I think we should implement seperate pages for character galleries that are getting too long/full, in particular I'm referring to Riliane and Allen's character galleries, but the other sinner's galleries are slowly filling up too. At the most, I think we could consider splitting the galleries inbetween the offical stuff like books, songs, concept,manga, and then the tab that is misc (which is mostly full of fanart by Ichika and the other illustrators) if it's absolutely "required" that we have a gallery on the characer's page.
I don't know if I agree to the galleries having whole new pages, but I've thought for a long time that we should just get rid of the fanart from the articles. It clogs up the misc tab with unnecessary, unofficial art and the illustrators themselves have their own pages. If fans want to see more, they should be able to just look there and maybe pick up a link to their tumblr/Twitter/Pixiv account.
Alternatively, some of the art could just be moved over to the illustrator's article and stay there. Pretty sure this argument died long ago and I am just bitterly ranting though. Apologies for going off track; I guess I am neutral on the actual proposal. orz
I think the galleries are fine the way they are, as I have always disliked the 'external pages for galleries' idea. I think tabs work fine the way they are- plus, the first tab that shows up is the Concept Art tab, which often has 1/2 images in it, and thus doesn't even make the page longer- unless someone wants to see the other images.
Also regarding KER's suggestion, i dont think ichika's fanart should be moved. We all know that she draws a lot of riliane allen and gallerian. It doesnt even show up on the page unless they want to see the misc images. And it does not really 'clog' up the other, official, misc images since the Album images always are first to the list. The fanart from official illustrators is always at the bottom.
188.8.131.52 wrote: Agree on the pages. It works on other wikias, and for a reason.
Sorry, cat got in the way. >>
The reason it works so well is that it puts a majority of images on separate pages that have to be clicked through to for access. This means that those images won't drain a mobile user's data, but still be there.
Just to clarify, we don't have to move the entire gallery for a character to a new page, I was more concerned with the misc section of the gallery as it is getting far too long. I was merely using the Hatsune Miku gallery page from the Vocaloid wikia as an example.
Perhaps what we could do is have a character gallery on their page we a select few works, but then a seperate page as well?
An album section sounds good. I'd like to change my proposal to us keeping a few selected works in the Misc tab, and the moving the rest to another page. I don't know how it would work, but we could have a link to the other page in the Misc tab of the Gallery.
My arth article in my sandbox has an example gallery with an album tab, obviously Arth's article isn't the best example due to very limited art.
Edit: I copied Allen's gallery into my sandbox and added an albums tab. This did not shorten the Misc section by very much at all, which is why I still propose a page for the misc gallery. Alternatively, we could also create a tab for promotional material, which shortens the amount of images further. However I still think creating a page is better.
Still advocating for separate gallery pages. Again, to bring up mobile users: this would save precious data because images take up a lot of that. This would keep them from being accessed just being on a character page.
I know this suggestion was dropped a while ago but I honestly agree that fanart should be taken off the character pages and then put in the relevant illustrator's page, if they have one. The character galleries on the articles themselves should be used for official art only. I feel like this is even more imperative when it comes to official illustrator's fanart because then it blurs the lines for fans, not knowing what's actually creator endorsed versus what's really just their own speculation.
Like the image of Seth holding the stuffed cat--that's not an actual thing, that's just what Ichika imagines it was like. But because it's her, it looks official enough that some people may get confused. Especially if details later arrive that contradict what's in it.
It's kind of like the equivalent of putting fan theories in the trivia section. Not to mention the problem being discussed that it leads to massive "misc" pages.
I have to disagree (though I can't say I'm entirely unbiased on this). For starters, there are creators that don't have pages, and it seems impractical to create a page for them just to put fan art in their galleries. Moreover that makes it much more difficult for people to find the art or know when new art of a character has been added. And if people are confused about fan art being canon or not (despite being labeled as fan art in the galleries already) then they aren't going to be any less confused about it if they see it on the illustrator's page than they would be seeing it on the character's page.
Personally I think making seperate galleries in general is a bit inconvientent, but seperating the art like that would just make it impossible to keep up with it.
How would it be inconvenient? The misc gallery page would have a link on the main page, making it literally a click away. Also, since it's a page in itself, it would still show up on the Recent Activity, if I'm not mistaken.
