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  • So I don't really know if anybody noticed, but in SCaP (Mini-Novel), when Allen and Hansel run into Irregular and Irregular starts to try to get the doll from Hansel's hands, Hansel tells him that there is somebody(else's soul; i.e. Eve) in there.


    So, we knew for a little bit that MoTC wasn't Eve, but this solidifies it. I don't have any clue who could be in the Doll afterwards, although I always liked the idea of Michelle Marlon (don't ask me how) just because it meant Gallerian actually had his daughter around. I don't actually think it's Michelle; but I'm interested in what other people might theorize.

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    • Maybe it's Maria Moonlit. In her song she has a close connection with her "parents," and MoTC was close to her "father." In "Queen of the Glass," Maria says that she has no heart or life like a doll. So there are a lot of similarities between the two characters. With the information currently available, Maria fits as MoTC, though how her soul got inside the clockworks doll is a complete mystery.

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    • I'd say Maria was our big candidate as well. Although that fact's never really sat too well with me; a grown woman, a queen no less, sang as if she was a child.

      If it is Maria I'm hoping for an explanation regarding the apparent regression of her psyche (e.g. "Not knowing anything of the outside world is fine / If that's what you wish" isn't very "I am queen of this land now I'll lie to everyone to make mama and papa live again while being fully aware that this whole situation is effed up.") because it sure as heck doesn't seem as clean cut as a regular case of reincarnation amnesia (e.g. The Wonder Twins ) - I don't think magic dolls work quite the same as regular bodies in that regard; it took Eve a self-hypnosis before she could consider herself "reincarnating" in that thing. Plus there'd be the matter of how Maria would even reincarnate to begin with - since she's likely not a god-kin (she could be though, I'm not ruling it out). If she really did just trip and her soul fell into the doll I don't think we can know how just yet.

      So yeah I'd say Maria too as of right now, but I'm stull stuck on the how of things to be honest.

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    • In my opinion, Maria isn't as far off from the Master of the Court as you're making her sound. Maria was not a strong queen character in Magic Kingdom Levianta. She was a woman who was, as stated multiple times, being used as a puppet by the senate and by the gods. 

      In her song, she wasn't making a declaration "I am queen of this land," she was just expositing she's the queen who tells the future (but not really). Queen of the Glass's entire theme is how she's being manipulated by Levia and Behemo and, although she has misgivings, she's not going against it because she wants to see her "parents" again and relies on them to know what to do. That's the opposite of a strong and mature female character.

      Same deal with Master of the Court. She's being manipulated by Ma and, although she is aware that it might not be the right path, she won't go against it because she thinks it's what her "father" wants. I don't see any dramatic difference in tone between the songs. Miniature Garden Girl wouldn't be that much of a stretch either, although it wouldn't work without her losing her memories, it's true.

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    • Fair enough, however I really wasn't trying to say she was "strong and mature" (sorry if I came off like that) just not so childish and lacking in self-awareness as "Michelle" was. Although credit given: she was quite easily manipulated; you could argue that her naivety coupled with the whole parental fixation issue is a sign of a childish personality. It's as if Maria's just a more self-aware version of Court - which would actually fit in with the theory.

      Regarding tone differences I think the heavy-metal guitar and acoustic guitar difference is p significant tbh

      Either way there's still the giant issue with the reincarnation-amnesia-doll leap. I'd be interested in reading some theories regarding how that happened.

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    • I'm gonna cut in and say that "tone differences" probably refered to the tone of the lyrics and not the actual music, tho correct me if I'm wrong

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    • It did - I was joking.

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    • It's true 0o0 I think the main thing that would change her is memory, which could effectively erase any character development her life gave her.

      I am curious about that given the precedents. Maria has body swap and should be like Elluka, where she keeps her memories wherever she goes, so perhaps her memories were erased by an outside party > >/ like Ma, with the hypnosis thing, if she'd even still be able to do that. That would be a very weird way to continue the tradition of "the person in the doll is hypnotized into believing such and such". 

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    • In a series where magic reigns supreme that sorta thing is to be expected, sadly  (゚´Д`゚)゚. It'd certainly be a good way to explain her change in attitude but similarity in base goals.

      It's possible, especially since Ma is one third Eve, who we know for a fact was an...avid user of the hypnosis power. Even if Eve had escaped Ma at some point (which we know she eventually did, but I'm unaware if it was before or after the great retcon of all existence in EC 999 - I'm guessing after), odds are Ma would have retained some of her knowledge.

      And Ma would indeed have the time and perhaps even the means to do this, she had like 300 years of off-screen time, meandering around doing Sickle-knows-what with more power than should be given to any one person just sitting firmly inside of her.

