit of divine activity in this book. Held's heading a research facility, while Levia, Behemo and Rahab are also on the move. Assuming this is in roughly the same time frame as JoC, how were they all able to do this right under Sickle's nose? Was Sickle really that busy observing Gallerian that he couldn't track the others?
      • I agree with Mistress. Held's surname is clearly a reference to the Yggdrasil, a mythical world tree in Norse mythology.
      • So Allen masquerades as Postman for a time. I think the Postman in JoC (I'm assuming that's the real one) probably doesn't speak as not to give away their gender.
      • I'm glad to see Levia again, I love her character. Assuming she never re-fuses with Ma, that may mean that Ma is just Irina's soul by the time the SCaP story takes place.
      • I wonder at what point in the story the prologue takes place. At this point, I'm guessing it's after Nemesis kills Gallerian but before she becomes dictator of Elphegort.
      • I'm surprised Nemesis has only ever killed 6 people with her gun. You'd expect a hired assassin to have killed more people.
      • Seth's apparently a physicist. Hmm, he must be pretty well-rounded as a scientist if he was able to copy Behemo's method and develop Black Box Type S on top of that.
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    • the prologue takes place in the second period! XP

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    • Yeah no, given the subject matter I'm inclined to say that this takes place at least in a memory of the Second Period. There doesn't seem to be any outright hatred spewed toward Held OR Seth. My guess is either time travel or that Allen has gone soul diving since only Levia can use this technique--and that Levia's part of the soul has imagined herself in the Second Period. Don't immediately assume this is all taking place directly around JoC.

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    • (Unimportant, Poorly thought theory coming through.....)

      Okay, I expected the plot twist to be Fen being a Len and Hale being a Rin but oh well, that was still unexpected.

      And If it appears the Levia is out, it also confirms Eve was able to get out to. What if Ma giving birth is a way for souls to get out? I mean I have no further theory to establish this but there are probably some (rare...maybe 1 percent) similarities between Eve/Gallerian and Levia/Nemesis...

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    • Master of the Deadly Sins
      Master of the Deadly Sins removed this reply because:
      repeated/spam
      12:35, March 2, 2017
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    • Maybe MA didnt survive punishment like Nemesis said and the souls seperated.

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    • Sl99999
      Sl99999 removed this reply because:
      Accident
      13:10, March 2, 2017
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    • Sl99999
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      13:09, March 2, 2017
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    • Sl99999
      Sl99999 removed this reply because:
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      13:09, March 2, 2017
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    • Sl99999
      Sl99999 removed this reply because:
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      13:09, March 2, 2017
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    • Sl99999
      Sl99999 removed this reply because:
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      13:08, March 2, 2017
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    • Sl99999
      Sl99999 removed this reply because:
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      13:10, March 2, 2017
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    • I don't think she'd still be called MA, then, she's just be Irina.

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    • I don't think she'd still be called MA, then, she's just be Irina.

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    • Irina has a history of using aliases instead of her true name (something that MA also did at the very beginning of her existence) so even if she was just Irina I wouldn't be surprised that she called used "Elluka MA Clockworker" as a new alias.

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    • Okay but that still doesn't explain that this all matches up far better with the Second Period Levia than anything late Third Period.

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    • You're all assuming that the prologue IS during the JoC period, when from the look of it it's during the Second Period, prior to Levia and the gang becoming gods. Allen and Nemesis most likely travelled back in time to a point where they could get Levia to agree to do her swap technique (IE a point where Levia is able to do the technique, and doesn't have any grudges yet that'd make her give a flat out "no" as an answer).

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    • I assume we already have translation for the three characters' profiles, but do we need the original Japanese? I can type them.

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    • I assume we already have translation for the three characters' profiles, but do we need the original Japanese? I can type them.

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    • I was curious as to where the time-travel assumption came from, I understand it a bit better now, thank you.

      If Allen travelled back in time with Nemesis, then by doing the Swap: Mind Type, Levia would essentially be looking into the future.  I feel like that would set up the option for Levia (and/or the other gods) to alter the entire course of Evillious history, and I question why they wouldn't have done the same thing to save the Second Period after it's collapse.

      Queen of the Glass "...and so history is being warped" -- Maybe Alice wasn't such a failure prophet after all?

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    • I assume we already have translation for the three characters' profiles, but do we need the original Japanese? I can type them.

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    • I assume we already have the translation for the characters' profiles, but do we need the original Japanese, because I can type them.

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    • The unusual patients probaly have HER at least one does. Is all the research on HER patients, it also seems wierd that it uses the word subjects like they are doing expiriments on them.

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    • Where was it revealed/confirmed that they're going back in time? Cause mothy's literally mind f-ing me right now....

      Also would this mean that MoN or the whole third period will be an AU? cause if someone looks into the future and possibly changes it (or basically time travel stuff), there's always a consequence...

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    • It has not been confirmed yet, it's a theory based on the tone of the prologue as it has been translated so far.  Outside of the lack of evidence for anybody being able to travel through time in the series so far, I have to agree that the setting does seem to be very "Second Period-esque" for lack of a better term.

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    • I think it's possible that the postman we're seeing right now is the "real" postman, who's a rin, and the postman in the JoC novel is the fake postman, who is allen

      That wouldn't explain why allen was working with ma but at least that (probably) wouldn't involve time travel

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    • Except the Postman in this novel uses male pronouns and is described as either sounding like a young boy, or "a girl speaking with a male tone". I'm pretty sure it's Allen.

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    • --The Postman in the Muzzle prologue I mean, sorry if that was vague.

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    • I personally have the theory that the Ma personality has been shucking off her constituent personalities after taking all the magic that she wants from them.

      As for the Second Period (and I think it's unquestionable at this point that it is the Second Period), whether it's a memory, time travel, some hallucination, or an ungodly mixture of all three, I think we can safely take the facts about the Second Period revealed in the prologue as being true. Otherwise mothy wouldn't have brought them up. Yes?

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    • I don't think this Levia is a Levia who split off from Ma - her boss is Held, Held is currently a deceased tree god, not a doctor. He was one IN THE PAST, but in the present he's not even alive. It's an odd way to describe him if this is, indeed, Levia post-Ma.

      Kicking souls out might be Ma's end goal though - they DID say her goal was purification if some sort.

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    • Purification doesn't mean that she's losing her personalities. That, again, would just make her Irina again and I wouldn't see the point of even having the unholy fusion of three souls if they'd be undone in the story so quickly.

      More likely, I feel Allen has isolated part of Levia in her own memories and reached out to her there. Postman's disguise would be to even get close to MA.

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    • But isn't Michaela the new Millenium Tree, succeeding Held after she was murdered by Ney in Story Of Evil?

      Also, why would Allen work with MA?

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    • What was mentioned wasn't "the millenium tree," the person mentioned was "Professor Held Yggdra (erudo yugudora)." Michaela was the new Millenium Tree, but I don't think that qualifies her to be a professor who works under the name Held Yggdra. And we don't know why Allen would work with Ma, but we also don't know why he'd physically go back in time either.

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    • There's also no indication he's gone back in time. The Hellish Yard had the Venomania Mansion and Conchita's mansion intact when everyone was there. He might have just gone back and found Levia's bubble.

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    • Yeah Im hesitant to call this time-Travel

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    • As a tiny break from the theory time, do you guys think it's time to change Nemesis's avatar? I just uploaded the clean version of the cover for a start (was included on Pixiv's release).

