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  • NOTE: This thread is a repost of the original thread closed on May 4, 2016. Please see the previous iteration to view past discussions.

    This thread is for the discussion of the above named album and its previous Act 1 and Act 2 iterations.

    Changes to the wiki related to these albums should be first brought forward, debated, and decided upon here. Feel free to also use this to discuss theories, give praises, or vent frustrations about the albums or their contents.

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    • Can I propose this image of Milky? Her eyes are open and her mouth close in this one.
      Milkyavatar4
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    • I like that one

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    • I prefer that one as well. Emuei, could you do the same for Ly?

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    • My thoughts are the same of GT


      Anyway, how do we treat the locations of the 'Ma' Survival song?

      • The temple. The lyrics explicitely say that the four girls are 
        Maidensinthetemple

        The temple

        gathered in the 'the temple'. Should we assume that it is the Levia-Behemo temple? Or another one? Because keeping Elluka (and a suspected HER!) in the place where she was banned seems a little weird :/
      • Altar

        Altar

        The altar. Looking at the PV, it seems safe to assume that the altar was also the place where the new queen appeared to the public.

      Also I'm in favour of adding the new pictures to these locations in the Levianta page

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    • Ly seems to be covered by quite a lot of text more than Milky. I'll try my best

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    • Danytaly wrote: My thoughts are the same of GT


      Anyway, how do we treat the locations of the 'Ma' Survival song?

      • The temple. The lyrics explicitely say that the four girls are 
        Maidensinthetemple

        The temple

        gathered in the 'the temple'. Should we assume that it is the Levia-Behemo temple? Or another one? Because keeping Elluka (and a suspected HER!) in the place where she was banned seems a little weird :/

      Nobody ever said the senate and laboratory scientists were 'smart' (or not weird lol). I really like the images of the temple, and I am assuming that it is supposed to be the Levia-Behemo Temple

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    • I know that this isn't the sort of thing that everyone's talking about right now, and the recent issues with trivia make this a little muddled (I think it qualifies and it has enough evidence but that's me) but with this PV reveal of the aesthetics and other features of the Magic Kingdom Levianta I'd like to propose it added to the trivia that, associations with Russia or not, the ancient kingdom is inspired by Rome. Reasons:

      -Buildings that are strongly reminiscent of Roman architecture (both the pillars in the temple and the arches/barrel vaults near the end of the song were often used in Roman buildings)

      -Ruled by a Senate in addition to a queen (the actual word for Senate used is the same Japanese word for the Roman Senate in particular)

      -Massive control over a wide range of countries with a great deal of cultural influence among them.

      -Cast part of the world into a sort of dark age when the kingdom fell, and was much more advanced than the centuries following it.

      -Origin of the Levin religion (Christianity began in a Roman territory and eventually led to there being a Christian emperor.)

      -A focus on the idea that it was once a proud kingdom that was destroyed under its own extravagance. (as well the backstabbing and assassinations in vying for the position of ruler, one of Rome's noted features after it became an empire).

      I mean, the trivia saying it's Russia is that it has slavic names and a cold climate. I think this is enough evidence in my opinion to say definitively that Rome is the intended culture being drawn on in its past.

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    • I strongly agree with this anon. I've always thought of the roman empire when reading about Magic Kingdom Levianta.

      Another point in common is the "rivalry" between MKL and Elphegort, which reminds me of Roman empire vs German tribes (the romans weren't able to acquire some german territories due to their resistance). Another common thing is the difference in religion: Germans had their german god and the people were considered barbarians and heretics by the Romans, just like MKL marked Heldgortians as heretics.

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    • I'm going to add another note and say that Milky's outfit really seems to be drawing from Greek/Roman clothing styles (or at least popular conception of them.) I'm mostly looking at the sandals, of course, but still. I still think that the Russia/Slavic inspiration is also there, but visually and thematically the old kingom draws more from Rome

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    • Octofan wrote:
      Milky boobs- sandals this time.

      Yeah, I agree. Other points I came up with:

      • the existence of priestesses is a Roman reference (vestal virgins).
      • the Emperor being a prophet/person-closer-to-god (sometimes even a God) (pontifex literally meant a bridget between gods and humans) is a Roman thing
      • Idk if it's just me, but the white long sleeves with golden borders (of queen Irina's dress) really reminds me of pope clothes. I've already asked Ichika if she had any reference in mind for that dress so we'll know relatively soon.
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    • > > Well I mean priestesses and godlike emperors is definitely not exclusive to Rome, so mostly I'd just be interested to see what Ichika's inspiration is.