I wasn't really saying I was against making new pages for the galleries, I know I'm in the minority in that opinion anyways, I'm just against moving the fan art on the illustrators pages. And for more reasons than just convienece
I honestly don't see why it's the wiki's responsibility to make fan content available to fans in the first place. Like I understand having galleries for official art because this is an information repository on Evillious, but fanart contributes nothing to the information narrative because it's not canon. I just don't think it belongs on the character's pages. I don't see what place it has there at all aside from convenience's sake for people who like looking at fanart, and that's really not the standard we should have for putting content on there.
I suggested putting fanart on illustrator pages because I know some people are attached to the artwork of people like Ichika (partially because again, she is the most prolific official translator), and they might still want it on the wiki somewhere to look at, but my main point is that I think it should be off the character articles period. At least if it's on the illustrator page then it's clear it's not associated with canon information, just the artist who made it.
(continuation, entered too fast) Like, having fanart in the misc galleries was fine before but if it's causing problems in terms of length and data it should just be removed because it really doesn't belong there in the first place.
I understand why you'd feel this way but you say that like it's not the fans putting it up in the first place. No one's making people add fanart, they're putting it there because they want to. So there's no burden being put on the wikia because we have it. And we're only talking about making seperate pages because of the fanart in the misc galleries, so why would we get rid of the fanart and make gallery pages? They're two sollutions for the same problem so I don't see why we'd need to do both.
Speaking personally, I enjoy being able to see new fanart by the illustrators get posted on the wiki. However, I also think the Misc tabs are too bloated, which is why I support having separate pages for the illustrator fanart. Those of us who enjoy keeping up with said fanart will still be able to do so even when we have separate pages, so I see it as a win-win overall.
I wasn't saying we should do both. I was explicitly saying we should just get rid of the fanart on character pages, plain and simple. That's it. That's the total of what I think we should do. Because I view that, not the length of the galleries, as the actual problem. The length is just a symptom (similar to the bloated writing issue).
For all your arguments you still haven't addressed that it's not canon and thus it doesn't belong there in the first place. It's not important to understanding anything about the series by keeping it. As Greek said, the Misc tabs are becoming too bloated. And if we don't have standards about what goes on there that excludes fanart, they'll only CONTINUE to get more bloated.
Compare them to the other tabs--there is a TON of content in official art, but not all of it is put in the actual tabs themselves. It's constrained to select images that showcase something important, like novel illustrations, or art that shows what the character in question looked like for a specific appearance. It's not always that efficient, of course, but that is the intent behind it. The Misc tab isn't being used to give any particular information on anything, it's just being used as a dumping ground for illustrator fanart so people can have a gallery to see it. But that's not what the character articles are there for. We don't NEED (for example) several Rin and Len Chibi sketches by Ichika in the gallery (each one looking pretty much identical), yet they're put there solely because people want to see it and don't want to make an actual space for it.
I'm not saying fanart specifically is a strain on the wiki, I'm saying it's inappropriate to essentially collect it in character galleries. Like, I understand wanting to see it. But it needs to be somewhere else. We need to limit Misc. to things that are official misc. content like posters and cards.
Obviously it's not up to me but this is my stance. I do like Greek's suggestion, however. Like, we're already supposed to have pages for illustrators on the wiki (especially people like Ichika), so I don't see why we can't move it there.
And as a minor point, you said that the fanart was clearly labeled as such in the galleries, but I'm not seeing any labels that make that distinction clear whatsoever. All of the captions refer to them as "illustrations". Which, frankly, is a little misleading in and of itself.
I have to say I agree, it looks inappropriate to me. There are no, or at least not enough, standards on Misc. the way there are on other tabs and it's clear that that's causing the problem.
This is not the first time that the topic was brought up. I recall a while back that someone else also suggested we remove anything that is nothing more than artist fanart from the wiki, since it was going to cause problems as it kept coming out. As I recall the justification for keeping it (aside from that we were using some of Ichika's fanart for infobox images, which isn't a problem anymore) was that these pieces of fanart could be considered "concept art" on the part of the illustrator. Although the fact that we don't put them in the concept art tab probably betrays that notion, since it's not actually concept art except for how the artist personally is conceptualizing the character. I mean, case by case basis and all, but still. Yes I think I've switched positions since then shh
So yeah, it probably is a problem, especially since none of it is labeled properly (although labelling them properly would not solve all the problems) I mean, I'm looking at the page for The Song I Heard Somewhere, and I suddenly realize that it looks an awful lot like we're saying that Ichika's visualization for the event, as Seth standing just outside the forest with the stuffed cat, is the correct one by just calling it an "illustration" for the song. I'm pretty sure someone got confused over that already.