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    • Riliane sends Allen a message in a bottle, and hundreds of years later Allen becomes "Postman" and there is a second postman played by a Rin character.

      This seems deliberate to me.

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    • I still think that this is probably taking place on the second period, because I don't see how or why levia would be willingly working with both seth and held by the end of the world.

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    • On a minor note, it would make sense that Levia's let go of her grudge against Held after spending her time as Elluka - she had a lot of character development as Elluka Clockworker, so maybe that counts as them repairing their friendship.

      As for Seth, it could be one of those "I hate you but we have to work together for the common good" scenarios, just like in SCaP where the demons were forced to follow Sickle's plan. I'm a bit scatterbrained right now, but does it say that Levia hates Seth? Seth swore his allegiance to her at one point, so maybe Levia was calling in on his promise.

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    • Im more interested in Behemo and Rahab working with Held, I agree with Greek we can explain Levia with Elluka.

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    • Pretty much every clue refers to it being the Second Period shortly before its collapse due to HERs running rampant, or, as has been theorized, a time bubble/memory of it, imo.

      Two things I didn't mention in the post:

      -Levia has a gun because "these days you never know if you'll get attacked by a deviant"

      -The world population is less than half of when it was at its highest.

      Also when I say "it's around Christmas time", I mean that it explicitly calls the holiday Christmas. Their Christmas party was canceled. And as far as I know, Evillious has always called it the nativity festival.

      Not to mention it's not just "they're working together", it's "they're working together with the exact same jobs and relationships they had in the Second Period". And it seems to me that if she remembered her time as Elluka, she would have noticed Nemesis' resemblance to Gumillia.

      We don't know why or how it's the Second Period, but it seems cut and dry to me that that's what it is.

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    • Minor thing related to Price's post, the word "deviant" seems to be used to refer to HERs. Who else is called a deviant? Behemo. We get the implication that he killed the maid in Barisol's Child, so maybe he does have HER himself. If Seth could hide it from the other gods, why not Behemo?

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    • It's been implied that both levia and behemo have HERs, though I'd wager it's possible that levia "forgot" her hers/malice in the same way mariam did, but I don't think that's the same case for behemo considering the hyjinks he's been getting into

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    • Behemo definitely seems to still have it active given he tried to get Allen and Riliane to meet knowing what that would do.

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    • Just a question, Do you guys think the patient who "pressed her own switch" was the Mayu character from BSS? Or its just another random patient? 

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    • Mothy could've said anything but him saying switch makes me think that it is and this is just a coincidence but BSS was also on The Muzzle of Nemesis album.

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    • well it took place sometime in second period

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    • so mothy just tweeted and said that teh cast list wasn't suposed to be released and that it's acually part of a plot twist but he hopes that his fans will enjoy it anyway

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    • NinthProcrastinator
      NinthProcrastinator removed this reply because:
      It's pointless for the discussion board.
      23:15, March 4, 2017
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    • Chapter 1 of the novel is apparently out on Pixiv. It seems we're tackling things in reverse chronological order. My interpretation of the chapter titles:

      1. Memory of Settling the Score - Tasan Party and the Great War
      2. Memory of the Forest - Possibly Evil's Theater and Gallerian
      3. Memory of the Four Seasons - Nyoze
      4. Memory of the Battlefield - ???
      5. Memory of Flames - Probably involves Gumillia & Seth since hellfire; could also be Nemesis' partner in crime mentioned in SCaP
      6. Memory of Mother - Ma
      7. Memory of the Gods - ???
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    • So excited for the translation! I wonder who the man pictured towards the end is?

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    • Edit: I avoided assuming that he's Bruno because he is said to have aged quite a bit by this point, but his facial structure is remarkably similar, so that's the theory I'm going with.

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    • I think it's bruno

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    • Pretty sure it's Bruno, yeah. His name is mentioned often enough just by glancing at the chapter.

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    • --Also it mentions in the beginning that it's the memories of an aged black man so yeah it's Bruno.

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    • the years haven't been kind on him

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    • Do we know when the first chapter takes place exactly? 

      I was kind of hoping Dictator Nemesis would look visibly older and a little different instead of just same Nemesis but in a different outfit.

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    • Ma is part-god, so it would make sense if Nemesis has an unusual youthfulness.

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    • I suppose, but was Gallerian ever mentioned to have unusal youthfulness in Judgement of Corruption? It would make sense he would have it too if Nemesis does. It's not the face as much as not even her hair changed over the years. It's honestly just a minor nitpick that may have reason in novel or just is. Oh well. Is what it is. 

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    • Yes, Gallerian is noted as sharing his ancestors' habit of looking much younger than he actually is, which is attributed to several different factors. It's not a stretch Nemesis inherited it, even without Ma in the picture. But when it comes to the hair I think ichika is going more for recognizability than arbitrarily changing up the style to show the passage of time.

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    • I still wear my hair the same way I have since I was 8. I'm 27 now.

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    • I had obviously forgotten about Gallerian canonically looking younger than he was. 

      Recognizablitity is something I can live with though. Anyway it is just a small whiny point 

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    • In order:

      • HALE!! AND FEN!! MY BABIES!!!!
      • Nemesis has something like a split personality? Ma's a soul fusion, so maybe that's the cause.
      • Nemesis straight-up shooting Bruno was... pretty cold, even for her. It was glad to see him one last time though.
      • So they tested Punishment on Onigashima. I think they were trying to see how far they could fire Punishment, since Jakoku's pretty far off. Guess them firing at an ally wasn't an "accident" after all.
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    • I was thinking her split personality may be a manifestation of HERS like how the girl from Blood-Stained Switch had her HERS manifest as another self. 

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    • The wording that price used was extremely reminicent of the wording used in both Blood-Stained Switch and Barisol's Child is an Only Child, though it's not a full translation so maybe we can't bank too hard on the word-choice here.

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    • I don't recall multiple/split personality actually being a sympton of HERS. IIRC, that was more likely due to the trauma the girl suffered than HERS since... Irina, Kiril, Meta... None of the known HERS other than that girl actually had a voice in their head like that, from what I remember?

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    • Levia did talk to Kiril pretending to be Elluka, but I think it's also implied his HER started acting up around the same time?

      Though, even then it's not really a split personality of Kiril's, more like hallucinations of a dead loved one's voice

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    • BSS mentions Dissociative Identity Disorder (a real life condition) that occurs alongside HER. Perhaps Nemesis is the same. 

      (This is actually Greek I'm just too lazy to log in)

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    • No other HERS have been mentioned to have something like the BSS Patient to my knowledge. But I find it interesting what with BSS being on the MoN album which is a weak argument but still. I also find the mention of the girl pressing a switch in the first part and from the skim reading of Nemesis mentioning another self and that she didn't intend to use Punishment interesting.

      Of course we should wait for more info and definite confirmation but i'm just throwing out the idea of mothy finally tying Blood Stained Switch in with the main plot. 

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    • It's less that she didn't intend to use punishment and more that that's what she told her underlings. I think she still intended to use it but lied to them and acted like it was just going to serve as intimidation.

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    • I think that there could be a reason why mothy is assocating BSS with Nemesis and dropping so many hints about alternate personalities and such, though I don't think it's necessarily that it's a symptom of HERS.

