FANDOM


  • Octofan
    Octofan closed this thread because:
    Too long, moving topics to a new one.
    15:42, March 21, 2017

    This is basically a thread for discussing retranslating names in the series, considering how recent events have been playing out regarding things such as Freezis and Karchess and whatnot. There have been a lot of things that close inspection would reveal are meant to be written differently but no one’s gotten around to it, either because newer information is more important or because they’ve been around for a while and no one thinks to question it.

    Note that this is not intended to be a place to quibble over whether you think something sounds better. This is for when you have an actual reason to believe that a title or name has been mistranslated in the past and wish to have it possibly corrected. I just thought it would be a good place to discuss anything that might come up while going through the wiki rather than taking up other thread spaces discussing it.

    I would also like to clarify that you shouldn’t bring up names that have already been discussed or have solid sources. For example, a lot of the names in the Story of Evil had their spellings clarified by fanbooks and tweets, so there’s no need to retranslate them, even if they sound awkward. Same goes for things like “Gift from the Princess Who Brought Sleep” and “Evil Food Eater Conchita”—yes, they are not quite accurate translations, but they’ve been solidified by mothy and agreed upon in wiki discussion.

    This is also really more for cleaning up past mistakes as I’m sure new terms and titles will be discussed in the threads and forums dedicated to the works they’re for.


    The general criteria I would recommend is listing the original Japanese, how it’s currently translated, and how you think it should be translated (and why).

      Loading editor
    • To get the ball rolling:

      • 樹の乙女~千年のヴィーゲンリート~: Currently, “Wooden Girl ~Thousand Year Wiegenlied~”, I propose changing it to “The Maiden of the Tree ~Millennium Wiegenlied~”, as “Wooden Girl” makes much less sense in context and while it’s certainly not unheard of to use の to make nouns (the noun being 樹, meaning “wood” or “tree”) into adjectives it’s very likely not what’s going on here. I propose changing “Thousand Year” to “Millennium” because she becomes the Millennium tree.

      • 置き去り月夜抄: Currently “Abandonment on a Moonlit Night”, I propose changing it to “A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night”, as the final kanji in the title basically means an excerpt, and remains unaccounted for in the title we have.


      • 待ち続けた手紙: Currently “Kept Waiting for a Response”, I propose the title “The Letter She Kept Waiting For” because “Kept Waiting for a Response” has very little resemblance, if any, to the title’s actual meaning. 手紙 means “letter”, 待ち続けた means to have continued waiting for something, placed as such that it’s used as a descriptor of the letter.


      • 箱庭の少女: Currently “Miniature Garden Girl”, I propose “Girl of the Miniature Garden”. While the title we have is not incorrect, it carries too much ambiguity in the meaning. It’s very clear by the Japanese that the garden is what’s miniature, not the girl. The title we have can, to some people, suggest it’s calling the girl miniature. Even if she is miniature, that’s not what the Japanese is saying.


      Note that this thread covers more than just song names but that’s all I have at the moment.

        Loading editor
    • Vote one for Wiegenlied getting retranslated. The old title always sounded clunky to me. Plus the one you preposed is a lot more poetic.

      Though, alternately, could it be "Tree Maiden"?

        Loading editor
    • "Tree Maiden" would make the title shorter (and make room for more space), so I can see why you're going for that, Malice. As for "Millennium Wiegenlied", may I propose changing "Millennium" to "Millennial"? (It sounds more grammatically correct, if you're asking me.) ^^;

        Loading editor
    • I'm alright with Tree Maiden. Millenial I am less certain of, partially because it tends to be used more in the context of 1000 year anniversaries than just denoting the span of time, and because it's slang for the generation born in the 2000s. But it does sound more grammatically correct, and if other people are fine with it I wouldn't strongly oppose that.

        Loading editor
    • Renaming thread title for clarity. This will be a good thread to keep these topics segregated from our various other discussion threads.


      "Tree Maiden ~Millenium Wiegenlied~" would have my support. I can't find much for "milennial". The term is being used as a noun-adjective, which often gets translated as "Millennium", see "Millennium Actress". Considering the close association being made with Held as the Millennium Tree that's been around for a thousand years, I'd stick with that consistenty.

      I'd say "Moonlit Abandonment Tale" or something similar could work too. Moonlit already implies nighttime. However, I think we should be discussing the best translation in relation to Girl Went Mad, as its subtext (-終末月夜抄-) is making a direct reference to Abandoned's title.

      The Letter She Kept Waiting For is appropriate given the context.

      I disagree with there being too much ambiguity with MGG. I say that, of course, having already known what a miniature garden was. Our article already includes the trivia behind the name as well so I'm not sure how necessary this change would really be.

        Loading editor
    • "Moonlit Abandonment Tale" match will match "Moonlit Bear" more too do we need the Tale part?

        Loading editor
    • Um...it's kinda part of the name, Alexiel.

        Loading editor
    • that is what I was asking, lol

        Loading editor
    • I would like to propose a term that may need retranslation: Asmodean for Asmodin (for the reason of sounding the nation more Arab, as the current name sounds more of a person living in "Asmodea" and sounded a bit Roman (though, it can be kept for reference of it being once part of Beelzenia)).

        Loading editor
    • My only concern with renaming Asmodean to Asmodin would be pronunciation confusion (although if one does indeed sound more Arab than the other that's no reason not to change), as the latter makes it look like "As moh dihn" rather than "As moh deen" which is how it's intended to be pronounced.

      As for "And The Girl Went Mad" we could change the subtitle to, in my opinion, either "Ending Moonlit Tale", "End of the Moonlit Tales", or "Ending to a Moonlit Tale". Without particles I'm not entirely sure which would be more accurate. --If we're going to cut the Night out of the titles entirely, that is.

        Loading editor
    • Alternatively, could Asmodeen count? What made me think of this now is the saying of mujahideen (an ARAB word; "muu ja hi deen"), which contains the "deen", and not the mistaken "dihn" for Asmodin. Thus, if it's "As moh deen", Asmodeen could work!

        Loading editor
    • In terms of "din", it's possible. Among the numerous translations, Asmodean's "din" portion is also used in some spellings for names like "Saladin".