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    • My only problem with this is that... Wasn't Beelzenia explicitly said by Mothy to be inspired by Rome, especially its downfall? Wouldn't that mean that Evillious had, essentially, two Roman Empires?

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    • I'd like to see the source for mothy having explicitly said that himself (the trivia on Beelzenia's page doesn't make a link to one), but it wouldn't necessarily be too far fetched. Beelzenia could be based more closely on the Holy Roman Empire, which formed after the fall of the actual Roman Empire and followed much of the same historical timeline of becoming very influential and powerful before slowly being whittled down to nothing by modern times.

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    • Makes sense.

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    • Definitely possible.

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    • I also agree with MKL being based on the Roman Empire, given these strong parallels. Along with the Tasan Empire, this gives us three states inspired by Rome in the Evillious universe.

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    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      I also agree with MKL being based on the Roman Empire, given these strong parallels. Along with the Tasan Empire, this gives us three states inspired by Rome in the Evillious universe.

      Rome rulez. Anyway, anyone opposed to Kiril and Elluka's new avis?

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    • So mothy added the desciption "[013] The End Of E" for survival in mylist

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    • The end of Evil? Could also be The end of Elluka (lol I kid)

      I've got nothing against Kiril and Elluka's avis

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      So mothy added the desciption "[013] The End Of E" for survival in mylist

      The first thing I thought of was Elluka actually.

      Anyway, we should at least add it in the song's trivia.

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    • Maybe Mothy meant for it to be a pun?

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    • On the subject of Levianta being inspired by the Roman Empire,there are actually 4 "Roman Empires" to take into consideration: the Roman Empire itself, the Byzantine Empire which was the eastern half of the empire when it split, the Western half of the Roman Empire, and then the Holy Roman Empire which is related to the original empire only in name.

      In this case, Levianta is the Roman Empire, Devine Levianta is the Holy Roman Empire, and Beelzenia is either the Byzantine Empire or the Western half.

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    • Danytaly wrote:
      • The temple. The lyrics explicitely say that the four girls are 
        Maidensinthetemple

        The temple

        gathered in the 'the temple'. Should we assume that it is the Levia-Behemo temple? Or another one? Because keeping Elluka (and a suspected HER!) in the place where she was banned seems a little weird :/
      • Altar

        Altar

        The altar. Looking at the PV, it seems safe to assume that the altar was also the place where the new queen appeared to the public.

      Also I'm in favour of adding the new pictures to these locations in the Levianta page

      I can agree with this one, based on the timing and relevance, though the four of them having a standoff at the temple is a bit more vague imo.

      Astrophysics Person wrote:

      In this case, Levianta is the Roman Empire, Devine Levianta is the Holy Roman Empire, and Beelzenia is either the Byzantine Empire or the Western half.

      Or we just have to accept that mothy spreads very obvious draws from a popular western imperial power for ancient history across multiple countries. Beelzenia, Levianta, and to a lesser extent Tasan all have aspects that fit general historical events with Rome or share aspects of its culture. We see Beelzenia take inspiration from multiple real-life countries so it's not like a single country defines all aspects of every one of mothy's fictional countries (though some seem more inclined to than others).


      I counted two responses in the last thread so I'll reiterate: we're doing a name change for Survival Ma to Ma Survival. Do we want to include the ' ' like in the current translation of the title or remove them to coincide with mothy's updated PV title? If in favor of removing them, would you want the ' ' removed from Project 'Ma' and not translated future songs that use the Japanese 「」 as well?

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    • Remove from survival but keep them in project for now atleast

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    • Servant of Evillious wrote:

      Or we just have to accept that mothy spreads very obvious draws from a popular western imperial power for ancient history across multiple countries. Beelzenia, Levianta, and to a lesser extent Tasan all have aspects that fit general historical events with Rome or share aspects of its cutlure.


      I don't see why we have to accept such generality. There are reasons to think that specific aspects of the branches of the Roman Empire that sprang up after the core one's demise can be roughly ascribed to Empires that sprang up in Evillious in the wake of Magic Kingdom Levianta's fall.