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    • I'm thinking that Seth actually wasn't lying in Barisol's Child when he said Malice is from parallel worlds. Hopefully mothy fleshes out HER more through Nemesis, who is most likely one herself given her parentage.

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    • I think it was more that he was lying about killing your "other self" being a cure for HERs

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    • Yeah, Seth never said that Malice was from parallel worlds. Levia is the one who says that--and she doesn't say parallel worlds either, just that it doesn't come from the world she was in (the Second Period).

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    • Given what we know, Malice was probably present even in the First Period. Which makes sense of Levia's statement and the extreme measures taken when migrating between the Second and Third Periods.

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    • Plmqny5454
      Plmqny5454 removed this reply because:
      J
      13:11, March 9, 2017
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    • I saw it on Tumblr, it looked nice.

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    • Just a thought, but couldn't Postman ( the real Rin one) just be the other half to Punishment? I mean every one of the twins appears to need the other. And given the hint of the world having strange happenings i would imagine one half popping up while the other has yet to appear like Waiter is acceptable.

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    • So the new chapter is out and its when Nemesis sinks the Titanis appearntly there's a rival group to zeus called hades.

      There's someone called Orushisu and Haadi(not sure what those transalte to)

      The people who died in that accident were Midas Touch, Mira and Michelle Marlon, Wise Rogze, and Robert and Ellie Sane.

      Also it's possible Nemesis wasn't inteding to kill Michelle.

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    • Btw the trailer is out on NND and it's both Nemesis and Act 4

      http://nico.ms/so30827511

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    • I don't think that's the case.  Wouldn't there need to be a separate Postman for every punishment weapon created then?

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    • And wouldnt then the Postman not have a part in JoC.

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    • Just took a look on the second chapter and it's quite long... 50 pages! (counting the chapter title and ilustration)

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    • So mothy made a blog post and confirmed MoN isn't teh last installment in the series. I assume he means the next installment is the databook

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    • I'm assuming we have some Original Sin novels coming. There's a lot of info missing from there, especially RE: the child thrown into a river.

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    • I think that'll be a different series, though--I imagine it'll take at least two novels, maybe three. I figure the last book in the sins series is going to be either a databook or a theater book.

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    • Theater seems to be its own arc, too, though.

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    • He was talking about the "deadly ins of evil" series, probably should've clarified that

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    • Emuei
      Emuei removed this reply because:
      misunderstood
      15:54, March 16, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Emuei wrote:
      Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      So mothy made a blog post and confirmed MoN isn't teh last installment in the series. I assume he means the next installment is the databook
      Were you talking about this line: いよいよ「大罪」も最後の一つです。?

      I thought he's saying that the last one of the Deadly Sins series finally comes out.

      Actually I*m talking about this
      "……あ、それと、「悪ノ大罪」シリーズの小説はこれで最終巻というわけではありません。 もうちょっとだけ続きます。"

      Oh, by the way, this is not the final book in the "Deadly Sins of Evil" series. It's gonna continue just a little more

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    • The most likely answer as everybody has already stated is a databook; which I honestly would love because if I'm lucky that databook would have a lot of info (im a lore nerd); However, if it wasn't a databook, I wonder what it could be. 

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    • I'm hoping for a databook that covers a bunch. It'd be really interesting to get some more short stories and stuff. I imagine the next book will continue wherever Muzzle of Nemesis leaves off and not be exactly based on a song. Or it'll be something we never would've expected to truly be connected to the Deadly Sins. I guess we'll see. We will probably be able to make better guesses after MoN is fully infomined 

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    • Hey guys, I just ordered the MoN novel off of CDJapan, and while I've got no idea when it'll actually arrive (since I can only afford the snailiest of shipping options), if scans of the illustrations don't pop up before then I'll be glad to scan my copy and share like I did with JoC.

      Again, I had to pick the snailiest of snail mail options, so it'll be at least two weeks from when it ships before I can follow up on this if I'm lucky (it's SAL small packet shipping, so most likely I won't be seeing it until way into April). When it DOES arrive though, I'll do my best to scan it somehow. Hopefully, it'll arrive before May, and I'll be able to use my college library's scanner, otherwise you'll have to do with crappy phone photos.

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    • Well I dont think anyone expected that.

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    • Guys, pricecheckspoiler is out.... I'm speechless

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    • Nope! Nope! I don't wanna read it!

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    • Pictures in the novel are out too  (tumblr)

      Wtf is going on ;___;

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    • Wait, about the most shocking revelation made, isn't Levia performed a Swap: Mind Type during the prologue... Does the last major spoiler  forget that fact?

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    • Her power explicitly just allows her to experience what someone else has experienced vicariously. It's not like she's body-snatching like Irina does or Ma does. So no, last major spoiler doesn't ignore that and please don't assume it's misleading.

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    • That's why I asked.

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    • I'm ALSO CONFUSSED

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    • I'd just like to remind everyone that I'm taking Servy's stance regarding spoiler discussion: I'm not banning it outright, although feel free to regulate the discussion amongst yourselves.

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    • I'm sorry, I'm new in this forum

      So are we allowed or not allowed to post spoilers on this thread?

      Thank you

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    • I won't ban you if you post spoilers.

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    • Again with the black boxes.

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    • did the prologue take place in fragment memory of levia or something?

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    • I assume the prologue is taking place in the present (or at least it's being shown to us in real time rather than in a memory) because it doesn't follow the same title trends as the other chapters (in that, the rest of the novel has "memories of" in the titles)

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    • That's a bit odd and confusing.

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    • Well I mean, I'm assuming from the general plot and the opening it's set up so that the rest (or at least the following) chapters are going to be levia looking into nemesis's memories, considering that's what she's about to do at the end of the prologue

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    • I won't post spoilers here and leave it to price's updates but I will point out that in chapter three nemesis takes the name Themis, which is the greek presonifaction of justice

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    • GreekTelepath
      GreekTelepath removed this reply because:
      Not relevant
      07:19, March 23, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Poor Bruno.

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    • Someone on the Discord chat has generously provided scans. Currently, we only have Postman, but she'll post the others soon.
      MoN Illist chap 6

      Postman!

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    • It is a little crooked, so tell me if there's a problem and we'll rescan it.

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    • The other scans have been uploaded!
      MoN Illist ch5

      Gally

      MoN Illist CH4

      GAMMON

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    • If you click on the images the ugly diagonal lines will go away.

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    • Cool

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    • I looked at some of the other scans...........................Nyoze has a face! :D

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    • Glad we've got the scans. GIFT, could you also upload the concept art here? Thanks.

      Also, are we to assume that Bruno is referring to Gallerian when he says Nemesis was the daughter of the person he loved? Apparently the word aisuru can mean either romantic or platonic love, so I say we keep it ambiguous in the articles as to whether or not Bruno had feelings for Gallerian.

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    • MoN Illist chap 7

      Reunion

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    • MoN Illist profiles

      Concept Art

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    • MoN Illist relatonships
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    • I think it's safe to assume that bruno didn't have many positive feelings for Ma by the time he met nemesis so it's most likely in reference to gallerian.

      I agree that we shouldn't say for sure that he was in love with him, but I think we should make an effort to somewhat imply it since that has been done by the original work. I also feel as though if it was meant to be interpreted as purely platonic it would have been clarified as such, but again that's not grounds to state it as 100% canon (as much as I would like for it to be :b).