        Loading editor
    • Another minor proposed change could be from Bariti to Barity; to me, this sounded more European (in this case, Marlonian/British) than the original Asian term. Yet another could be from Netsuma to Nezma (I don't know why, but I like to imagine them as the Evillian equivalent to the Roma people, since they came from an area outside Europe/Evillious (in this case, "Raisa Netsuma, the White Demon of Jakoku") and/or had a history of persecution (the albinism, later mixed with Venomanian blood)).

        Loading editor
    • I...don't think we should make racial connections that aren't canonically there, nor make a name change based on things unconfirmed. Besides, how many Japanese people have actually heard of the Roma?

      FYI, if Raisa's title is supposed to indicate anything, then Netsuma is likely the correct translation.

        Loading editor
    • Just a reminder, we're all supposed to be providing the original Japanese to go off of for these proposals--it's about reflecting the culture that it's intended to be a part of, yes, but it's also supposed to be about how something can be more accurately translated in terms of how loanwords and the language works.

      For example, I'm all for changing Netsuma to something less Japanese, but does Nezma accurately reflect how it's written? Furthermore, is there enough reason to think that they're the Evillious equivalent to the Roma people, rather than just making the change for arbitrary personal aesthetic?

      Please keep these things in mind, not to squash your enthusiasm. But if we're going to be making changes that may at times involve a bit of effort switching over the spellings, there should be a more solid case behind them.

        Loading editor
    • ^

        Loading editor
    • I'm going to add that according to Elluka's perspective in Wiegenlied, the Netsumas on the whole are indigenous to Elphegort. Inb4 "Elluka could be wrong," either she is speaking as Elluka Chirclatia, who was around when Raisa was, or she's speaking as Levia, who was one of the gods who created the Netsumas to begin with. Raisa's title could just mean she has a Jakoku aesthetic or is from Jakoku on a personal level. 

      Netsumas can be any number of discriminated ethnicities, until mothy actually gives an indication which one he has in mind, if any, it would be misleading to translate it based on one we personally prefer.  

        Loading editor
    • I would also like to vote in favor the retranslations suggested initially in the thread, so we can get these changed to more accurate versions. (Going to go with A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" because "Moonlit Abandonment Tale" sounds like someone trying to cut corners. On the other hand, I do like "End of the Moonlit Night Tale")

        Loading editor
    • I'm all for ""Tree Maiden ~Millenium Wiegenlied~", since the translation we currently have has always felt awkward. I also like "Asmodin". On the fence regarding the others, though.

        Loading editor
    • I can understand being hesitant about most of them but why on the fence about "The Letter She Kept Waiting For"? Out of all of them that title is the one most in need of intervention. Did you have something else in mind for the wording?

        Loading editor
    • Personally I think it either shouldn't be changed ("Kept Waiting For a Response" sounds fine to me) or it should be chnaged to "The Letter She Kept Waiting For."

      I'm for "Maiden of the Tree ~Millenium Wiegenlied~" but not "Tree Maiden"; "Tree Maiden" sounds less lyrical and professional. Besides, she wasn't always a tree.

      I don't think "Asmodean" should change, but that's probably because that's how I pronounce it in my head, and the other spellings seem weird to me. If anything, though, I think it should be changed to "Asmodin."

        Loading editor
    • The problem with "Kept Waiting for Response" isn't whether it sounds nice, it's that it isn't what the title translates to. I wouldn't bring it up if it was just a matter of aesthetic--it is a completely wrong reading of the Japanese. I present it as though it's an option for people to take--keep it the same or change it--but in my mind there's really no option because the first title is just flat out not correct.

        Loading editor
    • "The Letter She Kept Waiting For" sounds good to me. I also like "Tree Maiden ~Millenium Wiegenlied~" To me though all the suggested titles to And the Girl Went Mad sound cluttered or awkward to me. So I'm really not going to say anything about it. "Asmodin" is fine as well imo. And let's see whatonedidImiss- Oh, and I agree with Servy on "Miniature Garden Girl" remaining so. 

        Loading editor
    • I understand that, but shouldn't something sound good as well as be accurate? Otherwise, I agree with Dark, really.

        Loading editor
    • So, looks like there's two names which are almost entirely agreed on. What does everyone think?

      Frankly, I think the songs are the bigger contention here. Things like "Asmodean" really feel like a change to make on the whim.

        Loading editor
    • Kept Waiting for a Response is not accurate, so it shouldn't even be considered as an option, is the point. 

        Loading editor
    • Yeah. If we went by inaccurate translations, we'd be saying Levia told Kiril to rape Elluka's corpse and that Milky was Pale's ex-wife X_X

        Loading editor
    • Sounding good is second to being accurate, always. Kept Waiting for a Response might sound nice and in the grand scheme of things it might not be the most misinforming thing ever (it is only a title after all), but it completely misses the meaning and misses the point of the song that it's referring to--it's not about her waiting. It's about the letter. The climax of the song is her recieving said letter. The title is an important part of its significance and must be translated properly.

        Loading editor
    • "The Letter She Kept Waiting For" is fine by me. For the new Abandoned translation, I like "Tale of Moonlit Abandonment" the best. I think we should translate the subtitle of Girl Went Mad as "Moonlit Tale's End".

      I feel that omitting the word "night" is acceptable since, as Servy said, "moonlit" already implies nighttime. Plus, we've already done the same thing before, such as the title of Weathered Head and Margarita's codename, Sleep Princess.

      I'd also like to point out that up until now I've been reading "Asmodean" as "az-moe-dee-an" instead of its proper pronunciation. Because of this, I feel it's important to change our translation to "Asmodin" in order to prevent the name from being mispronounced.

        Loading editor
    • I prefer Asmodean or Asmodeen to Asmodin because Asmodin isn pronounced "Az-moh-dihn" in my head.

        Loading editor
    • I'm giving a pass for Tree Maiden ~Millennium Wiegenlied~ and The Letter She Kept Waiting For translation changes.

      There still seems to be a big mix on some of the others so let's keep the discussion rolling on Asmodean and the like.

        Loading editor
    • I would also suggest retranslating the name バエム(baemu), as in, the Baemu pig, to Vallem (pronounced "vie-ehm"). I was checking it out on Jisho and apparently "bae", the first part is a commonly accepted Japanese spelling of "valle" (pronounced "vie-eh"), which is a Spanish and Italian term for "valley". Considering the Beelzenian Empire (Conchita's portion of it anyway) has Italian cultural leanings I thought that might be significant (gratuitious Spanish or Italian to spice up the work like how he randomly uses German words in Elphegort things).