      For the reasons I've stated, Magic Kingdom Levianta seems to be a clear-cut relation to the original Roman Empire. In the historical timeline of the world, the Roman Empire is long gone by the time countries like, say France and England started popping up. The Holy Roman and Byzantine empires, on the other hand, were definitely still around for a long time even as their power and influence dwindled due to these rising national powers. Therefore it seems pretty safe to say that they are NOT based on Rome but one of the offshooting empires that sprung up after its fall.

      If they all seem to be drawing on vaguely similar concepts it's because A) Rome heavily culturally influenced the countries left behind in its wake and B) the later empires had a historical timeline that went somewhat similarly to Rome.

      Like, none of these are direct translations of the real-world equivalent and I'm sure he's mixing a matching a little more than I've stated here but that doesn't mean "All of them are based on the same imperial power" has to be our policy on this. It's my opinion that out of all of them, only MKL is intended to be like the original Roman Empire specifically.

      As for the title, I personally was always in favor of "Ma Survival" but let it rest because it was kept "Survival Ma" to match "Project 'Ma'". So I'm in favor of changing it now that mothy has contributed his official translation. Since he has removed the apostrophe/quote marks, I think it would also be alright to remove those on the wiki.

      I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the second bit but I think not putting in the quote marks in all cases of 「」 for future titles without an official translation is a completely unnecessary measure. Mothy took out the 「」 in this case, that doesn't mean that he'd do the same for all of them. And if they are there, they should be translated as such.

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    • I agree with the anon on the translating the title bit. No reason to remove the quotes on other titles just yet.

      I also have to agree that I don't see that many, if any, cultural references to Rome in the Beelzenian Empire, in direct contrast to Magic Kingdom Levianta. Aside from being loosely based on the Spain/Italy area, that is. We could say it's like Rome "because it had territories and then lost them" but a lot of empires end up doing that.

      I don't know how to feel about connecting it to the Holy Roman Empire since that's mostly Germany (although they did have some of Italy, too, so there's that.) But yes.

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    • I think upon looking at the article for the Tasan Empire a bit more I can see that and MKL as being both based on Roman Empire. But I definitely would not say the same of Beelzenia, and nobody has brought up a source for that particular association yet.

      The fall of the Roman Empire is what kick-started the middle ages--I just find it extremely sketchy to claim that an empire that rose up after the Evillious middle-ages had started is still Rome despite there being clear real-world parallels to later imperial forces that aren't Rome.

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    • 146.113.65.245 wrote:

      I don't see why we have to accept such generality.

      I put the "or" preceding that to indicate it as just another option but I can see how the wording gives a different impression. Mea culpa.

      For the reasons I've stated, Magic Kingdom Levianta seems to be a clear-cut relation to the original Roman Empire. In the historical timeline of the world, the Roman Empire is long gone by the time countries like, say France and England started popping up.

      The Holy Roman and Byzantine empires, on the other hand, were definitely still around for a long time even as their power and influence dwindled due to these rising national powers. Therefore it seems pretty safe to say that they are NOT based on Rome but one of the offshooting empires that sprung up after its fall.

      I'm not making the connection. Safe to say they're not based on Rome because other empires were founded during or after Rome's collapse? Going back to my last post, there's a whole another way of looking at that so I can't agree it's a clear-cut as you're saying. I agree with what's provided for Levianta having a Rome inspiration but I can do the same with Beelzenia or Tasan.

      If they all seem to be drawing on vaguely similar concepts it's because A) Rome heavily culturally influenced the countries left behind in its wake and B) the later empires had a historical timeline that went somewhat similarly to Rome.

      So Byzantine was split in two before being conquered by the Holy Roman Empire? XD

      The issue with vague inspirations is they're not going to be perfect facsimiles but if we are going by vague history, a country like Tasan which coexisted with Levianta has less in common with Byzantine than it does with Rome. By saying there's a similar timeline to Rome, you're suggesting it could be inspired by Rome itself as well or has no inspiration with any country (I'd be surprised on the latter but it's possible).

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    • Octofan wrote:
      I agree with the anon on the translating the title bit. No reason to remove the quotes on other titles just yet.

      I'm of the same opinion so that puts a majority in favor of removing the quotes for Survival and keeping the rest as is.

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    • IIRC Beelzenia influenced other countries greatly, which is part of why Rome or one of its offshoots was fingered. It had lasting affects culturally in numerous locations on par with Rome and its off-shoots.