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    • Also, I propose taking nyoze's new icon from this if we don't get any illustrations that show his face.
      MoN Illist relatonships
      (His picture is bigger here than it is in the profiles, which is why I suggest this one specifically)
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    • As far as I know though there isn't really a natural and unobtrusive way to say "I love this person purely platonically" in Japanese, so we can't exactly use that reasoning to say Bruno's feelings are implied to be way or the other. How would the novel have done this? Have Nemesis say, "He saved me because I'm the daughter of someone he loved but only as a friend"?

      "Aisuru" is considered the "L" bomb. You don't say it to someone that you care about casually. However, it does not imply that you long for them romantically like you might a girlfriend or boyfriend (as "koisuru" would), and there are times when someone might use it to refer to their family or very close friends.

      We know definitively that Bruno loved Gallerian in a serious way, a love that persisted through most of his life and gave him an unwavering dedication to him. But I don't think we have enough to say that he was homosexual and in love with him. I don't think we should be making an effort to somewhat impy it one way or the other on his article.

      --Not to go on length about it but I just want to avoid any nuance kerfuffles.

      However, the actual chapter where Bruno spares Nemesis is chapter 2, so perhaps we'll get something more certain when I'm done reading it.

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    • The implication of having strong feelings of love is the implication of romantic love. I'm not saying that we have to make every other sentence in his article about how deeply he cared for gallerian or w/e, I'm saying we could bring up the fact that his feelings for gallerian could be interpreted as romantic. moreover, mothy could have chosen to say that bruno saved her life because he was close friends with gallerian. He didn't have to use the term love but he did.

      and not to be picky about word choice but most people prefer the use of the term gay over homosexual.

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    • I am talking almost exclusively about the word used, Tobimisa. I am saying that with that term, it states that the person has strong feelings of love but it does not necessarily state these feelings are romantic. You can have strong feelings of love for someone that you aren't in love with, which is why I brought up close friends and family. That is all I meant. The word USED suggests selfless and strong attachment that is not inherently linked to feelings of desiring someone (but can be, which is why I'm not excluding the possiblity). It doesn't matter at all how that love is interpreted by others, that is the connotations it has.

      At the moment right now you are arguing that the text is implying Bruno's feelings are romantic because it doesn't explicitly say they aren't. And I don't buy that at all. That's not good argument form. There could be a number of reasons mothy put it the way he did, including the fact that they had a master/servant relationship for much of the time they knew each other. He likens his feelings for Gallerian to the feelings that Allen had for Riliane.

      Let me put this another way. Clarith and Michaela both use the term "aisuru" to explain how they feel for each other. I am not arguing that their feelings "may have been platonic" because we have Clarith saying that she's not attracted to men, she gets noticeably jealous of Kyle, proposes to Michaela while drunk, and the two of them french kiss later in the story (granted for a specific purpose but that's still not something you do with a platonic friend), and Michaela clearly returns Clarith's feelings. If I felt like there was anything that actually suggested the same for Bruno I would be more open to outright saying that's how his feelings went.

      It's not something I'm arguing strongly against but to say "Bruno's feelings could be interpreted as romantic" on his article feels less like a statement of the facts of the text and more "some fans see it this way". Bruno has expressed no desire to be with Gallerian as anything but a friend within the story. And it's not the article's job to list ways the text could be interpreted, it's its job to list what actually is. Hence the contention lately with trivia that says "it could be inspired by X".

      Again--not trying to write a manifesto or anything but I want to make sure I'm clear with what I'm saying.

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    • I'm not involved in this conversation but I've seen the word "gay" used as a slur, insult, or joke too many times to use it in a serious conversation over the actual term for people who are attracted to the same sex.

      We're not going to quibble over terminology. And keep discussion civil. (Which you guys are, so far, but I felt it worth saying just in case.)

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    • I guess just again, because "ai" is a little bit weird as a term to explain, I'd like to clarify that if this was an English book, and the narrative said "Gallerian was someone Bruno loved", I would definitely say it's implying romantic attachment. But from what I understand that's not how it is necessarily in Japanese so that is my whole contention with it.

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    • well someone submitted a question about Shiro, Bruno and Gallerian's love for hte livestream of evil and maybe it'll get to him tomorrow

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    • My thoughts then are: If mothy is clear in his answer, then we can just put it on the article proper. If he's not, then we can make a trivia point about how he remained ambiguous on the topic when pressed, thus opening up the "it can be seen as romantic or platonic" thing in a way that's being explicitly stated instead of just going "it might be this".

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    • (I'm also going to point out the use of aishiteru in Michaela's song in reference to Clarith, which, from what I recall, is almost exclusively romantic, so there's no way to argue them as platonic just based on that before that's used as fodder to deny a canonly lesbian couple.)

      - Signed, one of the lesbians in fandom

      OKAY SO. I asked a friend who is a professional translator on her input, since I know this might continue to be a debate otherwise. Word for word:

      Ai is some heavy shit, man. You definitely don't say "ai suru" about a platonic friend. Like, you might describe a very dear friend with words like taisetsu or nakama or aibou. But "ai suru" is [A] romantic and [B] pretty damn serious. Even married couples in Japan get bashful about using it, and there's a reason why teenagers favor the lighter, cuter "suki desu". It is a word loaded with embarrassing levels of Emotion.

      So chances are basically REALLY high that, yes, these are romantic feelings.

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    • (Not to get off topic but I'd like some feedback about my suggestion for nyoze's icon before it gets completely buried)

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    • ...I lied, she said more that I missed.

      I guess there's a very small chance it's not romantic because language is tricksy but I think any native speaker's eyebrows would go way way way up at someone saying they "ai suru" a friend, ohhhhhh reeeeally /cough/. It's really not a "friendly" word at all. Taisetsu is the standard adjective for devotion, it can be used for family or friends or sweethearts. "Taisetsu na hito" basically translates to "loved one" in the general English sense. As a fluent speaker it is hard to imagine a nonromantic interpretation of a line like that. There are a lot of phrases in Japanese to describe devotion to a friend, it's a huge cultural thing, and "ai suru" is not one.

      Also koi wouldn't be used here regardless because it has mutual implications according to the same person. And since this would be hella one-sided, koi would appear nowhere near this (and he probably wouldn't be saying it to the guy's daughter, regardless of if Gallerian knew Nemesis was his own child or not). Also, that there are a number of different words unless homoerotic subext at the very least is what was wanted as it could have been easily avoided.

      We can wait for the stream for confirmation, but the word used with cultural context applied is leaning romantic.

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    • Denying a canonly lesbian couple was not anywhere in this conversation. I brought them up as an example of a usage of "aishiteru" which we know is romantic to contrast with the situation where there is little other evidence aside from that word for Bruno.

      The information you're giving me is not new. I have already seen the same thing.

      You're forgetting that this is not Bruno outright saying it to or about Gallerian, this is his feelings for Gallerian as described by Nemesis. So the hesitancy and special circumstances that might lead to it being almost always romantic in usage that your translator friend is describing might not be in play here (for the record she says 愛する者の娘だったから, "because i was the daughter of someone that he loves"). Not to mention that this is fiction, which as I am to understand is less hesitant about using the phrase than people in real life (I mean really, in real life people tend to shy away from devotion that extreme in anything but romantic relationships whereas it's very common in fictional relationships). This is the perspective I am coming from.