        Loading editor
    • I also have a question on how 蛇ヶ原 (from "The Battle of Jakehara) was translated as "Jakehara". From what I'm seeing it's more closely "Jagahara". I would wager a guess that whoever arrived at the name took the "Ja" of the first kanji and the "hara" of the last one, and assumed that the figure in the middle was "ke". Which, while it looks like it, it's not. It is smaller and serves a different purpose, meant to be read as "ka" or "ga". So thus I would propose we switch to Jagahara instead of Jakehara.

        Loading editor
    • Servant of Evillious wrote:
      I'm giving a pass for Tree Maiden ~Millennium Wiegenlied~ and The Letter She Kept Waiting For translation changes.

      There still seems to be a big mix on some of the others so let's keep the discussion rolling on Asmodean and the like.

      In regards to this: Would we also be changing the name of the Freezis fairy tale "Wooden Girl" to "Tree Maiden" or are we keeping that the same?

      Also I'm willing to back "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night". It fits better given the context of the Moonlit family being present.

      ---

      EDIT: Come to think of it, isn't "Moonlit Night" somewhat redundant? The word Moonlit itself is already implying that it's night, and it serves as a double meaning on it's own. "A Tale of Moonlit Abandonment", I'd prefer, but as I know less of Japanese than most here I'll leave this as a footnote opinion more than a suggestion.

        Loading editor
    • All instances, including the Freezis Fairy Tale should be changed. There's no difference in the title spelling there.

        Loading editor
    • ForTheLoveOfHellish wrote:

      Servant of Evillious wrote:
      I'm giving a pass for Tree Maiden ~Millennium Wiegenlied~ and The Letter She Kept Waiting For translation changes.

      There still seems to be a big mix on some of the others so let's keep the discussion rolling on Asmodean and the like.

      In regards to this: Would we also be changing the name of the Freezis fairy tale "Wooden Girl" to "Tree Maiden" or are we keeping that the same?

      Also I'm willing to back "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night". It fits better given the context of the Moonlit family being present.

      I like "Moonlit Abandonment" more, it matches "Moonlit Bear"

        Loading editor
    • I'm gonna let the record show that I don't approve of us just cutting down on words whenever we possibly can just to conserve space, because it's not always aesthetically pleasing. That said, I am alright with A Tale of Moonlit Abandonment; as Alexiel pointed out, it's a bit of a reference to Moonlit Bear, with the Abandonment being what is lit up by the moon. I'm fine with A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night too though. It's not completely redundant, Moonlit serves the purpose of describing the night. Technically, the moon can be out during the day. 

      The Jagahara change I'm all for just because what we have now is the equivalent of a typo. I also agree with changing Baemu to Vallem, given the reason that it's mothy using gratuitous Italian. Users will likely be a bit confused on the pronounciation, but I'm sure most people unaware of German are mispronouncing "Stollen" and "Wiegenlied" as well.

        Loading editor
    • Agree myself on Jakahara and Vallem.

        Loading editor
    • Lol, I'm Spanish and I never noticed the "Vallem" thing, probably because there is no "ll" sound in bae.

        Loading editor
    • Japanese isn't the best at approximating sounds in Western languages, true. Part of what makes interpreting it difficult.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with the "Jagahara" and "Vallem" translations. Glad someone finally figured out the latter.

        Loading editor
    • Octofan wrote:
      Technically, the moon can be out during the day. 

      If we're going to be speaking of technicalities, then it wouldn't be "moonlight" during the day, as things would be illuminated by the actual light of the sun, not the moon which is only reflecting sunlight to illuminate things at night.

      On a separate note, I don't approve of us keeping things unnecessarily written out for arbitrary clarity, hence my saying "Moonlit Abandonment Tale" or "something similar" could work; Tale of Moonlit Abandonment is clear and concise imo while remaining true to the original meaning. We should still discuss this in conjunction with a translating for Girl Went Mad's addition.

      I disagree with the baemu suggestion to vallem. Besides "valley" having no apparent connection to the actual pig, there's nothing to hint there's any specific language, gratuitous or not, is being employed imo. Unless there's more clarity on the origin of the name (if any), I don't think we should be so liberal with the term.

      Jagahara sounds good to me.

        Loading editor
    • Due to the simple and straightforward spelling error concerning it, I'll give a pass on the retranslation of Jakehara as Jagahara despite the lack of commentary on that one.

      I'm also going to drop Ein and his identically-named bretheren's name for discussion. Doing another check, I did finally come up with some results.

      While the name アイン (Ain) is used for her wikipedia page, Ayn Rand's name is listed as エイン (Ein) in other website sources like kotobank. The name "Ayn Rand" used by a character from the Black Bullet series also shares the real-life persona's identical spelling of エイン.

      Thoughts?

        Loading editor
    • Seems we have no choice but to change it.

      The actual name is not intended to be pronounced like the German "ein" and keeping it spelled that way is just giving people the impression that it is--I've seen a couple people making "his name is literally 'an anchor'" jokes that are technically incorrect, and now we have a precedent as proof of how it's supposed to be spelled.

        Loading editor
    • Vote one for Ayn as well.

      Also, Servy, I never knew you were a Black Bullet fan.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not but that's irrelevant to the topic.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with Ayn as well.

        Loading editor
    • Octofan wrote:
      Seems we have no choice but to change it.

      The actual name is not intended to be pronounced like the German "ein" and keeping it spelled that way is just giving people the impression that it is--I've seen a couple people making "his name is literally 'an anchor'" jokes that are technically incorrect, and now we have a precedent as proof of how it's supposed to be spelled.


      I don't know about "no choice", though I understand the issue as I've seen people mistaking it for the Germain "ein" too.

      I'm mostly neutral on this but the afformentioned issue with the romanization does have mean lean toward changing it to Ayn.

        Loading editor
    • I'd probably translate it as Eyn if it's "ein" and not "ain."

      P.S.: I am not going to bring up the name I want a new romanization for.

        Loading editor
    • Ayn sounds good to me.

        Loading editor
    • I'm giving a pass on Ayn then.

        Loading editor
    • I have a question. Is there a source for Clarith over Clarise?

        Loading editor
    • The fanbook and later mothy on one his blog's Q&As.

        Loading editor
    • Thanks. It's been bugging me for awhile since I know クラリス is how you spell Clarice/Clarise, and I was unsure if there was a source or if it was like some of the older translations and thus poor.