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    • Tasan could be like the last standing leg of Rome in this case..? But either way, it doesn't really matte that much. However, it is a good thing that the missing reference for the Beelzenia=Roman Empire was pointed out, since we should have a reference. Otherwise we end up with a Elluka and Irina were born the girl from BSS; although maybe not quite as damaging since it's only trivia.

      We could include that the temple has similar architecture to ancient Roman architecture.

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    • そういやMaサバイバルで四人が持ってる武器。リィとイリーナはざっくりと指定があったんだけどあとの二人はお任せな感じだったので、私の趣味やイメージや解釈で描かせてもらいました。ミルキーにはでかい武器持たせたかった。最初は斧とか考えてた。

      Ichika said on her twitter that Ly's and Irina's weapons are specifically designated [by mothy] while the other two's are just a combination of her own liking and interpretation. She wanted Milky to have something huge, like an axe [but it ended up a Flamberge].

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    • Emuei wrote:
      そういやMaサバイバルで四人が持ってる武器。リィとイリーナはざっくりと指定があったんだけどあとの二人はお任せな感じだったので、私の趣味やイメージや解釈で描かせてもらいました。ミルキーにはでかい武器持たせたかった。最初は斧とか考えてた。

      Ichika said on her twitter that Ly's and Irina's weapons are specifically designated [by mothy] while the other two's are just a combination of her own liking and interpretation. She wanted Milky to have something huge, like an axe [but it ended up a Flamberge].

      So Irina's knife might be pretty important in the future (or mothy just wanted to have small and short Irina have a small and short knife lol). I'd have liked to see an axe wielding Milky though

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    • mothy's tweets about the PV:


      【Maサバイバル動画メモ】リィ関係の後日談は「東の広大な国」というのがミソ。 蛇国のことじゃないよ。

      The big eastern country of Li's relatives is Miso(?). Not Jakoku.


      ミルキーの子孫については深読みする必要はない。某「財団」を設立したのは……。 一連の小説読んでない人にはわけわからんだろうけど。

      You shouldn't read too much into the Milky's descendant thing. The person who established that Foundation is... If you're not reading the novel series you might not know.


      個人的見どころは勝者の顔芸

      Personal favorite moment / highlight (of the PV) is the winner's facial expression.


      動画中でリィの持っている武器は、レヴィアンタ魔道王国に伝わる由緒正しき双剣。 のちになぜかムーンリット家の手に渡り……

      Ly's weapon is the Levianta Magic Kingdom's twin swords that were passed down the linage(?). Later, for some reason, fell into the hands of the Moonlit Family.


      2コーラスめ辺りに出る文字は七つの大罪ではなく「八つの枢要罪」

      Before the second chorus, the kanji characters are not the Seven Deadly Sins (but rather the Eight Cardinal Sins)


      エルドが悪神扱いなのは、あの文面が元老院資料からの抜粋だから。 (当時のレヴィアンタはレヴィアビヒモ以外の神を異端扱いしていた)

      The information about Held being treated as evil god, is an excerpt from The Senate's documents. (At that time, any god other than Levia Behemo was regarded as heresy)

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    • I know we probably don't have enough to put it on the pages but I'm very sure Miso(?) is the not-really-there-anymore country that guardsman was hyping up to Elluka and Gumillia.

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    • Miso soup lol


      I agree with Octo though; it would seem that Mothy is pointing us towards the not-so-there-country-that-is-a-vast-wasteland-and-a-wall-with-a-guard that was trying to keep Elluka and Gumillia from passing.

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    • Octofan wrote: I know we probably don't have enough to put it on the pages but I'm very sure Miso(?) is the not-really-there-anymore country that guardsman was hyping up to Elluka and Gumillia.

      I'd like that very much, but it wouldn't really make any sense to have a guard that prevents foreigners to come in, when it was founded by foreigners.. Anyway it might be intentional, because of mothy's frequent irony and stuff. I'm pretty neutral on the matter, but like servy stated, we don't have enough info to say that (except for a small triviaish thing?). I want to read the translation of the tweet about "the country that was nothing" first.

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    • Danytaly wrote:

      snip

      I'd like that very much, but it wouldn't really make any sense to have a guard that prevents foreigners to come in, when it was founded by foreigners.. Anyway it might be intentional, because of mothy's frequent irony and stuff. I'm pretty neutral on the matter, but like servy stated, we don't have enough info to say that (except for a small triviaish thing?). I want to read the translation of the tweet about "the country that was nothing" first.


      Here Dany, the link to the tweet on Twitter.