      And we already knew that Bruno had huge levels of emotion for Gallerian. The depth of his dedication was clear from the Judgment novel alone. The argument is just whether or not it's implied to be romantic based solely on the word, which I don't think it is.

      Again, mothy will either clarify this or he'll deliberately make it ambiguous (assuming he doesn't just avoid the question), so we'll have an answer.

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    • I think we should.

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    • Again--I'm saying a lot because I don't want to be misunderstood, but from what I understand of the term, the reason it's typically taken as romantic is because it suggests a level of caring and devotion that people usually only associate with romantic relationships. Not because it inherently means you love someone romantically.

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    • The aishiteru comment wasn't for you, Price, but in general. Please calm yourself. And yes, she knew this was fiction and this is from her experience with fiction, thank you very much.

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    • 1. Keep away from condescending language on threads.

      2. The discussion is already over, we're going to see what mothy says in the livestream. And might I say, it's not that big a deal if all we say on Bruno's page is "he loved and was dedicated to Gallerian," period. People can interpret it how they will.

      3. I'm fine with the Nyoze icon, since we're probably not getting a better image.

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    • I know I may sound clueless, but where and when is mothy's stream?

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    • I would like to also clarify (not to continue the discussion) that I did not see the continuation of your friend's response, I was not ignoring it in my reply.

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    • I feel suddenly underqualified for this debate, but I want to say that I was never going at this from the angle that this word choice alone "proves" that bruno was in love with gallerian. If that was really the only thing that gave me that impression then I wouldn't have brought it up at all. It was that word choice combined with what we already knew about the character that makes me think that if nothing else it's being heavily implied as romantic attraction, as one-sided as it may be. and I don't appreciate my argument being presented otherwise.

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    • What we know about Bruno's feelings towards Gallerian, the only thing he says in his own words, is that he described it as being the level of devotion Allen had for Riliane.

      If you thought there was other evidence that Bruno's feelings were romantic, you did not bring it up. That is why I assumed the word was the crux of your argument. I apologize for misrepresenting your position.

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    • 23.122.217.39 wrote:
      I would like to also clarify (not to continue the discussion) that I did not see the continuation of your friend's response, I was not ignoring it in my reply.

      I figured you weren't. Don't worry.

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    • You're right, I should have fleshed out my suggestion more, it just hadn't occured to me to do so because the question my suggestion was responding to was specifically about the word choice.

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    • Factually speaking, addressing the continuation of the reply that I missed, we don't know how Bruno described his feelings to Nemesis because that wasn't in the narrative. We don't know if she's even aware that the "aisuru mono" is Gallerian, or if that's just the impression she got from his behavior, and none of this was told to her at all.

      If Bruno himself said it, it'd be one thing. But he didn't. And we don't know what he said.

      As for "koi", mothy has used that in situations where it would be (presumably) one-sided (like with Irina and Kiril, Kiril being in love with Elluka at the time). So there's that.

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    • Well--I say we don't know what he said but again, still reading Chapter 2 so maybe he does, in which case this whole conversation will be moot.

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    • ...If anything, that just makes me wonder if Irina was deluded into thinking it wasn't one-sided tbh since koi apparently has minor to major sexual connotations from everything I've read about it. She did seem to act like Elluka "stole" Kiril from her... (Orrrr Mothy's not telling us something.)

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    • Again, I don't want to interrupt the conversation, but how do we feel about this for the icon for nyoze? (Edited to actually add the picture :b)

      Nyozeicon
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    • wait (Edit: there we go :b)

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    • I think using the one bit we have for the face is a good idea given it... Actually has a face.

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    • Yeah I think Irina had. Not so sisterly feelings for Kiril. Personally. Which I mean, they're not biologically related but still.

      I think it could stand to be tilted just a tad clockwise.

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    • No biologically but since I'm adopted... Bonds mean a lot more to me than DNA, and Kiril seems to have thought of her as a sister. (Nevermind that I am fairly certain he raised her, if I recall correctly?)

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    • Oh certainly, I would definitely say Kiril saw her as a sister. I certainly didn't mean to imply the lack of biological connection made it "okay" as it were--I think Irina's a bit of an abberation in this regard (it wouldn't be the first time mothy's hinted at incestuous sibling feelings while acknowledging that it's wrong--talking about Gast and Sarah, fyi, which idk if it's common knowledge but there's some things he says in Daughter of Fog which definitely give off that impression).

      I can't remember if he raised her or not--he might have.

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    • In the process of translating the relationship chart, we noticed that the box for Mira says "Mira Yarera", not "Mira Marlon". I don't know if there's a contradicting precedent but that's what the relationship chart says.

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    • That's her maiden name. Before marrying Gallerian.

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    • I apologize for spreading false information; I said in earlier post that Bruno calling Gallerian the "one he loves" was something he said in his own words.

      How I see this is, the Muzzle novel tell she us nothing new. We already know that Bruno is deeply devoted to Gallerian based on his actions in JoC. I feel that, unless we actually get inside Bruno's head, we can't assume he outright had feelings for Gallerian.

      Because of this, I'm fine with saying on Bruno's page that "he loved and was deeply devoted to Gallerian", or something to that effect. The statement sticks to canon facts while leaving room for interpretation.

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    • Can I go ahead and implement my suggestion for nyoze's avi since there are no objections to it, or should I give it a longer waiting period?

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    • Tobimisa wrote: Can I go ahead and implement my suggestion for nyoze's avi since there are no objections to it, or should I give it a longer waiting period?

      I usually give something 24 hours to wait for objections. For this one though, I'm not sure if there are any alternatives since that's the biggest picture we have of him.

      EDIT: Could you also show me the unedited version of the avi? I think that would work better.

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    • We should probably give it a bit of time for objections, since some people might prefer the current avi

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    • Yeaahh, I think I prefer the TLR avi. Maybe for locations we can use the novel character info avi. But since it's sorta blocky, blurry, uncolored and smaller than than the current avi, I'd say use it for anything other than the article avi.

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    • I'd say the current avi looks even blurrier since it was taken from a screenshot of a low quality pv (either 480 or 360p) and it also doesn't have a complete face, which makes it more off putting in my opinion. Though you're right about the proposed one being uncolored and blockier (at least the mouth and eyes are a bit blocky)

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    • I agree; not having eyes is a big thing. Tobi, can you make an avi based on the unedited relationship chart?

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    • I can just restore it to it's orignal file, since that was unedited, unless you want it cropped differently

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    • It still looks blocky, but I'm honestly fine with it. (Also edited your post to make the image at 280px)

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    • to this day I wonder why ichika didn't give him a face in the original pv

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    • I am aware that Yarera was her maiden name; however, her being listed as Yarera rather than Marlon seems to indicate that she kept her last name.

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    • Also, after lots of work and help from another generous user, the translated relationship chart is now complete.
      Relationship Chart

      Translated

      If you don't trust the translation source, we can ask Price to confirm it.

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    • Nikolay Tolle? The artist who committed suicide before the Lucifenian Revolution? Can't wait to see how this'll work out...

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    • Someone on twitter kinda explained it, its either a false name or its ma's doing

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    • Greek made an avi of him and named it after Hanma...

      probably an assumption but since this Nikolay is the adoptive father of and "taught" Nemesis, I'm assuming he really is Hanma. He learned magic from Ma, probably taught Nemesis to be a demon beast master (is that the term used?) and maybe how to do whatever she did to the guns in the first chapter of the novel among other things...

      edit: Hanma is specialized in ice magic it seems, and in the first chapter it was revealed the guns were filling with ice, which was making them malfunction... yep, I bet it's Hanma.