        Loading editor
    • Sorry for the rollback, but I don't believe we've come to a consensus on Abandoned on a Moonlit Night/And then the girl went mad, or Baemu.

      There's been a few suggestions for the Abandoned translation, so I'll list them here in order that they were suggested:

      1. A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night
      2. Moonlit Abandonment Tale
      3. Tale of Moonlit Abandonment

      I'm in favour of the final, the first two strike me as unnecessarily drawn out and unnecessarily short respectively.

      Regarding the "And then the Girl went Mad - End of a Moonlit Night -" wouldn't the simplest change be to alter the final word? Regardless of the Abandoned change, all three refer to it being a "tale". So I'd reccomend changing "End of a Moonlit Night" to "End of the/a Moonlit Tale" (If it's decided to change the title to A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night then it would be End of "A" Moonlit Tale. The other two make it sound as if it's the one and only "The" Moonlit Tale.)

      As for Baemu to Vallem, for now I'm going to disagree with the change, just because the reasoning is slightly flimsy to me. However, if, in future, we get more information on the animal then I believe this should be brought up again.

        Loading editor
    • ForTheLoveOfHellish wrote:

      Regarding the "And then the Girl went Mad - End of a Moonlit Night -" wouldn't the simplest change be to alter the final word? Regardless of the Abandoned change, all three refer to it being a "tale". So I'd reccomend changing "End of a Moonlit Night" to "End of the/a Moonlit Tale" (If it's decided to change the title to A Tale of Moonlit Abandonment then it would be End of "A" Moonlit Tale. The other two make it sound as if it's the one and only "The" Moonlit Tale.)

      I'd prefer if we kept the phrasing consistent with the Japanese structure but it's not the biggest deal in the world. If we go with "Tale of Moonlit Abandonment", I'd be fine with "End of a Moonlit Tale".

        Loading editor
    • i still think it should be "Moonlit Abandonment", i mean is does follow "Moonlit Bear" so it should follow the same naming scheme.

        Loading editor
    • I think Tale of Moonlit Abandonment is the best translation since Moonlit Abandoment is too short.

        Loading editor
    • length doesn't matter, "Tale of Moonlit Abandonment" doesn't match "Moonlit Bear" an the Japanese title doesn't have an "of" in it

        Loading editor
    • Servant of Evillious wrote:
      ForTheLoveOfHellish wrote:

      Regarding the "And then the Girl went Mad - End of a Moonlit Night -" wouldn't the simplest change be to alter the final word? Regardless of the Abandoned change, all three refer to it being a "tale". So I'd reccomend changing "End of a Moonlit Night" to "End of the/a Moonlit Tale" (If it's decided to change the title to A Tale of Moonlit Abandonment then it would be End of "A" Moonlit Tale. The other two make it sound as if it's the one and only "The" Moonlit Tale.)

      I'd prefer if we kept the phrasing consistent with the Japanese structure but it's not the biggest deal in the world. If we go with "Tale of Moonlit Abandonment", I'd be fine with "End of a Moonlit Tale".

      Ahhhh, sorry I made a small mistake, I meant if it was changed to "A tale of abandonment of a moonlit night" then make it "End of A Moonlit Tale". I fixed it now, sorry!

        Loading editor
    • Alexiel Lucifen wrote:
      length doesn't matter, "Tale of Moonlit Abandonment" doesn't match "Moonlit Bear" an the Japanese title doesn't have an "of" in it

      You're assuming the intention was for both song titles to emulate each other. Problems with this idea your suggesting as follows:

      1) There's no Japanese for Moonlit Bear's title to compare to. How mothy would intend to structure either title isn't clear to us. Working purely off the Japanese, the title is literally structured as "[abandoned][moonlit night][tale]" so there's nothing emulating the actual structure of "Moonlit Bear", just the use of the term "moonlit".

      2) Following this literal translating thread, you are saying we shouldn't insert an "of" to an English title because no Japanese equivalent (I assume you mean の) is included there. By the very implication of the term "translating" we're changing Japanese into an English meaning, not words. Over literal translations often don't convey the meaning accurately or naturally (ex: Above point would therefore be "Abandoned Moonlit Tale").

      3) You purport the songs following each other equates to having the same title scheme in a previous post. If this was the case, why didn't mothy provide an English title for Abandoned like with Moonlit Bear? Even Heartbeat Clocktower and Handbeat Clocktower have had both English and Japanese equivalents of their titles to make the intended references clear in both languages.

      With all the above in mind, I cannot support the idea the song title is intended to mimick Moonlit Bear. Moonlit Abandonment Tale, Tale of Moonlit Abandonment, or something similar is where I think we have the best balance of meaning and readability.

        Loading editor
    • Japanese structure is not as straightforward as の always meaning "of" and its lack of use meaning there are no "of"s in the title. If you wanted to be completely, 100% literal about translating it, the title should be "Moonlit Night Abandonment Anecdote". This is not a natural sounding title. There are no particles necessary to denote the "of" in "A Tale of Moonlit Abandoment"--the placement of the kanji shows that the anecdote/tale in question is one of abandonment on a moonlit night. That is exactly what "A Tale of Moonlit Abandonment" denotes.

      And if the titles of "moonlit bear" and "置き去り月夜少" were meant to match exactly mothy wouldn't have written the former in English.

      As for "And Then the Girl Went Mad" I would change it to "[The] Ending Moonlit Tale". The way the title is constructed suggests to me not that it is the end of the tale but that it is the final tale--the ending tale, as it were. (As in, there's multiple moonlit tales and this is the last one rather than there's only one moonlit tale that these are all a part of).

        Loading editor
    • --Didn't see Servant's reply but yeah that basically covers it

        Loading editor
    • i didn't know Moonlit Bear didn't have a Japanese title to compare too, either way, we know the both songs are some what paired off, like the Sins songs and the other halfs

        Loading editor
    • Yes but your reasoning isn't strong enough to argue that we should force Abandonment to have a similar title to Moonlit Bear.

      In fact, your comparison doesn't even work. The pairing of the Sins songs and their answer songs AREN'T indications that the titles are similar--The Sloth song and the Pierrot song are 眠らせ姫からの贈り物 and 五番目のピエロ. The Envy song and Onigashima is 円尾坂の仕立屋 and 野ざらしの首、鬼ヶ島にて, and the Gluttony song and DOG are 悪食娘コンチータ and "Drug of Gold".