      Edit: It would help if I actually posted the link

      https://twitter.com/mothy_akuno/status/727845163406499841

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    • Danytaly wrote:

      Octofan wrote: I know we probably don't have enough to put it on the pages but I'm very sure Miso(?) is the not-really-there-anymore country that guardsman was hyping up to Elluka and Gumillia.

      I'd like that very much, but it wouldn't really make any sense to have a guard that prevents foreigners to come in, when it was founded by foreigners.. Anyway it might be intentional, because of mothy's frequent irony and stuff. I'm pretty neutral on the matter, but like servy stated, we don't have enough info to say that (except for a small triviaish thing?). I want to read the translation of the tweet about "the country that was nothing" first.

      Yeah, and my position is pretty much the same regarding it. That said, assuming that is the name and not some slang in katakana I'm missing, I think it should be listed alongside Jakoku for the Enkoku section of Bolganio.

      Since we've talked pretty thouroughly about a lot of topics, going to reiterate a few for a quick consensus:

      1) Are we assuming the images Dany put up are showing the Levia-Behemo Temple and "altar" respectively?

      2) Are we assuming the peculiar knife in Kiril's hands at the end of the PV is Grim the End (prior to becoming a vessel of sin)?

      3) Are we considering the beginning of the PV an appearance (not just a mention) of Black Box?

      4) What translation for Tristitia (sorrow/despair/depression/etc) in these "Eight Evil Thoughts" will we be going with for future reference?

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    • 1) I agree with the temple and altar.

      2) I think it's better if we don't assume Kiril's knife is Grim the End.

      3) I'm torn about this.

      4) Despair or Depression, I don't think sorrow fits.

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      1. Yes.
      2. No, I don't think we should assume anything just yet. We could mention, however, the fact that it could possibly be Grim the End.
      3. No.
      4. I'm no expert on this stuff so I'll remain neutral.
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    • 1. Yes.

      2. No.

      3. No.

      4. Wikipedia uses sorrow in their article on Evagrius Ponticus, so I would use sorrow.

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    • 1) Yes

      2) No

      3) Idk. I'm neautral about this

      4) Definetely Sorrow. Tristitia literally means sadness in latin, and sadness was considered a sin because you didn't appreciate life and stuff. So I believe sorrow fits, both as an accurate translation and regarding the meaning used in the series/context. Irina definetely isn't depressed.

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    • 1) Ye

      2) Ye

      3) No

      4) Sorrow

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    • 1) Yes

      2) no

      3) ***

      4) Sorrow or Despair, either is fine to me

      ***I was originally going to say no then I remembered what the Black Box (at least Allen's) did. It taught him the history of the world, so I suppose those are recorded bios of the candidates (there's even soundwave/graph effects in the background if you wanna make that connection). At least that's what I'm getting from it. But I'm on the fence.

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    • In this case of Sins, I think they would all be synonyms anyway. Sorrow and depression are both forms of sadness, and this sad feelings would be what cause Sloth(lack of motivation), not that Irina is slothful. The difference is, I think, sorrow is more connected to guilt whereas depression is not. Irina doesn't seem to feel guilty about killing the other three, she does however feel depressed because her brother loves Elluka more then he loves her, so I would use depression over sorrow in this case.

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    • 1) Yes

      2) I'm not sure

      3) Yes

      4) I'm not a translator, but I'm also neutral either way

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    • I would advise against using Depression, considering we're talking about the Eight Evil Thoughts and depression is a mental illness and... you get what I'm saying?

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    • You are thinking of clinical depression, and Irina doesn't seem to have that. You can be depressed with out have depression. Either way, you might be right about not wanting to use it, despair works just as well here.

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    • Scarletta Agni wrote:
      I would advise against using Depression, considering we're talking about the Eight Evil Thoughts and depression is a mental illness and... you get what I'm saying?

      The issue is more so that different sources (both in English and Japanese) widely vary in the English translation for this, including depression. For the Japanese terminology itself, the word for depression/meloncholy is used.

      Regardless, I'm seeing a majority in favor of Dany's postulation, against assuming Kiril is holding Grim the End for now, mixed on the Black Box topic, and heavily in favor of using "Sorrow" as the translation. I'll give all but the Black Box portion a pass then so we can move on with articles.


      To give the topic elaboration: the beginning of the PV gives us the "Black Box Archive" where information for the four potential candidates are provided along with a black grid that's commonly used in association with other black boxes in the series. The very mention of it assures it's not going to go unlisted but do users feel that this look into the "archive" counts as an appearance of the box itself?