My vote is like the anon's. Either we take it off the wiki completely, or we can somewhat justify putting them on artist pages. That, or we limit the amount of fanart that is included in Misc. since we limit the amount of art is on the other tabs (with or without adding the rest to illustrator pages) and it's clear that adding every single one of these illustrations is not going to add to an understanding of the series and its official content.
This isn't all about what we "like" to see. As with any of these policies, what we personally like should come last as a deciding factor.
I'd just like to clarify, I'm proposing we make separate pages for illustrator fan art, with each one attached to a main page. For example, all the illustrator art for Allen Avadonia goes to Allen Avadonia/Illustrations. I want us to use the term "illustration" to distinguish it from fan art made by anyone, although I can see Octo's point that the term may be problematic. If everyone is on board with another idea though, it has my support.
Anyway, now we are commenting about the images, I think it would be a good idea create categories for the images, so in that way it would be easier find them and keep track of any new addition, similar to the Song Categories on the Vocaloid Wiki. You know, it could be something like: "Images featuring Elluka Clockworker", "Images featuring Kagamine Rin", "Official Art", "Artist's interpretation", etc.
I've seen similar cases on other wikias, and works well, as the Categorized images are automatically displayed in a Gallery-like format.
I don't agree with creating separate pages solely for illustrator fanart. For most galleries it would be equivalent to making a page for one piece of art, and it still has that problem of linking the artwork with the character to the article full of canon information. I still think that we should instead put that art in their respective illustrator pages, to clarify that it is solely appreciated for its artistic value in relation to that artist, not because it has some importance or relevance to the character articles. Because it doesn't (unless the art in question is specifically presented as concept art, which if it was, it would already be in the concept art tab).
And I really don't think we should be referring to any of that as "illustrations" because as has already been said, it implies that it's somehow a canon depiction of what it's showing. It doesn't matter if the fanart is made by official artists or not--fanart is fanart. Ichika might stick to her designs pretty strictly but there are gaps in her knowledge just like anyone else, and that's not even getting into the liberties taken by other illustrators in their non-official work.
I agree with categorizing images, though I'm not entirely familiar with the logistics of all of it.
To clarify, I'm proposing we make separate pages for characters with a large number of fanart, such as Riliane, Allen and the other contractors. However, if we're going with the option of moving the art to their respective illustrator pages, I think we should retain the works of artists who haven't contributed extensively to Evillious in the Misc tab, since said artists don't have enough contributions to be given their own page.
I still disagree with leaving fanart in Misc. for all the other reasons I stated earlier, regardless of whether or not it has a place to go when it's moved. And I disagree with making separate pages for the fanart for those with a lot of fanart, although that does clear up 1 of the issues with it.
It's fanart. We should not be going out of our way to accomadate it on articles that are supposed to be about canon information.
How about an entirely separate page just for fanart? We can call it "Evillious Fanart" or something and have separate galleries for each illustrator. Because right now I like having only selected works in an illustrator's page on the wiki.
While I think it's good that we're at least trying to separate it, I find the most reason with what anon is saying. It's not something a Wiki should be including, especially, as they said, going out of our way to include, which is what creating an entire page for it would be doing.
Our goal is to gather canon information on a series and have it in one place. If an illustrator does not contribute to the series enough to have their own page, then the issue regarding their fanart has an easy solution: don't add it. Fanart is non-canon and made for fun. Whether you want to add Ichika's to the gallery or your own to the gallery, it still won't be relevant to the article or canon to the story.
I'd love to just get rid of all of it. But if it must stay, I'm all for getting it out of Misc. section and moving some of it to the Illustrator's page.
Resi makes some valid points. I'm changing my vote to keeping the fanart off the wiki. I'm sure those of us who still want to see it can find a way to compile the fanart on some other site such as Tumblr, or maybe someone's Sandbox.
