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  • This here is a post to bring up something that got brought up a long time ago but was lost. Specifically, adding English translations to the lyrics on song pages. I'm making this post to announce that I'm going to take that back up, with a new policy, and for people to voice their concerns, questions, or agreements on said policy.</p>

    I do not approve of the way translations were handled in the past, specifically being taken from several dubious sources uncredited and merged together into something that somebody who does not speak Japanese thought was accurate. From now on I think it will be much simpler to just take translations from translators who are fluent in Japanese and English and credit them for if somebody has an issue or question with how they worded something. Furthermore I think it is inappropriate to make personal revisions to a translation for any reason other than corrections to terms and names as established by canon.

    I'm going to be taking most of these translations from Price Check, since most of us agree that they are pretty accurate, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all the translations have to come from the same source so long as they are demonstrably fluent.

    Any questions, concerns, or volunteers?

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    • I support using Price's translations. We'll have to credit her in some way on the page though.

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    • I second using Price's translations.

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    • I obviously support Price's Translations

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    • I have a question, what type of translations will the wiki favor? Obviously, accurate translations, but in between accurate-literal and accurate-better-sounding translations? By better sound I mean those that beyond being accurate also reflect the song´s tone.

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    • Since both in this scenario are accurate, we'd probably pick translations that better reflect the tone of the songs. Obviously I am not in favor of taking liberties, though; the translation has to reflect what the song is actually saying. Most localizations are also out. We're not official enough to make that call.

      For example, "Princess Sandman" sounds nice but that's out.

      This is not a binary, though. Ideally the translation we pick would not be overly literal while not taking a bunch of liberties, especially unnecessary ones to make the song sound "prettier."

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    • Anon .5, could you provide an example of what you mean when you say "accurate but literal translation" versus "better sounding translation"?

      Because if a translation is overly literal to the point where it doesn't convey the same message the song would, it's not accurate. If a translation takes too many liberties, distorting the meaning to keep in some poetic feel, it's also not accurate. So could you clarify a little on what specific translations you have in mind when you use that kind of terminology?

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    • .39, I don't have an example on hand but, let's say we have a song taking place in medieval times. Both translations say the say thing, but one writes in a way that sound more archaic, without changing what the song actually says.

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    • Hmm. That sounds like a good example but I'm not sure entirely that it's something the translation should do if it's not an element of the original song. Of course, if it does use archaic Japanese for stylistic effect, and that's something the more literal translator didn't pick up on, then the better-sounding one would be more accurate. But if it's not originally a part of the language used in the song then in that case the more literal sounding one would be more in keeping with the song's tone, imo.

      I think that's an especially tricky topic in that particular example because (from my perspective) a lot of people in English don't take archaic sounding speech very seriously anymore, so it also runs the risk of making people think it's melodramatic or even comical in some respects.

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    • .39's got the right idea. If the song is intentionally using archaic sounding language or indicates it should be translated with archaic language, maybe. But if it's -just- that it takes place in medieval times, the wiki's stance should be that it's not the (unofficial) translator's call to make. I mean if someone else disagrees on that they're free to say so 0 0

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    • I'm with octo and .39 on this

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    • Ah, I meant what .39 was talking about, I don't know how to word, sorry :( And by archaic, I didn't necessarily meant thee or thous, just 'older sounding'. But yeah, what .39 said

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    • Forgot to mention, I have one nitpick about Price's translations though. They use "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" and for me, those words are so modern that they seem jarring when used in settings such as the EC 500s (French revolution). But that's just my personal preference.

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    • That might be more on Mothy's head than Price's. I mean, what would you put in their place--especially if Mothy's using the word for girlfriend/boyfriend?

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    • The words I translate as "girlfriend/boyfriend" are words that imply a significant other that is legitimate, as opposed to someone that you're having an affair with.

      For example, Meta is Pale's girlfriend. Milky is his lover.