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    • Um...yes? That makes me get a vibe that it is what Alexiel is seeing, so that means the black box is actually the one showing us that information. Also, for the sorrow vs despair, isn't it 2-2? It is still a tie.

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    • Servant of Evillious wrote:

      Dany was right and will rule the world one day. The very mention of it assures it's not going to go unlisted but do users feel that this look into the "archive" counts as an appearance of the box itself?

      Yeap

      Alexiel Lucifen wrote:
       Also, for the sorrow vs despair, isn't it 2-2? It is still a tie.

      Scarletta, Dany, Misstress, Astrophysics Person prefer Sorrow; Emuei prefers depression, the others are neutral :I

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    • Hi, Just passing by Because I want to say something about The Sorrow/Despair/Sadness stuff. People are saying "Irina isn't depressed" and all... But you're interpreting This Sin In A modern way. Not with The context. The Eight Evil Thoughts were The ancestors of The Seven Deadly Sins. Sadness is In fact The ancestor of Envy : That The Sin That replaced sorrow In The Seven. Because Sadness was The fact to be sad when you're comparing Your Life to The other's,You where desesperate Because You couldn't reach The state of Life of The others, You abandon all hope Because You can't obtain what You want and what other have. So This old interpretation of sadness corresponds better with The jealous Irina, No ? (Sorry for The bad english I'm french)

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    • Danytaly wrote:

      Servant of Evillious wrote:

      Dany was right and will rule the world one day.

      [Snip]

      Scarletta, Dany, Misstress, Astrophysics Person prefer Sorrow; Emuei prefers depression, the others are neutral :I

      I see what you did there, Dany. ;P

      And yeah, Lexi miscounted. If we want to argue it further, then I'll include my opinion that Sorrow is my preference as well.

      93.25.171.218 wrote:
      Snip.

      What I've read actually says it was later merged with Sloth and Envy was added separately but nice interpretation all the same. It's important to point out the meanings in these contexts are not necessarily the same as general modern use (vainglory's become synonymous with vanity or hubris, for instance).


      To get back to the infobox image suggestions, I'd also like to add the possibility of updating our Original Sin Story characters section. Kiril's got an article and a face now and Levia, Behemo, Milky, Ly, and Pale might be prominent enough to count.

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    • Servant of Evillious wrote:

      To get back to the infobox image suggestions, I'd also like to add the possibility of gosh, my love for Dany is really burning updating our Original Sin Story characters section. Kiril's got an article and a face now and Levia, Behemo, Milky, Ly, and Pale might be prominent enough to count.

      Yeah I agree. How about we divide the things into the 3 Acts? We know, from OSSCE, that Eve, Adam and Meta are in Act1, Elluka and Levia are in Act 2 and Seth, Hansel and Gretel are in Act 3. We could add Pale and L&B in Act 1 (given their overall importance to this arc especially), and  Ly, Milky and Kiril in Act 2. Of course it's a bit of a stretch so if you guys prefer avoiding the Act division it's fine by me.

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    • Danytaly wrote:

      Servant of Evillious wrote:

      To get back to the infobox image suggestions, I'd also like to add the possibility of gosh, my love for Dany is really burning [Snip]

      There it is again.

      I think it would be better to handle it like we do Story of Evil in this case.

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    • Hi ! The french guy again ! About the Sorrow thing (I will call it Sorrow like everyone refers to it), let me explain... I don't know if that interest you but I do it anyway :P

      So... It's true that Sorrow was merged with Sloth, and it's also true that it gave birth to Envy.

      In the Eight list, there was Sorrow with the meaning I told you earlier, and there was Sloth, but it wasn't exactly Sloth - it was Acedia. While Sloth is a lack of effort and work caused by a great love of pleasure and rest, Acedia was more a "spiritual" sloth. In Acedia, you were not doing anything because it was pointless - it was a sin that afflicted in particular the monks. After doing a thing you love or important to you (pray in the desert for exemple) 24 hours per day for a long time, you get fed up and tired of it. You don't have energy to do it, you don't see the point in that or the utility of what you're doing. And this depression-like state where you can't see the point and utility of everything was Acedia, the first "form" of Sloth.