I'm wary of leaving it up to Tumblr, but that's mostly me as a roleplayer and using this place as a source for easy access to icon material and character reference for art because sometimes fanart by people like Ichika can provide nice, new information about an outfit because we weren't allowed to see it from that angle in existing canon material and Tumblr is so extremely disconnected that it's up to chance if you even see it in the first place. So unless someone makes an official reblog blog for this, a lot of people are probably not going to even know it exists or have access to it. But that's another perspective on that and me being selfish.
I still advocate that all images go on a gallery page, personally, like mostotherwikiasdo . I don't understand this stubbornly sticking to our current formula other than, "It's what we've always done" when there's a formula that works better that's been so proven to work, I think this is the only wiki I can name that ISN'T some super tiny obscure fandom with a barely-updated wiki that hasn't been touched in half a year to three years... That still doesn't use some kind of gallery system.
Wait, I'm confused now. Anon, what exactly is your stance? You just said you advocate all images go on a gallery page. I'm assuming you mean all canon images, which excludes fanart. Are you suggesting that we make a separate page for just the Gallery and remove it from the main page altogether?
Yeah, what TheKindEvilliousResident~ said it's a valid point. Maybe simply we should remove ALL the fanart from the Misc gallery tab, while keeping the images into the wikia. If we categorize the images, the persons that come here for reasons like the mentioned by the Anon 184.108.40.206 still will have an available source.
However this causes another issue. What should we do with the fanart from non official sources or the images that aren't related to EC or the fandom at all? It seems we are going to need do a serious revision of the Image Policy
They are two different anons, and yes I believe that is the stance being advocated here. That may or may not be a different conversation altogether, one I currently have no substantial opinion on. The biggest issue size-wise we have is with the fanart and I still do not want keep them on canon character galleries, whether we make it a page or not.
For anon's first point, I believe an "official reblog blog" would be what Greek meant by compiling all the fanart on Tumblr or some other site. So if someone wants to do that, that would be nice for the roleplaying and art-loving part of the fandom who have a hard time with Ichika's twitter or tumblr blogs.
I can only assume that images which aren't related to EC or the fandom at all were uploaded for joke or meme reasons. I think that there could be a category for them, dunno what we'd call it, but others can probably just be erased.
I don't know the mechanics of categorizing images but I think that's a pretty good idea.
Greek, remember that you can add multiple categories for the same article, file or image.
My proposal would be something similar to the Song categories from the VOCALOID wiki:
Images featuring (Vocaloid character), as a broad category. Example: Images featuring Kagamine Rin, that would encopass all the Rin's character like Gretel, Riliane, Rin Chan, Rin Miroku, Waiter, etc
Images featuring (specific character). This would be more specific, but still it would cover both type of images, official pics and fanart.
Fanart from official collaborators. That would cover most of the issue discussed here
So, if we apply my idea, this image should be categorized as: Fanart from official collaborators; Images featuring Kagamine Len; Images featuring Kagamine Rin; Images featuring Riliane Lucifen d'Autriche; Images featuring Allen Avadonia.
Idk I find it a bit useless, a Vocaloid category images. We already have the "character represented by" category, and I know it is not the same thing, but still.
I think it would make the category section at the bottom of the page a lot messier and more confusing; imagine such thing for Elluka's page, it'd have: images featuring meiko, kaito, hatsune miku, kagamine rin, kagamine len, megurine luka, nekomura iroha, hiyama kiyoteru, gumi, leon, miriam, prima, neru akita, kasane teto, Tsukuyomi Shouta, camui gackpo, yowane haku
Even if you dont add "one time characters" like shouta, it would be an extremely ridiculous amount of tags. So that's a no for me.
Dany, Adept is proposing we add categories to the images themselves. But I agree with what Dany says, we already have broad Vocaloid categories for the characters. I think the reason why the Vocaloid Wiki has the Vocaloid category is because of how enormous the material it covers is - it spans multiple songs and series all by different cmposers. Meanwhile, our wiki only covers one series. (Also, I'd like to apologize to everyone for flip-flopping on this issue.)
Can you elaborate on why you don't want categories for pictures, Misstress?
I personally think it'd be a nicer way to search for appropriate images to add to articles than just typing in a word and hoping that word is part of the image's name. Plus it will let people find the fanart that we're going to be taking out of articles.