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    • Misstress would you mind linking the tweet?

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    • Yeah someone made a frozen joke about revealing one's true self.. (let it go is called "ari no mama de", "as i really am", spelling it as ありのMaMaで)

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    • Ah, alright.

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    • I'm still not sure to translate Nyoze's alias as "Jackson" since the spelling is different ("Shakuson" =/= Jackson)

      While looking for translations, I came across this word: "釈尊". Is written as "Shakuson" and, curiously, is another way to say "Buddha". And having in mind Gammon uses oriental-themed clothes...

      It may be a stretch, but I just wanted to share this.

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    • Yeah, Jackson seems to be written as Jakuson (ジャクソン). Meanwhile, we have the precedent of Shakuson-ji Temple in Japan.

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    • We'll have to see what Price says.

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    • Livestream of evil

      • they began with introducing themselves, mothy accidently started talking books before he intreduced himself
      • they mistook volume one and four since they both yellow
      • they talk manga
      • ichika was saddend to draw leonharts assassination
      • they brought out act 3 and focused on the boobs... again
      • she feels she keeps sizing clariths boobs up each time she draws her
      • she had to work hard on asan's scene
      • they talk novel
      • Much like Pierrot and gift, he considers Nemesis to be the direct sequel to judgment, but this is still the story of nemesis
      • He thought about originally deriveing nemesis' name from "megumi"
      • he's been cosidering an "ultimate edition" of the deadly sins of evil, didn't really catch what he meant
      • ichika felt the revovler came out to big on the cover, compared to the PV
      • Q&A
      • He dicided Nemesis' name since last revovler (he was apprently inspired by an enemy in resident evil?)
      • talked about "project N", it might be an ongoing thing with Ney and Nemesis?
      • he wants his characaters to laugh
      • Sickle's real name shouldn't be something ordinary like michael(don't know what that means)
      • He originally wanted more mages in the series
      • jokes about nemesis using a machine gun
      • New song on the way

      Doesn't seem like bruno's feelings were brought up, sorry.

      ALso thsi weird thing in the end came with shwoing all trialers for the sin books in reverse chronological order (counting cloture)

      Opp it goes on

      • camera broke, time for black box jokes
      • more Q&A
      • Question corner of Evil
      • Ichika, favorate illust in muzzle is the last, favrite in act 4 is when Leonahrt collapses from teh drugged wine, it looks kinda cool actually
      • Ichikas best riliane scene is when she orderds for Leonharts death because she looks cute
      • If ichika could date a character she'd date carlos so conchita doesn't eat him and mothy jokes that Conchita would eat her if she even got close to the man she loves (she's a yandere that's what he was getting at).
      • Perhaps some more metarial featuring the hellish yard is on the way
      • Yukina got married (to kyle? perhaps)
      • When asked if Bruno's love was romantic with he confirmed it was brotherly, and when asked about Shiro and Bruno's relationship he replied that Bruno just never caught on to the fact that Shiro liked him
      • Tiama comes from tiamat
      • Rin chan is my waifu jokes from the audience (again)
      • Mira has no meaning, her mom just kidna took it fromt he top of her head
      • Gumillia was always Gumillia but Michaela might've had a diffrent name
      • He imagine sickle clearly(however i didn't understnad the word he used to describe him, perhaps he's blond, not sure)
      • Gudonechia stuff
      • Someone asked mothy to say Sickle's "Good evening, Allen" but he refused, since sickle is not meant to be a self insert
      • Says he has no plans after the series, probably keep working on other stuff(comments tell him to get a girl)
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    • Is there a possibility Michaela could have been Michael from the Second Period? She acts masculine before Elluka incarnates her, and she's once again a subordinate to Levia. She also pays special attention to Lich, who would be her older brother under this theory.

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    • In my opinion, it's very possible that Michaela is Michael for the following reasons:

      • Michaela is a gender-neutral name in-universe. In Cloture, Allen says he can't tell Michaela's gender based on her name.
      • Forest spirits are genderless.
      • Michael is described as being enthusiastic, which is consistent with Michaela's personality.
      • Michaela uses the pronoun boku, which, if I'm not mistaken, is typically used by males.
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    • So Michaela would sorta be transgender? I can roll with that.

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    • I think it could be possible for Michael to have become Michaela also I'm glad to find out that Nemesis's name actually was inspired by Nemesis from Resident Evil 3

      Also curious about the Project N stuff 

      I didn't really connect that Nemesis could've been a part of that like Ney and Mariam were

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    • If anyone wants to see the livestream- I recorded it. Here's the link

      hopefully someone will translate it

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    • Huh, I figured that Michael was a reference to the archangel Michael, Michaela didn't even come to mind...

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    • Also,

      Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:

      • He dicided Nemesis' name since last revovler (he was apprently inspired by an enemy in resident evil?)

      I'm a goddamn PSYCHIC.

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    • Looks like we got confirmation for a lot of nice trivia points here 0w0

      Please let mothy have not called Sickle blond ;---;

      But yeah I'm thinking either Michael is Michaela or it's one heck of a coincidence.

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    • I'm a bit worried about Michael = Michaela, because unless Mothy has some REALLY progressive views about transgender people it might be a way to sidestep the only real same sex couple in the series. But those are largely my own worries.

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote: So Michaela would sorta be transgender? I can roll with that.

      I remember that Elluka practically forced Michaela to have a female body. Michaela suggests having a male body.

      So I think Michaells may have an unconscious preference for a male body.

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    • I can understand those worries, it kind of popped into my head too. But as far as I see it at least, Michaela is and identifies as female, even later on as a spirit/god/etc. when it would be reasonable for her to go back to "boku", and Clarith definitely fell in love with her as a female. Regardless of whether or not she was a male in a past life, I think they're still undeniably a lesbian couple.

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    • 66.139.154.138 wrote: I'm a bit worried about Michael = Michaela, because unless Mothy has some REALLY progressive views about transgender people it might be a way to sidestep the only real same sex couple in the series. But those are largely my own worries.

      Maybe it is just me, but I don't see Micha as being transgender. I mean, she was a male god that reincarnated as a genderless spirit (losing her previous memories) that got reincarnated again as a female human (per Elluka's wish of having female apprentices). I don't see how this is going to affect your views towards micha and clarith but idk.

      I wonder if sickle's an alternate len too- that would make the moon goddess Rin-ish as well. (I mean, pollo and arte's names do come from a sun god and a goddess of the moon so we'll see how he'll develop this)

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    • I mean, Michaela has been treated and seen like a girl, and no less than any other in the series, even though beforehand we know forest spirits are basically genderless/nonbinary and retain that sort of mindset in human form. I don't think there's anything to actually worry about.

      does that make sense?

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    • 190.238.123.254 wrote:

      Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote: So Michaela would sorta be transgender? I can roll with that.

      I remember that Elluka practically forced Michaela to have a female body. Michaela suggests having a male body.

      So I think Michaells may have an unconscious preference for a male body.

      I think less forced and more just Michaela went along with it when it was suggested. The idea that they could have male bodies was just something she brought up because Elluka was ignoring the possibility, she never said it was what she specifically wanted.