      When the Seven list was made, the one who did it (was it Evagrius ? I don't remember his name) saw the similarities between Sorrow and Acedia. So he took out Sorrow, and merged it's "despair/sadness" side with Acedia. And with the "jealous/insatisfied by seeing other well being" side, he created a "new" sin : Envy.

      But there is still clue of the fact that Envy was Sadness/Sorrow/Despair before. Today, Envy is considered to be a sin which gives its sinner the desire to stole from other the object of their envy, or at least deprive the envied personne of the envied object. And we are told that, if the sinner succed into depriving it's, let's say victim, from the object of envy, the sinner will take a great pleasure in the suffering of the victim. And so the Deadly Sin will lead into Sadism/Cruelty. But, if the sinner fails to deprive it's victim, then he will always compare himself to the "victim" and always feel sad. And so the Deadly Sin will lead into Despair, and a total loss of hope.

      Actually, I don't know if you can call the two resolutions of Envy as "Mortal Sins" because "Mortal Sins" are more acts, like murder, suicide or rape, but like the Deadly Sins are the sins that give birth to Mortal and Venial sins, I think I can call Despair and Sadism/Cruelty Mortal Sins...

      Well, I think that's all I have to say for the moment. Finaly I had an occasion to expose my studying of the Seven Deadly Sins ~ 

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    • The word for Depression may have been used simply for lack of a better word to fit with the old sin of Sorrow, keep in mind. That doesn't make it actually accurate to what is being described, given that English has thousands of very similar words for smaller differences.

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    • Dany, didn't Seth appear in act one? He was in Project "Ma"

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    • I'm opposed to the idea of dividing it into acts. For the Seven Deadly Sins Series dividing it up is unavoidable because each arch is so far apart from the others, but in the Original Sin Story that's not true. The characters in Act 1 are all still around and relevant in Act 2 and Act 3. It would be like if the Story of Evil was divided into acts based on the novels.

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    • Alexiel Lucifen wrote:
      Dany, didn't Seth appear in act one? He was in Project "Ma"

      Yes, he did. He's in Project Ma but also in Escape of the Witch, Salmhofer


      As for the Acts thing, it's a neat idea, but I do agree that it's actually rather needless.

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    • I'm also against dividing the Characters section into acts, for the same reasons mentioned by Astro.

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    • We won't be dividing them into acts then, it'll be handled like with Story of Evil.

      Reiterating the earlier topic on Black Box to finish up the appearances stuff:

      Servant of Evillious wrote:
      To give the topic elaboration: the beginning of the PV gives us the "Black Box Archive" where information for the four potential candidates are provided along with a black grid that's commonly used in association with other black boxes in the series. The very mention of it assures it's not going to go unlisted but do users feel that this look into the "archive" counts as an appearance of the box itself?

      And then we just have infobox images. The colored illustration of Ly smiling seemed to be getting the most preference of the two so I used that for the OSS page. Are we going to be using that for her infobox too? The same goes for updating Elluka, Ly, Kiril, etc.

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    • About the black box, if it is decided to be an appearance then would it also be an appearance in Re_birthday? (edit: whoops its already mentioned on the black box page)

      If that happens, then since Re_birthday turns yellow then does, Clockwork Lullaby count?

      Also there's a scene in The Muzzle of Nemesis (I think at hello and good bye my father) where there are seven rings and a grid in the background (I can't confirm that because I'm at school) would that be an appearance too?

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    • Wrong blackbox, I think.

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      • Has Black Box ever been described as having a grid? If not, I vote we count Black Box's appearance in Ma Survival as just a mention.
      • Also, I prefer the first option for Ly's avi in the previous thread (the one with the blue lines) as well as the one Emuei suggested for Milky.
      • Someone in the EC Facebook group made a subbed video of the song, can the YouTube link be changed to that?
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    • Has the inside of it ever been actually described?

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    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      • Someone in the EC Facebook group made a subbed video of the song, can the YouTube link be changed to that?

      Since the youtube link we have is to mothy's official upload, no

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    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      • Also, I prefer the first option for Ly's avi in the previous thread (the one with the blue lines) as well as the one Emuei suggested for Milky.

      I liked that Ly avi better as well.

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    • Astrophysics Person wrote:

      I liked that Ly avi better as well.

      Looks like this choice will be a little more contested.

      GreekTelepath wrote:
      *Has Black Box ever been described as having a grid? If not, I vote we count Black Box's appearance in Ma Survival as just a mention.