      If you didn't even bother to look for what "Moonlit Bear" was derived from (since you didn't know it was written in English to begin with), then what authority can you possibly claim in saying that the titles should be forced to be similar?

        Loading editor
    • The whole point of this thread is about arriving at more accurate translations. Changing the meaning to something too literal and cutting out parts of the title to make the song associations more obvious between two titles that, even in the original Japanese, were not supposed to look alike, is exactly what we're NOT supposed to be doing.

        Loading editor
    • umm...when did i ever force stuff? last time i knew this was a vote, i gave in my vote and the reason why i voted this way, end of story.

        Loading editor
    • I didn't mean force as in you were forcing the title on us, I meant force as in cutting out words in the title to make it fit. Like how someone might force a square peg into a round hole by cutting off corners.

        Loading editor
    • that is what we are all doing, hence way we are not using the full "Moonlit Night Abandonment Anecdote"

        Loading editor
    • We removed the "night" part because it was deemed superfluous to the meaning, as "moonlit" already suggests it is at night. The other alterations were about making it flow better in English. "Moonlit Abandonment", as a title, cuts off too much of the meaning to be viable, and for unnecessary reasons. That is all I am saying.

        Loading editor
    • then why are we adding "Tale of"? that is also unneeded, aren't all the songs tales?

        Loading editor
    • We're adding "Tale of" because the title literally has the kanji meaning Tale/Anecdote in it. Please review earlier discussions of that in this thread if you're unfamiliar with the concepts being discussed.

      If you're going to argue that "night" is just as necessary in the title even though we believe it unnecessary, then that's an argument to put it back in, not for taking "tale of" out.

        Loading editor
    • Your example is about omitting a term used in one Japanese song title that's not included in the Japanese title of other songs. The other is about two ways of conveying the same meaning of a single term. Your example is flawed and reasoning irrelevant imo.

        Loading editor
    • 23.122.217.39 wrote: We're adding "Tale of" because the title literally has the kanji meaning Tale/Anecdote in it. Please review earlier discussions of that in this thread if you're unfamiliar with the concepts being discussed.

      If you're going to argue that "night" is just as necessary in the title even though we believe it unnecessary, then that's an argument to put it back in, not for taking "tale of" out.

      you are putting words in my mouth, i never said to add "night" back in i am saying that they might be both useless parts of the title. you can't pick and choose stuff when it comes to useless words.

        Loading editor
    • During the discussion another way to interpret the title did occur to me however, in particular with synching the meaning up with the "And Then the Girl Went Mad" subtitle.

      Both titles are written as follows:

      置き去り月夜抄

      ___終末月夜抄

      In both cases, the "[moonlit night][tale] part goes in the end. Unlike Moonlit Bear, these are very clear cases of the titles intending to mirror each other. So, rather than saying "A Tale of Moonlit Abandonment", we say "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale". This makes it more similar to "The End[ing] Moonlit Tale" (whichever we decide on for that).

      It just seems to me that the way they're structured, they are both intended to be viewed as "Moonlit [Night] Tale"s. It feels like the words in front are meant be viewed as qualifiers for which of these Moonlit Tales they are. I know it's very different from how we've been viewing them so far but it feels to me like this may be what is intended.

        Loading editor
    • And I never said that was your argument. I said that if "tale" and "night" were both on the same level of necessity, as you were trying to argue, then I would change my position to put "night" back in rather than defend that to the point of taking "tale" out.

      Although, as stated many times now, there are reasons why we view "tale" to be necessary and not "night".

        Loading editor
    • the story relates to Moonlit Bear more then it relates to And Then the Girl Went Mad, i mean we know all three are connected, it is just the last one has a looser connection. This translation onlt makes sense(to me) if we rename "Moonlit Bear" as "The Moonlit Bear Tale" and i don't see that happening either.

        Loading editor
    • You are not listening to the arguments we are making, Alexiel. I am referring to the content of the actual titles. "Moonlit Bear" was written in English by mothy as "moonlit bear". It is not a translation, it is the actual title as coined by mothy. As such there would be no point whatsoever in adding anything to it. I am not saying the songs are more or less connected, I am saying that mothy was drawing clear parallels in the actual title. I would refer you to the titles so you can see why but as I posted that in my actual comment I'm not sure what the point would be.

        Loading editor
    • The connection between And then the Girl Went Mad and the Abandonment song is not loose in my opinion.

      Hansel and Gretel's voices make an actual appearance and talk about "abandonment", the moon shows up (referred to as Otsuki-sama like in Abandonment,) the singer goes crazy after being left behind by her mother and doubts her mother's good intentions (like the twins being abandoned by their parents and believing them a witch and henchman), etc. 

      Thematically the two songs are much more closely related than Moonlit Bear, which features only the moon and none of the other themes, as well as none of the other singers. (inb4 "Meta abandoned the twins") I think the thematic connections between the latter two songs more than justify the parallels in the titles, more so than trying to parallel to Moonlit Bear (at cost of making the translation less accurate) just because Abandoned is a sequel to it. 

      For all we know Moonlit Bear will get a Japanese title that's "The Bear Moonlit Tale" with the release of OSS CE, but that's not really important or necessary to discussing translations.

        Loading editor
    • In case it's not clear, I agree with The Abandonment Moonlit Tale and The Ending Moonlit Tale

        Loading editor
    • i don't mind "Tale" as much as "Abandonment Moonlit over "Moonlit Abandonment" either way, my vote is still "Moonlit Abandonment"/"Moonlit Abandonment Tale"

        Loading editor
    • Just to clarify, it's not "Abandonment Moonlit". Moonlit Tale is one term. So it's "Abandonment" as the qualifier of the term "Moonlit Tale". "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale".

      The "The" is actuall pretty important in my suggestion as it makes this more clear to the reader, grammatically.

        Loading editor
    • no, Moonlit is an adjective, is it describing the abandonment and the tale

        Loading editor
    • If "moonlit" was meant to be an adjective applying to "abandonment" it would be placed before it in the sentence. Speaking as someone who has studied Japanese for years, this is my opinion on it. The "moonlit" part is the adjective of "tale", but not abandonment. Similar to how "And Then The Girl Went Mad" subtitle is not intended to be translated as "The Moonlit Ending Tale".