      I honestly agree with Greek in that it jars a little with the tone, but I feel like there isn't another way to make the distinction clear.

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    • You could use mistress, rather than implying "lover" is not mutual or construing it that way.

      "Goodbye, my lover.", so says Nemesis, who was pretty darn likely in a mutual relationship with Nyoze and no other on the side.

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    • It has nothing to do with "mutual" or "not mutual," I'm not sure where you got that from the reply. It has to do with whether the relationship is official and/or socially legitimate or not. In English, the term "lover" can often be construed as meaning that the relationship is clandestine or socially unacceptable, even if that's not always what it means. By contrast, with terms like "boyfriend/girlfriend" there is no ambiguity at all. Heck, in your Nemesis example I'd say that illustrates the point, since Nemesis is having a love affair with someone on the opposite side of the law as her and vice versa. Neither of them could probably openly say the other is their girl/boyfriend, assuming Nyoze knows what she is.

      inb4 you come in saying "she call him her boyfriend in this scene" or something, this kind of debate isn't the point of the thread. Do you have any issues with the policy that I outlined at the beginning of it?

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    • What Octo said. Regardless of how I might have misworded my reasoning, my point was in defense of using "girlfriend/boyfriend" as being an unambiguous term for the kind of relationship the word means, not arguing that lover could only refer to someone you're having an affair with. It just has connotations along those lines so I didn't want to use it. I do, in fact, also use the term "mistress" when appropriate.

      Not to mention that you can have an affair with someone without it being the cheating kind.

      This does bring up another point though on how translations will be selected. I think generally what might be expected of this is to have people vote on which translations or translators they want to use and go from there. However in the past, a lot of translation correction and progress has been stymied by opening it to the wiki populace at large--it takes a while for people to share their opinions, and usually those opinions are either vague and wishy-washy, or very strong but on points that are non-negotiable and arbitrary (not trying to be rude but that's how I see it).

      I personally feel like it would be best to leave it all up to admin discretion (specifically Octo's, but I realize she's not the only one and they might have other thoughts on the matter). People can still object if they don't like those choices, but I don't think we should let this be a drawn out process of having people just pick which one they like better. Especially considering the sheer number of songs and translations to choose from.

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    • I haven't seen any more objections to this, so after a month I'm gonna go ahead and implement this policy.

      The song pages will have updated translations and translations added where there were none before. They will be credited to specific translators instead of being "wiki-created", and specifically at this point we'll be using Pricecheck's translations.

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    • A side note, what I had in mind is that we also have an external link at the bottom of each song page leading to Price's post.

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    • The change has been implemented for Ma Survival; take special note of how the first letter of every line in Romaji (and English) is capitalized, as well as the External Links section leading to the corresponding lyrics post by Price Check. Since we have a great number of songs in EC, it would be great if everyone could pitch in for this.

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    • I'm sorry for not clearing this earlier but I had wanted to put in the lyric box itself "English translation by [User here]" because I believed it would make it clear that the lyrics right in the box were by that user, as opposed to making an external link that's overall more ambiguous and easily missed.

      It's also similar to how the Vocaloid Wiki directly credits the translator on the page as opposed to making a link--that, from what I'm seeing, doesn't even have the name of the translator on it--to take people away from the page.

      I can see how you might be thinking along the lines of what we used to have for Cloture and Wiegenlied (although endorsing that translation was a mistake.) But there's a huge difference in that those are full on novel translations, whereas Price's tumblr blog post doesn't provide anything more than what we already have.

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    • Ah, I apologize. You're correct, it was my intention to follow what we were already doing. Now that you've brought it up, crediting Price in the lyric box directly has my support. If we're using her romaji as basis, we should also credit her for that as well.

      My only nitpick is that the line is written in plain text, so there's nothing to distinguish it from the regular lyrics. Perhaps we can enclose it in parentheses and have it italics?