      As usual: Ma's motivation could probably be summed up with the usual answers of "For the Evulz" or "We don't know - why does Ma even do anything", but a lack of clear motivation is pretty much the only fault I can think of...and that's just because it's Ma, who we know literally nothing about motivation-wise (#prayforamasong2k16).

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    • Ma might maintain knowledge of hypnosis but it's useless if she can't perform it. We'd have to establish she'd have the magical talent and ability to perform a technique so powerful that it only had one living user that we're aware of.

      Another potential option is both Maria, Michelle, and Master of the Court are one and the same, though you can debate the hows and whys endlessly since we know so little about all of them.

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    • Another potential option is that Maria, Margaret (Kyle's art tutor), Miku Miroku, Michelle, and MotC, are all the same person. They're all Mikus that aren't Eve or Michaela, so if Maria reincarnated over and over like Hansel and Gretel did this explanation gives a nice path to take Maria's soul all the way to the MotC.

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    • We would need a reason for why she's reincarnating like H&G then. That or Allen's knowledge pool about people regularly reincarnating on the ground world is severely limited.

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    • Considering that the result of Reincarnation could be considered similar to the result of the Swap Technique, and that Maria was one of the few people capable of such, it could be that her ability to use the technique coupled with her ability to hear Levia and Behemo (shared only by Kiril) allow her to reincarnate. She is the only known human with this combination of abilities.  I don't think it's particularly likely, but it is possible.

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    • I'm not sure hearing Levia and Behemo is an "ability" per say. The twins were specifically contacting those two people, both with the intent of manipulating them. I'm also not sure how hearing those two relates to reincarnation in any way. Having ability X and Y doesn't necessarily equal ability Z.

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    • I phrased it as such because of this exceprt from Kiril's page (there is a similar excerpt on Maria's page):

      "He was also one of the few humans capable of hearing the voices of Levia and Behemo from within the Sin ark, allowing him to communicate with the twin gods.[24]"

      This makes it seem, at least to me, as more of a capability than being merely targeted by the twin gods, but I could be wrong.  As for implying it's relation to reincarnation, this ability/targeting could represent a special connection to the twin gods (not as special as Hansel and Gretel, obviously, but one that is there nevertheless.)  

      Also, if she is reincarnating in a similar fashion to Hansel and Gretel, she could be a  "deteriorating copy" of herself in much the same way, which could account for her apparent memory loss in the absence of hypnosis.

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    • Yeah, the novel narrator phrases it as some sort of rare ability, hence why those select individual became the prophets for the twin gods' faith. If it is just selective telepathy of some sort though and nothing special about the individuals, it begs the question why Levia and Behemo weren't more hands on in manipulating the development of Project 'Ma'.

      I agree though, I don't see the connection between swap + god communication powers and reincarnation, since that's already been linked to having souls of or derived from gods and their kin. You could probably make that argument depending on how liberally you interpret the claim that the gods are her parents though. That said, just having the swap technique allows anyone to pull the Eve, minus the forget everything hypnosis part.

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    • I wasn't aware that Hansel and Gretel's reincarnation was specifically stated to have been a result of their fusion with the fragments of the twin gods.  I thought that it was one of those "heavily-implied-but-not-explicitly-stated" situations.  My apologies.

      That said, that does pretty much break that idea, though I still don't consider it completely impossible.  Perhaps she's not reincarnating, but has just been using the swap technique for the past 1000 years like everyone's favorite Sorceress of Time.  If that were the case, however, she would need an even stronger reason to seemingly not remember her past life.

      If that somehow is the case, it begs the question of what happened to the other characters capable of using the Swap Technique (for example, Meta, who was listed as being able to use it but never actually did so, similar to Maria.)

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    • Kiamaru wrote:

      I wasn't aware that Hansel and Gretel's reincarnation was specifically stated to have been a result of their fusion with the fragments of the twin gods.  I thought that it was one of those "heavily-implied-but-not-explicitly-stated" situations.  My apologies.

      It hasn't and my post at least isn't discrediting yours on that account. The swap technique and the ability to communicate with the twin gods are completely irrelevant to H&G. I don't see issue with trying to tie it in with connections to the gods themselves, but so far, all reincarnated humans have either been gods/kin themselves or derivatives of them, namely H&G and later A&R.

      If you want to credit that to their birth, there's the issue of the other set of twins born in Project Ma that apparently haven't been reincarnating, at least not to Allen or Behemo's knowledge, though that doesn't mean they haven't. If you prefer to argue it's because of the Levia-Behemo body fusing with theirs, then we'd need to understand why a body would allow reincarnation of the soul.