        Loading editor
    • that same logic would make abandonment an adjective to and it is not, you can't use abandonment to describe moonlit(btw, you should make an account and join the chat, i think you will have fun)

        Loading editor
    • That is precisely what I'm saying though. Abandonment is being used as a qualifier similar to an adjective.

      Again, I will break down my reasoning so there is no ambiguity on your part.

      Between these two titles, one part is consistent, and that is the ending, 月夜抄. This means, literally, "Moonlit Night Tale". This suggests to me that this is its own term. Cutting out "Night" for reasons that have already been discussed in length and thus I won't go into, the term would be "Moonlit Tale".

      Moonlit, as an adjective, is saying to us that "These are tales that take place under the moon".

      Why mothy chose to not write Moonlit Bear the same way I dont' know--perhaps the reasons that Octo was discussing. The point is that, going off the title, these are clear mirrors of each other.

      When I say "Abandonment"is a qualifier, I'm not saying it's a qualifier of the adjective "Moonlit". It is a qualifier of the FULL TERM "Moonlit Tale".

      It is saying "This is the Moonlit Tale that pertains to Abandonment." Just as the subtitle of "And Then the Girl Went Mad" would mean "This is the Moonlit Tale that Ends this series".

      To make it flow easier, we would write it as "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale" and "The Ending Moonlit Tale". These are grammatically correct in English and convey what I am suggesting unless one is focused on Moonlit as a generally floating adjective that can be put anywhere in the title (which it's not) instead of one half of the term "Moonlit Tale".

        Loading editor
    • To add to what I'm saying, even if we're not translating the way I have chosen to, Moonlit is being used as a qualifier of "Night". It is still not an adjective that can apply to the word abandonment as 月夜 is a noun which means "Moonlit Night". The farthest we can change it from that is making it an adjective of "Tale" as "Moonlit Night" all together is a qualifier of "Tale".

        Loading editor
    • yes, but in English "Moonlit Night" is not just a noun, it is an adjective(moonlit) a noun(night), the is way before we were using "Abandon(ment) on a Moonlit Night"

        Loading editor
    • That doesn't matter. I'm talking about the meaning of the term, not how it can be rearranged in English. The meaning of "Moonlit [Night] Tale" is as a single term. That means that it is not intended to be used as an adjective for anything else in the title, even if it could in English. If any proposed title goes against the intended meaning then we should not use it. I am arguing that what I have arrived at is the intended meaning.

      I have already explained why what I am saying is grammatically correct in English. It is an accepted part of English to make full terms using adjectives, such as, for example, "The Red Demon". If I wrote, "The Crying Red Demon", no one would assume that it could mean "The Crying Red" or "The Red Crying". They would assume that "Crying" is the descriptor of "Red Demon".

        Loading editor
    • So now that everyone has explained their thought processes, let's try to speed up to the voting process. The current translation suggestions for this title are:

      1. A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night
      2. Moonlit Abandonment Tale
      3. Tale of Moonlit Abandonment
      4. The Abandonment Moonlit Tale (in conjunction with -The Ending Moonlit Tale-/The End Moonlit Tale-)

      My vote is for 4, clears up two translations and the above anon's reasoning makes it quite clear.

        Loading editor
    • i vote for 2 still, it just makes more senses to me(tbh, my brain still says 4 is bad grammar. idk why.)

        Loading editor
    • I vote for The Abandonment Moonlit Tale

        Loading editor
    • I vote for the third. I somewhat agree with Alexiel, the fourth sounds a tad odd, although I understand "Moonlit Tale" should be taken as a singlular part of the title, it just rings as odd without any punctuation to show "Moonlit Tale" as a whole rather than two separate words, it may become confusing to those who haven't read this thread.

        Loading editor
    • i am going to make a poll so this doesn't get more confusing

      The current translation suggestions for this title
       
      2
       
      1
       
      7
       
      8
       

      The poll was created at 20:31 on July 25, 2015, and so far 18 people voted.
        Loading editor
    • Gonna say that if your arguments are only based on aesthetic, "Moonlit Abandonment Tale" and "Moonlit Tale Ending" sounds like just as much of a trainwreck.

        Loading editor
    • "Moonlit Tale Ending" was aesthetic, "Moonlit Abandonment Tale" is my brain telling me that is the correct grammar

        Loading editor
    • Not to sound rude, but your brain does not know Japanese and has not had experience with translating from Japanese.

      It is not the correct grammar, and you have been given a very good argument for why "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale" is grammatically correct. The Moonlit is not supposed to be used as a descriptor for Abandonment, and you have been told why multiple times. 

        Loading editor
    • no, my brain says it is bad English grammar, not Japanese grammar. i have grown to know abandonment is not an adjective, the adjective would be abandoned.

        Loading editor
    • It's not an adjective. I am not USING it as an adjective. I am using it as a qualifier. That is different. Abandoned Moonlit Tale would be terribly incorrect.

      Look at it this way. Moonlit Tale is a series (of which, by titles alone, only two songs belong to). "The Abandonment" aspect of the title is qualifying which one it is. Eg, "Which Moonlit Tale is this?" "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale." Or, to rephrase it, "The one that's about abandonment".

      If it really bothers you that much, we could try "The Moonlit Tale of Abandonment". The issue with that is that it doesn't work with the subtitle, which is my whole point (The Moonlit Tale of the Ending implies it's about an ending rather than being the final Moonlit Tale, which is what 終末 suggests). They don't mirror each other correctly any other way.

      It's like in a TV show if someone called a particular episode "the Dying Game episode". "Dying game" is not an adjective, but it is being used as a qualifier.

      I don't know how to explain this any clearer. Words other than adjectives can be used as qualifiers.

        Loading editor
    • moonlit bear is still part of the series

        Loading editor
    • Again, as I said right in my comment, by the titles alone. As in, those two songs feature "Moonlit Tale" as a part of the title and "Moonlit Bear" does not. It's not even the crux of my argument.

        Loading editor
    • it is moonlit series, not moonlit tale series O.O, i am pretty so a series can't have less then three songs

        Loading editor
    • 23.122.217.39 wrote:

      Look at it this way. Moonlit Tale is a series (of which, by titles alone, only two songs belong to). "The Abandonment" aspect of the title is qualifying which one it is. Eg, "Which Moonlit Tale is this?" "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale." Or, to rephrase it, "The one that's about abandonment".