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    • I'm down with emphasizing it if that will make it easier. I'm also down for crediting her for the romaji, although it might not be as necessary since romaji's not as "subjective" (only word I can think to use) as a translation, except for how you spell loanwords I suppose.

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    • So while posting stuff I've noticed a thing in Price's transaltions "Ou" is translated as "Ruler" and i the daughter of evil that kinda clashes with canon because Kyle was not the ruler, he was merely a symbolic king, his mother was the actual ruler

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    • If you're talking about "Daughter of White", then no it does not "clash with canon" because it is from Clarith's perspective, and by her viewpoint, Kyle is the ruler of Marlon. Ruler is also a position, and it's one that Kyle very much had--even if he wasn't the one actually taking charge of the kingdom, he was still the person technically ruling it.

      I'm changing it to king (I can't remember why I wrote ruler in the first place), but this is a non-issue.

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    • Yeah no, Kyle was definitely not only a symbolic king. His mother being the actual ruler was one of the criticisms leveled at him as in his mother had too much influence over his decisions, not an actual official thing in Marlon law. 

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    • Prim was the puppetmaster, but Kyle actually held the title. He was coronated. He was the king. Prim simply influenced him, IIRC.

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    • Just so we're clear, here's what we're going to be implementing:

      • An additional tab for the English lyrics in the Lyrics section, using Price's translations.
      • A bolded line (English translation by Pricechecktranslations) at the bottom of the lyrics tab.

      No more need for the external links.

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    • I went ahead and added price's translations to all of the song articles that didn't have them. So if anyone sees any mistakes feel free to come to me.

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    • In line with using the new translations, I'd like everyone to update the quotes that are lifted from song lyrics accordingly. One important thing I'd like to point out is that Price translates 'saa' as "come", so lines like Riliane's catchphrase should be translated as "Come, kneel to me!"

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    • I don't know if we need to necessarily do that. Is that an actually more accurate difference between our quotes or an aesthetic difference on Price's part?

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    • To clarify, I feel the need for consistency now that we're using Price's translations. I'd have to ask her myself whether her choice is a related to accuracy or aesthetic, though.

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    • From what I've seen, saa can be translated as either, and both translations work about the same. so I think consistency is the only thing that really matters here.

      So I'm in favor of changing quotes to match up with price's translations.

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    • Yeah, I guess I can see that 0 0 carry on

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    • I'm assuming that this is the translation thread that octo was referring to so sorry if I'm wrong :b

      It's also worth nothing that the line in muzzle seems to be entirely about gallerian. we know from the wrath novel that nemesis did love him after all, and nyoze wasn't brought up at all in the scene that expanded on the song. so it'd only make sense that gallerian would be the person she was referring to in muzzle.

      that said, it'd be more than a bit awkward if the line was translated as "goodbye my lover" then. I don't even want to think about what that family tree would look like

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    • I think Octo meant the retranslation thread but since this involves song translations anyway--

      I think the line in Muzzle is a call back to Revolver, not meaning that "itoshii hito" is referring to Gallerian (unless I'm misreading what you're saying--I think she later wished that she could have had a normal life with him as her father but I don't think she actually cared for him in the end). Like, "I killed the one I love and now I've killed the one I hate". Nyoze doesn't show up in the scene in the novel but it makes perfect sense to reference him in the song, as he's featured pretty heavily in the first half.

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    • Here's a link to the thread, for those who can't find it, but yeah this is about songs so no biggie.

      I agree that it doesn't necessarily have to refer to Gallerian but the point does still stand that if we translate any of the involved lines differently we lose one of or all of the parallels. I'm of the opinion that the lines don't necessarily need to match the alternate English title of the song. Plenty of songs in real life have titles that don't necessarily match the lyric they're referencing, from tense changes to article and conjunction swapping and stuff like that.

      Just my opinion on it. It doesn't look like there's a right or wrong answer and the change would be minor either way.

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    • A FANDOM user
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