You'll have to ask Misstress what specifically they contributed to, then, unless it is an oversight, but it's not an intentional adding of irrelevant fanart to galleries either way. And it will be moot if the fanart gets removed anyway.
This discussion kinda died, so let me reiterate my proposal:
We put categories on images based on their type (Concept Art, Book Images, Song Images, etc.), as well as the characters they feature (ex. "Images Featuring Allen Avadonia"). For the case of fanart, the fanart will also be categorized according to the illustrator who made them (ex. "Fanart by Ichika").
We take out all the fanart from the galleries while still keeping it on the wiki. Because the images will be categorized, viewers who want to see the fanart can just go to the respective category; said category will be linked at the bottom of the Misc tab.
This is a very old point, but I firmly disagree with getting rid of all fanart and hosting a tumblr reblog blog for it. Doing that turns it into a "Who will bell the cat?" situation like everything else in this fandom - who's going to run it? Can the people running it search ever key term on every website every day to find everything? And most importantly, how can we keep this hypothetical blog from DYING like every other tumblr blog?
The old translation blogs for the EC novels haven't updated in months or years, for example, so unless someone gets ahold of the account info or just starts their own translation to finidh the job we can assume those projects are dead. This reblog blog would ABSOLUTELY end up with the same fate if we tried to do it. It's just not a good idea at all.
Plus, tumblr has a REALLY BAD REPUTATION of unsourced fanart, so whime reposting it to the WIKI may lead to the artist begrudgingly accepting it, reposting it to TUMBLR is guaranteed to upset them. Related, we should double check that everything's sourced correctly as well - reposts from twitter should link back to the original tweet, for example.
If we just move it to another tab on the page this will all be a moot point of course (except the sourcing part), but seriously, tumblr blogs for projects like that don't tend to live very long. Don't do it. The Wiki at least is always actively maintained by SOMEONE, so it's unlikely to just go dead one day, so stuff like that should be done HERE.
-I believe the idea was to remove all fanart from Misc. galleries PERIOD. I do not see why we would keep any around at all. All of the arguments for removing it (it's non-canon, can confuse people, and doesn't contribute to canon knowledge at all) still apply regardless of how much there is. Misc. should be used for things like, for example, playing cards and promotional work. Aside from that though, that's fine. Maybe have a link somewhere to the category so people know that it exists.
-I find part of your argument a little confusing--what is it about the wiki that makes reposting artwork acceptable on it and not on tumblr (I mean isn't it the same thing in both instances? reposting without permission? And if it's a matter of sourcing what's stopping you from adding a source on Tumblr?)?
-I, personally, don't care what happens to the fan art, but it has no place in canon character articles, as has already been established multiple times. It is NOT the wiki's responsbility or in its stated mission of providing an accessible source for EC information to make a place where people can easily look at fanart. So the tumblr blog itself wasn't suggested to be a better alternative to keeping it on the wiki, but a better alternative to simply tossing it when removing it from articles.
If fanart can be kept on the wiki when removing it from the articles (with the category idea), then it should be. If not, then at the risk of sounding like a hardass I don't see why "this wiki is more active than a tumblr" is a valid imperative justification for keeping it in with the official art when we've already argued why that's a bad idea and completely useless fluff to the article.
If the fanart is actually promotional work, or concept art, then maybe, but that feels like a separate beast at the moment.
Sorry if I misunderstood what was being said here in any way.
With a Wiki the original artists may find it UNDERSTANDABLE at least - a Wiki's job is to gather information and relevant images, and artwork by major recurring artists like Ichika is bound to end up on here anyway. Do note that we've technically ALREADY got ourselves in hot water by leaking and uploading illustrations from the novels, as for understandable reasons mothy and ichika probably DON'T want those getting spread around. But again, this is a WIKI, they'd be UPSET but would PROBABLY understand why we're doing it. Tumblr right now is such a mess with reposting art though that I wouldn't even risk it.
This is excluding artists who expressly forbid reposts, which is something I should have stated earlier - if an artist has it explicitly stated in their profile or something that they don't allow reposts, we remove it immediately. If they allow reposts wuth permission, we get that permission.