      As for Meta, we don't know if she used the swap technique or not at any point. The fact mothy lists her as having it makes for it to be a potential plot development at any time. The same could be done for Maria and we've already seen it done for Elluka, Adam, and Eve. It's been the get out of afterlife free card.

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    • The aforementioned precedent is why I suggested it as the (primary) cause of Maria's soul being present in the clockworker doll.  You are correct in stating that neither Swap or Communication are abilities possessed by the cursed twins, however, so I suppose there's not really a way to credit either of those to Maria's presumed situation.

      Personally, I like the idea that her soul never left Bolganio.  No afterlife, no reincarnation, just an entity that has been ever-present since Levianta's destruction, but not necessarily with a physical form, though I'll be the first to admit that it sounds impossible considering what we currently know.  Unless you say the magic word: MAGIC.  But I doubt that will end up being the case.

      Your comment about the fragments of the dragon body fusing with the twins made me question something though; obviously the only thing that can be proven from that event is that the bodies fused with the twins.  But could it be the case that parts of the god's souls did so as well?  Assuming that someone's soul (which is an entire discussion on it's own) suffuses their body, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that when the Levia-Behemo body fell apart, fragments of the god's souls were present in each part.  

      There are plenty of other theories that could be contrived from that, so I'm going to avoid trying to list them all, but I'll mention one that comes to mind; upon finally awakening, Behemo expresses that his desire for the destruction of the third period has disappeared, and though he attributes it to his 500 year slumber, it could have been passed off to the cursed twins via this event.  They do tend to be malicious (though this is usually attributed to their fanatical devotion to their mother figure - I would have liked to see what happened if Hansel and Gretel had been born under a benevolent mother once, like Anne Swee.)

      I apologize for getting off track.  Back to Maria - other than a modified use of the swap technique, I'm honestly not sure how she could be explained to be the MotC.

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    • I'll add that while it's mentioned that Maria and Meta are on the list of people who CAN use it, at the time it was more than likely a list to throw people off and doesn't mean they HAVE used it. It was build-up for Eve and maybe Adam (keep in mind the only evidence we might have for Adam using it is he's been in the Key and was blasted out of it in Pierrot, which doesn't explain Kyle or the entire blue-haired Marlons thing at all since we have it explicitly stated Adam was the acting demon until Pierrot--so he can't also be Kyle, unless Kyle will randomly occasionally go comatose while Adam does his demon thing somehow).

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    • 67.65.248.63 wrote:
      I'll add that while it's mentioned that Maria and Meta are on the list of people who CAN use it, at the time it was more than likely a list to throw people off and doesn't mean they HAVE used it. It was build-up for Eve and maybe Adam (keep in mind the only evidence we might have for Adam using it is he's been in the Key and was blasted out of it in Pierrot, which doesn't explain Kyle or the entire blue-haired Marlons thing at all since we have it explicitly stated Adam was the acting demon until Pierrot--so he can't also be Kyle, unless Kyle will randomly occasionally go comatose while Adam does his demon thing somehow).

      Yeah, that was weird to me; Kyle is called Soul of Adam by MotG in the last Story of Evil novel and I thought that was suggesting Adam reincarnating across time like Eve and the Twins, but with the info in Pierrot, it no longer makes sense, unless she was just mocking him for his resemblance to Adam and even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Though, the blue-haired Marlons could be explained by the theory that Maria's lost child was some ancestor to Karchess Crim....if that theory turns out to be true anyway.

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    • Concerning Maria's firstborn, I believe that he was actually Irregular, and that the Crim line was born from Adam's unnamed father (assuming he was born by normal means, which isn't stated so that's up for debate.)  I think that that's why Irregular appears in MotC's womb once Eve is no longer in the doll, and why Hansel explains that "someone else" is in there when Irregular attempts to grab the doll.  Maria is the only entity that can birth Irregular <--My personal belief.

      Concerning the "Soul of Adam"(SoA) references throughout the years, I think that it's more figurative than literal.  Also, the theory that the SoA are his reincarnations seems to imply that he only reincarnates in those who share his bloodline, which hasn't been (proven) to be the case with H&G, the paragons of reincarnation.  I'm not saying that he can't be reincarnating as such, just that I find it unlikely.

      Instead, I think that a SoA is someone who parallels the role that Adam played in the world during his lifetime.  The main person that comes to mind in this assumption is Kyle; he parallels Adam in that his actions resulted in an insanity in a woman that loved him, which in turn resulted in a great tragedy.  Adam/Eve resulted in the Original Sin, Kyle/Riliane resulted in Genocide.  Another possible example is Gallerian/Nemesis resulting in World Destruction, though this is a different kind of love (father/daughter as opposed to romantic love) and I don't think that Gallerian was ever actually referred to as the SoA.)  The parallel is still there, however, and Gear, the current SoA, does seem to have some sort of connection to Gallerian.