      You also have to consider that as a spirit "Michael" started going by "Michaela" even before getting a body was brought up. Even if it's gender neutral that's still notable

      I'm not sure if this is real-life transgenderism so much as fantasy transgenderism but that's more or less how it looks to me? 0 0

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    • To be blunt: it makes me worry because I myself am a lesbian, and the reason I brought up progressive views is because if Michaela and Michael are the same person then Mothy may not see it "counting" as an actual lesbian couple because Michael was, as someone pointed out, told to take on a pretty female's form by Elluka when incarnating. It's just really jarring to have that be a possibility: what you thought of as a lesbian couple might be considered straight by the author on a technicality he didn't introduce until late in the story, and that possibility doesn't sit well with me.

      We'll have to wait and see, though. Behemo's been treated as a guy who just likes crossdressing, from what I can tell, so Mothy might be pushing boundaries. I just know transgender issues aren't at all nearly like they are here in the west, and that's what worries me.

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    • Yeah, I suppose debating what mindset he has is beyond the purpose of this thread. We'll just have to hope he wouldn't change his mind about it this late in the game.

      Also and not to look like I'm changing the conversation but the Livestream points are getting buried I'm also suddenly side-eying the Gudonechia stuff and was wondering if anyone could clarify what kind of "stuff" that may be? Since Gudonechia is practically unknown to us aside from being Behemo's homeland/world

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    • While Michaela could possibly have been male in her previous life I think it is an undeniable fact that she identifies (or at least is okay with being seen and referred to) as female now. She doesn't remember being male and even if she had a preference for a male body at first she seems to be completely comfortable and okay with her Eve inspired body and being seen as female so I'd still fully consider MiClarith a queer relationship. Regardless of who she was before, Michaela is at least a non-binary girl now. 

      Anyway really curious about the Gudochenia stuff and about what Sickle looks like along with whatever the new song will be about and if it'll have any connection to new things that are revealed in MoN

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    • I don't think it was michaela who wanted to be a guy, if i remember correctly it was gumillia that said that it didn't matter whether they took male of female bodies and asked why elluka wanted them to be women.

      Also I don't see why mothy could not include a potential transwoman. He's been handling other sensitive stuff pretty well.

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote: I don't think it was michaela who wanted to be a guy, if i remember correctly it was gumillia that said that it didn't matter whether they took male of female bodies and asked why elluka wanted them to be women.

      I remember that it was Michaela who said that. Although I can't be totally sure about this.

      I guess I should read this part again. However, I always feel her first option would be a male body.

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    • So I checked the manga and you can't really tell who's asking but they're not isnsiting that they want to be men but are instead why Elluka wants them to be specifically beautiful women

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    • It was Michaela who said that in Daughter of Evil Wienglied of Green :

      "...However, why beautiful women? We are genderless. Being men can also be good......."

      I am somewhat surprised as I asked Eluka with no hesitation.


      So I guess you can understand this as you prefer. Michaela maybe just was curious. Or maybe Michaela has a preference.

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    • It was Michaela who said that in Daughter of Evil Wienglied of Green : "...However, why beautiful women? We are genderless. Being men can also be good......."

      I am somewhat surprised as I asked Eluka with no hesitation.


      So I guess you can understand this as you prefer. Michaela maybe just was curious. Or maybe Michaela has a preference.

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    • That to me sounds more like Michaela was just wondering what Elluka's fixation on them being women was and not really her saying well why can't I have a man's body instead.

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote: So I checked the manga and you can't really tell who's asking but they're not isnsiting that they want to be men but are instead why Elluka wants them to be specifically beautiful women

      In the novel (at least the translation), it's clear that is Michaela:

      "...However, why beautiful women? We are genderless. Being men can also be good......."

      I am somewhat surprised as I asked Eluka with no hesitation.


      So I guess you can understand this as you prefer. Michaela maybe just was curious. Or maybe Michaela has a preference.

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    • PrincessAcedia wrote: That to me sounds more like Michaela was just wondering what Elluka's fixation on them being women was and not really her saying well why can't I have a man's body instead.

      That is a perfectly valid interpretation.

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    • In line with this discussion, are Michaela and Gumillia referred to as female during their time as spirits? Because if they're referred to with gender-neutral pronouns then I propose we change their pronouns to "they" in their History sections pre-reincarnation.

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    • Which novel translations are you using? because there are some pretty unreliable translations that have been passed around

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    • Tobimisa wrote: Which novel translations are you using? because there are some pretty unreliable translations that have been passed around

      I found the trasnlation because Novel Updates.

      This is the page: http://wiegenlied-of-green.tumblr.com/post/34488718144/chapter-2-section-1-scene-3

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    • If it's the ones listed from Evillious Sidestories, it was translated using Google Translate. It's not reliable.

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    • I just checked and it is the one from Evillious SIdestories. So arguing about the nuance in that translation is kind of a waste of time.

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    • I looked at the manga version like Misstress did which is pretty accurate when it comes to translations correct? Since that scene is an adaption of the novel I think we can assume it was still meant to be Michaela saying the line. 

      "By the way, why beautiful women? Even men should be fine." I'm assuming that last bit since Elluka's speech bubble cuts the speaker off. 

      So it still gets the same gist as the unreliable translation of more Michaela just questiong why Elluka is so keen on why they have to be women. Also visuals from the manga seem to imply Michaela was considering Eve before she even asked but the validity of that as evidence is whatever you all think.

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    • Compiling some more information from the Livestream of Evil. Credit for the info goes to Mistress. If anyone could help implement this, that would be great.

      • Gandalf was never married to Ma
      • Perrie's husband is from the Marlon family
      • "Bruno Zero" is his slave name; his real name is written as Sigurd (Shiguruzu)
      • Nemesis' octopus is literally named "Ziz-san"; it's not meant to be translated
      • Gammon wears his hair over his eye for aesthetic purposes
      • Gudonechia's name is a pun on the term "good nature (guudo neichaa)"

      Also, I propose we format the reference as:

      Livestream of Evil - 03/25/17

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    • I think we should drop the Michaela thing until we have confirmation of connection and/or someone who actually knows how Japan handles gender issues.

      A lot of people are tackling it from a very Western perspective right now. Which fine, that's how they know it and how they parse it. But I KNOW that Japan does not handle gender issues the same as America or the west in general. Just like the west is more individualistic and the east is more "for the community."

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    • I think we should wait if and when it's clarified in the novels/in canon. activists exist everywhere so it's perfectly possible that his views could be atypical of the general view in japan

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    • I'd still feel more comfortable with knowledge from someone who isn't working only with good knowledge of the Western side of things since, IIRC, gender is handled differently.

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    • Remember that Michaela = Michael is only speculation. Until they're confirmed to be the same person (or not) I think we should drop the discussion for now.

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    • I mean in red shoe parade has a man getting raped by a woman, and acording to japanese law that cannot happen.

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      I mean in red shoe parade has a man getting raped by a woman, and acording to japanese law that cannot happen.

      ...That's incredibly different from how a Japanese person views GENDER.

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    • Yeah but i used it for an example for how it wouldn't be surprising if mothy as an idividual would bring  up somehting  "unjapnese"

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    • Something not being legally recognized doesn't mean that all Japanese people think that it can't happen, or that mothy is going way outside of Japanese mindsets by depicting something like this--something that has been depicted in plenty of Japanese media before with various sensitivities towards it.