And when I say "the wiki is guaranteed not to go dead" - and the problem is NOT "tumblr is less active", it's "every single time we start a project on Tumblr it goes great for a few months and then DIES for seemingly no reason and we can't get it started again because no one can access the account". If we kept it SOMEWHERE on the Wiki at least we know it can be maintained, since everyone can access and update it whenever the person originally doing it leaves.
And for the love of god, can someone PLEASE create a mock-up visusl of just what on earth we're proposing we do with the fanart??? Are we creating gallery tabs like on wikis like the Umineko and Dangan Ronpa wiki??? Are we moving it to the illustrator's page??? Are we creating an entirely new article and category for it in the same way Rillianne's page is a page in the Rin character category??? Please stop changing proposals for FIVE MINUTES and just create a visual so that both I and EVERYONE ELSE have an idea of how this will all look instead of arguing and getting us nowhere.
I'm gonna say straight up I don't care for your tone. Please be respectful of the people in this forum.
Your entire argument completely ignores that it's not our job as a wiki to catalogue and make fanart accessible to fans--and especially at our inconvenience--period. It does not matter if that fanart is pretty fanart made by professional artists, either. It doesn't really matter to me whether artists would "understand more" if we put unsourced images on a wiki as opposed to a Tumblr, especially when it's really up to whoever the blog admin will be (it's certainly not going to be me) if the images are posted with a source or reblogged from the original artist.
The tumblr blog is not a necessity, it is not "we either keep the images on here or on Tumblr," it was just an idea someone had.
What we're basically preparing to do is remove the fanart from character pages. Everything else is secondary suggestions on what to do with the pictures so that people who want to still have them will know where they are.
We are not "changing proposals every five seconds," (especially since we've been having this discussion over several weeks,) we are cycling through a set amount of proposals for people who still want to be able to view the fanart that we are removing. So let me state those options clearly for you and everyone else who might be confused on this point:
1. We put some of it up on contributor's pages, under the argument it counts as "concept art" or some such excuse.
2. We take it off all articles but allow it to be found on the wiki through the image category system, which is a seperate proposal. (See Greek's post above for this in a bit more elaboration, basically.)
3. We take the pictures out and let them be gathered up on some other media site, either Tumblr or somewhere else. (This is the proposal you take the most issue with.)
4. We direct people to the artists' media sites so they can look all the pictures up themselves, which is really the default if the other three don't appeal.
I am not sure how a visual is necessary to clarify any of these options but if someone feels like rigging them up feel free. If none of those ideas appeal to you, it will not change that we are taking the pictures off the Misc. tab in character galleries. I think we've argued long enough on this point and I haven't seen one argument for keeping them that hasn't already been countered.
And I'm perfectly fine with taking them off the Misc. tab, what I'm trying to figure out is where on earth you intend to move them to. And I'm going to make it clear that I've had to read this thread in one go, so seeing everyone jump from one proposal to another with no clear visual reference of what, exactly, we're doing is EXTREMELY difficult to follow.
I'll ask you again - please give me a visual for the Wiki-based options you are proposing. Please give me a frame of reference. As is, I am having an extremely difficult time trying to picture just what the proposals even are - are you guys planning do to something like this or this, in which the article is divided into tabs? Just what do you mean by "allowing it to be found through the image category system"? Is it likethis? Is there some other system I'm unaware of? I genuinely don't understand just what you're all proposing we do. Someone actually explain PLEASE.
-Dividing up the articles into a gallery tab was something that was suggested before we decided that they were going to be taken off the character articles entirely. It's not one of Octo's current proposals.
-Adding them to contributor pages is literally just putting them in the galleries for contributor articles, which is something that already exists such as on ichika's page.
-Allowing it to be found through the category system would just be that the images are uploaded to the wiki, but they are not put on any pages. They, like articles, can have categories added to them, and if someone wants to find them then they can simply click on a category and see the images that pop up. I really don't know how that can be any clearer. On the Vocaloid wiki, for example, they have a category called "software box img". If you want to look at Vocaloid software boxes, you click the category and it shows all of the software box images that have been uploaded to the wiki under that category.
The other admins and I have decided to remove all illustrator fanart from the character galleries. However, as a compromise we will be making the "Illustrator Fanart" category available for anyone who wants to see the art.
This is a big change, so everyone's help is appreciated. The steps are:
Go to a character's Misc tab
Click on each piece of illustrator fanart and go to the appropriate page