      As I mentioned in the quoted block, it's only been other, similar Black Boxes. The question becomes whether we consider the Archive part of Black Box itself. If so, then it's an appearance. Otherwise, we'll leave it as just mentioned.

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    • It should be, otherwise why would the black save information on a separate location and where would its external drives be? I think the archive is saved with in the box.

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    • For the characters section of the OSS page, why not adding L&B and Elluka Clockworker? I mean Levia and Behemo are hugely important and so is Elluka. If we go by the songs, L&B appear/are mentioned in 4 songs and Our Elluka in 3. Another really important is Maria Moonlit, but I dunno if we accept characters without images

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    • Elluka Clockworker only shows up in Chrono Story, which is the tail end of OSS (same deal for Whereabouts, she only shows up at the end of that too.) I don't believe she is important to Original Sin Story, at least not enough to put her in the characters section. Important to the series as a whole, yes, but you can understand pretty much the whole OSS story without even mentioning her.

      Levia and Behemo, though, they probably should get shown. Not sure about Maria, although we have had character sections on other pages without images (albeit they weren't media pages.)

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    • I'm good for L&B, and I suppose we could put Maria. I'm sleep deprived so I'm not really reacting to the idea of Maria like I usually would. Technically speaking, Maria is an important side character, although really only in terms of being Queen and the prophecy, at least with the given information at this moment. As for Elluka Clockworker, I agree with Octo, although I could see why people would want her.

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    • I support adding L&B and am neutral regarding Elluka and Maria.

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    • I lean towards Octo's view for the most part, but am fine with either.

      Looks like there is a majority in favor of Levia and Behemo being included though so I'll give that a pass.

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    • Most Romance languages (Spanish, French, Italian, Catalan, Portuguese, etc.) use the same word for both sadness and pain (e.g. dolor, dolore, douleur) while Portuguese uses different words: "Tristeza" for sadness/sorrow and "dor" for pain. The same happens in Latin: Tristitia and dolor. Depression and despair are separate things, too.

      If you want to be literal, I think sadness/sorrow would be the best option. But interpreting it some more, maybe depression or melancholy could fit. I prefer sorrow anyway.

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    • Macaronpied wrote: Da snip

      I think it was already decided that Tristitia would be sadness. And anyway, since Latin has this "distinction" between sadness and pain, it should be pretty obvious that Italian has that too... >.>

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    • Danytaly wrote:

      Macaronpied wrote: Da snip

      I think it was already decided that Tristitia would be sadness. And anyway, since Latin has this "distinction" between sadness and pain, it should be pretty obvious that Italian has that too... >.>

      There is a slight difference between general sadness and sorrow, it is the guilt factor. Irina is more sad then sorry, she only felt sort when killing Elluka, she was sad the whole time because Kiril she thought Kiril didn't care about her. I don't get why you want to use sorrow as the translation when she didn't feel sorrow until the very end.

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    • I just realized that the avis haven't been updated all this time. How does everyone feel about using these? (Sidenote: we don't really have other options for Kiril and Elluka Chirclatia.)

      EllukaChirclatiaavatar
      Kirilavatar2
      Lyavatar2
      Milkyavatar2

      I also propose that we use the image of Irina watching Kiril and Elluka for the Clockworker Family page.

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    • I like all these ideas, I think Kiril's was already supposed to have been changed too ooo

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    • I'm in favor of all the avi changes

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    • YES please finally. Also yay for the IrinaEllukaKiril image as family page image age sage cage wage.

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    • Add all of these.

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    • mmmm I don't wanna be a nitpick but I think Kiril and Elluka's avis could be tweaked a bit and be more centered (Ellu's head looks a bit to close to the top when there's available usable space above it, and Kiril can be zoomed in on a bit more)

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    • Scarletta Agni wrote: mmmm I don't wanna be a nitpick but I think Kiril and Elluka's avis could be tweaked a bit and be more centered (Ellu's head looks a bit to close to the top when there's available usable space above it, and Kiril can be zoomed in on a bit more)

      My thoughts as well. Updated the avis.

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    • Since there are no objections, I'm going to go ahead and implement them.

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    • Crossposting redladydeath's post here:

      Redladydeath wrote: Um, I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but Original Sin Story Complete and Muzzle of Nemesis are available for pre-order on American iTunes.

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    • Other than getting lucky with finding SCAP on Amazon, I haven't gotten any of the other CDs, so YAY!! :D

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    • A FANDOM user
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