      If it really bothers you that much, we could try "The Moonlit Tale of Abandonment". The issue with that is that it doesn't work with the subtitle, which is my whole point (The Moonlit Tale of the Ending implies it's about an ending rather than being the final Moonlit Tale, which is what 終末 suggests). They don't mirror each other correctly any other way.

      This is actually what I was bothered by, it's unfortunate that the translation doesn't work as the latter, as the former could cause confusion without the context of "Moonlit Tale" being used as a qualifier. If there were other songs in the series with the "Moonlit Tale" qualifier then it would be slightly more obvious.

      That aside, if "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale" is passed then I won't mind, it's not like I find it to be a abominable option. I just feel the need to point out that the context of this thread is the only indication towards "Moonlit Tale" being a qualifier, and this thread not being something every contributor will visit.

        Loading editor
    • The point wasn't that it was a literal series, Alexiel. As Hellish pointed out it would be clearer if there were more Moonlit Tale songs, but the point was that the titles are written as if in a series.

        Loading editor
    • the fact "And then the Girl went Mad" has a subtitle that say "End of..." says it is a series. I think the series is: Escape of Salmhofer the Witch, Moonlit Bear, Abandoned on a Moonlit Night(preretranslation) and And Then the Girl Went Mad.

        Loading editor
    • My hope is that the subtitle of "And Then the Girl Went Mad" provides further context that makes the assumption easier for people who aren't in the know (as no one has brought up any objections for The Ending Moonlit Tale I can guess it's easier to tell what's going on in it). I will continue to defend its grammatical accuracy but I will concede it may result in some momentary confusion. It's just my assumption that looking at the title there's only two logical conclusion someone can arrive at.

      1. It's grammatically inaccurate (which it isn't)

      2. It means "Moonlit Tale" as a sepearate term and "Abandonment" as a qualifier.

      I'm not entirely seriously suggesting this, because it would mess with the structure and I don't know if Japanes has colons or not (if it does then I wouldn't, because if they did and there was supposed to be one, it would be in the title already), but we could do "Moonlit Tales: Abandonment".

      Not sure on the plural either (it feels more natural but we probably shouldn't pluralize it)  but while it wouldn't work quite as well with the subtitle, "Moonlit Tales: End[ing]" is better than "Moonlit Tale of the Ending".

      And, to be even MORE clear, when we say series, we're not referring to the Original Sin story. We already know that's a series. That's not what the title is referring to. And Then The Girl Went Mad is not part of the OSS. We are talking about how they are linked by the title, not how they are, canonically, part of a series.

        Loading editor
    • I've also brought up the title with a couple of people who were unfamiliar with Evillious and they understood what it meant. I'm not sure what that says for fans, who are used to thinking of the title in a different way, but that's my take on it.

        Loading editor
    • i have no issue with The Ending Moonlit Tale. and no, i didn't mean OSS. This unofficial(yet still so pain snakingly obvious) series tells about the different tales that happened in a moonlit night(night under the full moon) and that may have been influenced by the moon.

        Loading editor
    • Regardless of whether or not it's an actual series, we're not talking about the content of the songs. We're talking about the titles. That does not have anything to do with the point we're discussing. None of them have "Moonlit Tale" in it, which means that they're irrelevant to this discussion.

        Loading editor
    • they are too, otherwise "The Ending Moonlit Tale" makes no sense and shouldn't be a thing. if they are a series and they don't have "Moonlit Tale" than nothing else should either, i mean we already know it is a tale and we already know they are connected with out the titles, the titles a telling us there is an unofficial series.

        Loading editor
    • Alexiel, you are either completely ignoring every single thing we're saying, or you're trying to derail the discussion. I didn't even say there WASN'T, I just said it didn't matter, which it doesn't. This is about translations, not about determining whether something is a series. Whether it does or doesn't, it doesn't reflect on the issue at hand. "Ending" could very well be referring to just Hansel and Gretel's escapades under the moon and it would still make sense because that's their last one. My usage of "Ending" is not derived from whether or not it's a series but the actual word being used in the title.

        Loading editor
    • 23.122.217.39 wrote: Alexiel, you are either completely ignoring every single thing we're saying, or you're trying to derail the discussion.

      that is not true, can we just end this, it is giving me a head ache and is making me want to leave the wiki >.<

        Loading editor
    • Fine, but we still have to arrive at some sort of resolution regarding these two titles.

      Keeping in mind both titles within context of each other, and how the phrases are structured, here's the options as I see them with their strengths and weaknessness:

      1. The Abandonment Moonlit Tale w/ The Ending Moonlit Tale (Most clearly conveys the connection between both titles, is accurate, and fits the original title structure the best. But the first one can potentially cause a bit of confusion for those not familiar with the reasons why it's translated that way)

      2. The Moonlit Tale of Abandonment w/ The Moonlit Tale of the Ending (Less grammatically confusing, still technically correct. But the second one suggests something different than what it actually means, and doesn't really quite fit in the intended structure)

      3. Moonlit Tale(s): Abandonment w/ Moonlit Tale(s): The Ending (Much less grammatically confusing and also clearly conveys the connection between both titles. But it is very different from the intended structure, and again, suggests something a little different for the second one than it should)

      We could also mix and match a little, like "The Moonlit Tale of Abandonment" paired with "The Ending Moonlit Tale". It won't keep the titles as closely linked but it may fix some of the other issues.

      And while I do not support these because they dont' adhere to the real meaning as closely and the titles dont' mirror each other this way, there's:

      4. A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night w/ End of the Moonlit Night Tales

      There's probably other variations we could arrive that but that's how I'm seeing it.

      I still vote for option 1.

        Loading editor
    • I'd rather not take any chances regarding grammatical confusion, considering when these two songs are viewed, the odds are it won't be at the same time, so some may not pick up on the title similarities.

      My vote's for the third, it fixes my major issues with the title change, and it's the simplest to understand. Although I will agree the issue is still present with "Moonlit Tale(s): The Ending" telling a different message than what it may mean. It'd be alot simpler if we could just replace "Ending" with "Final" or "Finale". It's a shame translating isn't so simple, really.

        Loading editor
    • Tale of Moonlit Abandonment is my preference. It flows the best, is aesthetically pleasing and makes full sense.

        Loading editor
    • It may be the most aesthetically pleasing but I've already explained why we cannot use Moonlit as an adjective for "Abandonment", hence why I excluded it from the options list.