      The discussion's been dropped and it's all based around speculation, as others have pointed out. in spite of me commenting on that I don't see a point to arguing over how atypical mothy is or is not as a Japanese individual.

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    • ok

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    • think having a man getting raped by a woman isn't exactly much of an indicator of stances on gender issues or social issues in general.

      If anything the biggest indicator of his views on the social issues of gender in Japan is from Behemo who has been constantly slandered by Levia in story and really has only had an ounce of seriousness to his issues shown in Barisol's Child imo.

      Anyway away from the topics of gender and everything with the stuff about Ziz-san does that mean we should go through and correct everything to Ziz-san and completely remove Mr. Ziz?

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    • Yeah I think so, we should change it to Ziz-san

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    • I agree, Ziz-san is literally his name and is intended to look Japanese.

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    • Okay guys I think its time to say it here, Someone translated mothy's author's not at the end of Muzzle and he states that the final book will be called "Master of the Heavenly Yard (False)" so maybe the new song has to do with that...

      I hope Yohio plays as sickle though cause Len is too over used...also what do you guys think about the (False) part in the title?

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    • Interesting, can you link it?

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    • It was in the discord chat a few days ago...Its probably far back up but I'll find it

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    • (its me the anon)

      Imagen
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    • Edited for clarity. Thanks, anon. Judging from the title, it's probably going to involve Allen again.

      Another thing, are we to assume that the patient who killed herself in the Prologue is in fact the patient from Blood-Stained Switch? The following are the implications:

      • The wording is very particular: the patient "pressed her own switch" to kill herself.
      • The Muzzle album seems to give the song's setting as around the BT 4000s if I'm not mistaken.
      • Levia is studying people with HER in the Muzzle novel and mentions Dissociative Identity Disorder, which the BSS patient is also diagnosed with.
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    • Where is the author's note?

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    • The author's note (this is just a small part of what mothy says in the afterward) is mistranslated. That doesn't say "false" it just means "temporary". Like that's the title he's using for now but he's not sure yet. And he's saying it's about what happens AFTER the world is destroyed, not before.

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    • The Muzzle Album does not place the setting of BSS in ET 4000s. There is a number associated with the song in the album that gives a negative number when you subtract 999 from it, what that number means is up to speculation. With the other songs it did give the year, but BSS's number (if I'm remembering right) corresponded instead to its release date. Watching Us also had a negative number. Fans have speculated that the negative numbers put these songs in another period, but it could just mean that these two songs are non-canon and can't be grouped with the other songs on the album.

      While I do think the wording makes this a reference, I do not think it's reasonable to say that that patient given an offhand mention is definitively the BSS patient.

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    • The patient's song would be set in BT 1013.

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    • I think we should wait for confirmation because it could very well just be a reference to BSS and not be the BSS patient herself

      I think the implication given though is essentially that the song takes place in the Second Period but I don't think we should assume the patient who committed suicide is BSS patient.

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    • Alright, so we're not assuming.

      Another point: Do we disregard the information given in the SCaP short story? Nemesis' chapter says she has a partner in crime who she sees as a father figure. The only two candidates for this, in my opinion, are Hanma and Narcissus, although Hanma never commits crimes with Nemesis on-screen and Nemesis doesn't seem to see Narcissus as a father figure.

      On a sidenote, mothy has contradicted information from SCaP before; Allen's narration states that Gallerian was contracted to the Demon of Greed despite his not having done so in the JoC novel.

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    • Maybe SIckle is jsut decieving allen?

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    • GreekTelepath wrote: Alright, so we're not assuming.

      Another point: Do we disregard the information given in the SCaP short story? Nemesis' chapter says she has a partner in crime who she sees as a father figure. The only two candidates for this, in my opinion, are Hanma and Narcissus, although Hanma never commits crimes with Nemesis on-screen and Nemesis doesn't seem to see Narcissus as a father figure.

      Yes. More recent information is always better than older info. Besides, SCaP is CraP as the name also suggests

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    • I want to point out the possibility that that section was mistranslated, considering that SoE is the one who handled it, before we toss out all the info in the story.

      Same for the contracting point, there could have been some way of phrasing it that Allen used to preserve the twist.

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    • I feel like I remember "contradicting" evidence being due to mistranslations of things that added to confusion (Such as what happened to Mikulia in the Sloth novel as I recall) so I agree with Octo that perhaps the passages were just misread and they should be looked over again if ever possible.

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    • Ninjago Cursed World, please do not spread the translations on the Discord chat. They are meant as a preview for the members there only and I generally try to avoid spreading them, as do most other members, until they are validated by Price. We understand that mistranslation is prone to occur, and an information disclaimer was attached to it (way long ago, I should probably repost that).

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    • The father figure in question could be Nikolay possibly? When Nemesis shoots Nikolay, doesnt she mentions it was not only out of revenge but also to give a quick death to the man who was a father figure towards her?

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    • Nemesis looks up to Nikolay as a father figure, and he indirectly helps her by teaching her ice magic and keeping Ziz-san

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    • The issue isn't that Nemesis has no father figure, the issue is that Nikolay isn't her partner in crime. Servant's infomine asserts that Nemesis' partner in crime was her father figure, not some painter in the woods. I'm of the opinion that something was mistranslated there in that specific wording.

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    • Are you fudging kidding me, Ziz-San!?

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    • Honestly I'm not even surprised at this point

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    • FUCKING HELL, SETH, YOU'RE A DAMN COCKROACH

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      • I'm getting the impression that Nyoze was just getting close to Nemesis in order to enlist her help in the Tasan Party, but then developed feelings for her along the way.
      • It's nice to see Bruno's cold side in this chapter. I keep forgetting that aside from being loyal and kinds toward Gallerian, he can also be intense (like that time he confronted Ma about the affair).
      • Was Shiro the one who taught Nemesis how to shoot?
      • So Seth was able to return to his vessel somehow. To be honest, I'm a bit disappointed at how Grim the End is so powerful now that it can transform into biological creatures instead of just metal objects. However, at least we have an explanation as to how the vessel moves around.
      • Nemesis wearing Seth as a mask is yet another Gumillia parallel. Nice.
      • Judging by the name of the next chapter (Memory of the Battlefield), I'm hoping we'll be getting Gammon and the Tasan Party. I'm hyped.
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    • GreekTelepath wrote:

      • Was Shiro the one who taught Nemesis how to shoot?

      Yep.

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    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      • So Seth was able to return to his vessel somehow. To be honest, I'm a bit disappointed at how Grim the End is so powerful now that it can transform into biological creatures instead of just metal objects. However, at least we have an explanation as to how the vessel moves around.

      I mean, it's Seth's favorite for a reason. Now we know why. It's his trump card.

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    • I like how we've gone from "Ziz Tiamas in EC started as a Tako Luka joke given their initial connections to Elluka" to "Nemesis's pet Ziz Tiama was Seth in disguise the whole time", because it indirectly implies that Seth is, in fact, secretly Tako Luka in a Kiyoteru-shaped trenchcoat, and something about that is just wonderful.

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    • Yep

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    • I know his "true form" is a sentient mask but I just like to imagine his original form was a levitating chaotic evil octopus

      and his true demonic body inside Grim the End is a chaotic evil octopus angrily floating through empty space

      and that time the Key snuck into Clarith's cabinet or Lemy's pocket? Turned into a very small octopus and valiantly inched his way where he needed to go

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