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    • Yeah, I don' t think it could be Irregular; it's been well-established by now that anyone who is represented by the Kagamines is associated with Levia and Behemo some way, and so if he were the son of Maria Moonlit, that would leave the question of why he resembles the others. As for Adam, in QoTG, Levia and Behemo tell Maria to create vessels for them "the same way she created [her] son Adam", which to me seems to imply Adam is a ghoul child or otherwise artifically created.....though, I suppose that doesn't rule out the possibility of him having a father.

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    • I forgot that Levia and Behemo mentioned Adam by name - you're absolutely right, that was an oversight on my part.  I also aggre that it does imply that he's a ghoul child.  I would be interested to see if Maria was the first person to take this "Divine Seed" and used it to birth Adam - her prophecy leaves a lot to the Imagination.

      Regarding your statement about Kagamines->Twin Gods, punishment is represented by a Kagamine, and he doesn't have any (known) connection to Levia and Behemo.  Personally, I don't actually consider him relevant to that point, because he is an artificial machine and there are a great number of him, but I think that a lot of other people might consider him relevant, since technically he's one of the four Lens associated with the Four Endings, so I figured I would point it out.

      Does your statement that they're all connected to Levia and Behemo include Allen and Riliane? Cuz their only connection was an interrupted destiny to be reincarnations of Hansel and Gretel.  They didn't actually partake in that destiny though, and their appearance is really the only thing left associating them with the Twin Gods.  If that appearance can be determined even before conception, then it's not a huge stretch to say that Irregular, who's purpose is completely unknown, COULD have an unknown connection to the gods, especially if you think (like I do) that he's the son of their prophet.  But I'll admit that my theory has it's flaws, like all of the things floating around in my head.

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    • QueenCeline wrote:
      Yeah, I don' t think it could be Irregular; it's been well-established by now that anyone who is represented by the Kagamines is associated with Levia and Behemo some way, and so if he were the son of Maria Moonlit, that would leave the question of why he resembles the others. As for Adam, in QoTG, Levia and Behemo tell Maria to create vessels for them "the same way she created [her] son Adam", which to me seems to imply Adam is a ghoul child or otherwise artifically created.....though, I suppose that doesn't rule out the possibility of him having a father.

      Except that the entire point to H&G were they were born from "god seed" and human eggs. They had a "father," although not a conventional one. They're from artifical insemination, which if anything, implies Adam is the same. They are not noted as ghoul children as of this point in time, so by extension, neither is Adam.

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    • 67.65.248.63 wrote:
      QueenCeline wrote:
      Yeah, I don' t think it could be Irregular; it's been well-established by now that anyone who is represented by the Kagamines is associated with Levia and Behemo some way, and so if he were the son of Maria Moonlit, that would leave the question of why he resembles the others. As for Adam, in QoTG, Levia and Behemo tell Maria to create vessels for them "the same way she created [her] son Adam", which to me seems to imply Adam is a ghoul child or otherwise artifically created.....though, I suppose that doesn't rule out the possibility of him having a father.
      Except that the entire point to H&G were they were born from "god seed" and human eggs. They had a "father," although not a conventional one. They're from artifical insemination, which if anything, implies Adam is the same. They are not noted as ghoul children as of this point in time, so by extension, neither is Adam.

      Hansel and Gretal are considered Ghoul Children, though; the wiki came to that conclusion a while ago.

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    • Friendly reminder this topic is about the Clockworker's Doll post-Merrigod Duel and the identity of MotC. Just keep that in mind as you delve deeper into this.

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    • Apologies, it's easy to get sidetracked.  

      My theory is Maria.  She has the Swap Technique to at least somewhat account for her soul's apparent movement and obviously already shares parallels with MotC.  If it's guessed that she's reincarnating instead of soul swapping, then the aformentioned dilemma of how and why she's reincarnating comes up, and there's not really a definite answer to that right now.

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    • I think it's Maria, too. It's just a matter of filling in the blanks of how she got there and where her spirit was in the meantime

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    • Yeah, there haven't been any other characters depicted to share her personality/disposition before MotC, so it's hard to get a concept of where she could have been.  I'd like to think that she has a direct link to Michelle Marlon (assuming she reciprocated her father's obsessive/devoted love to her) and that's why she ended up finding the Clockworker Doll and inhabiting it while Gallerian owned it.

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