        Loading editor
    • I probably won't see any more replies for several hours, but before I vanish I'll just leave this:

      Would "The Moonlit Tale of Abandonment" coupled with "End of the Moonlit Tales" rise any issues? It seems like a good coupling considering it fixes most of the raised issues, the former is easy to understand and was in fact suggested, and the latter is clear and concise, leaving no room for doubt that the song is the final Moonlit Tale. To be honest I'm unsure, but it's my favourable couplet if we do mix and match as suggested.

      EDIT: If it's not clear: that's what I'm changing my vote to.

        Loading editor
    • I'll be blunt: most of those sound stupid as hell as titles. The only one that makes even remote grammatical sense is the second one. I thnk there's too much focus on making them similar, so we're going to end up with another clusterfuck like "The Gift from the Princess who Brought Sleep" fiasco. Like, yeah, they are technically correct, but they don't all make full sense, aren't exactly telling of the content of the song, and don't necessarily flow. All of which are just as important as accuracy, IMO. But sure, focus on my use of "aesthetically pleasing" and only that.

        Loading editor
    • I only said "aesthetically pleasing" because I didn't feel like rattling off all your reasons all over again, it wasn't just me focusing on one aspect of your argument to ignore all the rest. "Flow" is another aspect of aesthetic, and while I can see having issues with the grammatical sense of option 1 the others are quite clear in their meaning and conveying what the song is about imo. You can think they're stupid as hell all you want--I'm not going to support compromising the meaning in a fashion that I have explicitly explained doesn't work. Gift From the Princess Who Brought Sleep is not a good comparison because the title was not arrived at for technical accuracy, it was arrived at by a bad translation and then cemented by mothy using the title on the book. I'm not trying to be overly literal, and I am open to suggestion, I'm trying to keep our translation from saying something that I have said over and over again it does not mean.

      The things you are talking about are very important, yes, but they should be second to accuracy. Restructuring the title keeping in mind what it actually means. That being said, since option 1 seems to be causing so much contention, I'll change my vote to Hellish's suggestion. It might not work as well to you as your preferred title, but I would hope it is closer to something we can agree on.

        Loading editor
    • I'm changing my vote to "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale", to be used along with "The Ending Moonlit Tale". Anon's reasoning is clear and makes sense, so I feel that the former is the most correct title; the latter is just my personal preference.

        Loading editor
    • I think you're missing what I mean: you're sacrificing clarity and getting across the meaning of the single song for the sake of connecting two songs and being technically accurate. Speaking the names aloud, most of them just. Don't feel right at all, for what is known of the songs. IMO, a title should reflect the song and its meaning. But maybe that's just my musical background speaking. Consider the singular songs first and the connection second, because otherwise we're ending up with things that, while one title makes some amount of sense (but doesn't necessarily bring to mind the song itself and creates a different picture), the other doesn't. Flow is important because if it doesn't flow when you say it, then it just ends up sounding stilted. Unless it's purposely stilted (the speech patterns of the dolls in the Bad End Night songs, for example) then you're doing the song a disservice.

      As well, we are not Japan and even Mothy has ignored the intended Japanese structure for the sake of English clarity and flow, The Portrait Glassred Drew being the prime example--unless you're going to say Mothy did it wrong.

      TLDR; there has to be an option that flows/doesn't come out stilted and doesn't sacrifice clarity over both names for the sheer sake of being as accurate as possible.

        Loading editor
    • I guess I just don't know what you mean by clarity and flow. I suppose I dont' have your musical background so my opinion that option 2 at least flows about as well as your suggestion might not mean much, but as for clarity "A Moonlit Tale of Abandonment" makes perfect sense to me. It's a story with moon themes about two twins being abandoned. "A Tale of Moonlit Abandonment" conveys the same amount of meaning (with the added negativity of being incorrect in the wording) as "A Moonlit Tale of Abandonment".

      As for Portrait, mothy's alterations specified the meaning that he wanted, which was not contradicted by the original Japanese, it wasn't just for the sake of flow. Your suggestion obfuscates the meaning somewhat, which is a different situation. That is my whole issue with it. If it was just a matter of being more vague or specific than the text suggests, while keeping it accurate to the meaning, I'd be all for it. To use Gift From the Princess Who Brought Sleep as an example again, I would be wholeheartedly behind changing it to something more like Gift From the Sleep Princess, a title which is a little vague on the meaning, but the meaning is something that cannot be worded in English without being incredibly cumbersome ("Gift From the Princess Who Forces People To Sleep"). From where I'm sitting I don't think that my suggestions (at least not all of them) are unwieldy enough to not be used in favor of something that isn't a matter of specificity so much as changing the intended meaning.

      If you have any suggestions that aren't as ultra-literal as you see mine, while still not contradicting the meaning, I would be glad to hear it. At this point I'm accepting that it's too difficult to make the titles directly mirror each other. Not everything I'm doing is specifically just for that angle--I am also taking into account the individual title's meaning. It's just that the added context of both titles gives insight into what they are intended to mean.

      I guess to use another example, we changed the name Freesis to Freezis not just to make it sound like a refrigeration unit, but because フリージス by itself denotes a "z" in the name instead of an s. We just needed the added bit of context to make the connection. That is how I am functioning on these titles.

        Loading editor
    • I am convinced by Anon's argument to group Moonlit and Tale together as one single term, so I vote for either:

      "The Moonlit Tale of Abandonment" coupled with "End of the Moonlit Tales", or

      "The Abandonment Moonlit Tale" coupled with "The Ending Moonlit Tale".

        Loading editor
    • I hope you will all forgive me for being that jerk who starts up another round of issues, but I would have to disagree on - something completely different from what everyone has been fighting about - cutting the "night" from the title.

      I'm unable to copy and paste the original Japanese title so I'm going to write out the romanji instead, but, the title is Okizari Tsukiyo Shou. Double-checking, and "Tsukiyo" definitely means "Moonlit Night". Not Moonlit, Moonlit Night. It uses the kanji for "tsuki"("moon"), and "yoru"("night"). Moonlit night. If we're going to argue over accuracy and such, then cutting the "night" just ruins all arguments.

      Now I understand the argument over redundancy, but if we're going to argue about this at all, then quite frankly all of the arguments presented are utterly pointless because they all rely on trying to stay accurate and literal and yet conveniently ignore the "yoru" kanji in "tsukiyo" that confirms that it's "Abandonment Moonlit Night Tale", not "Abandonment Moonlit Tale". Nevermind that cutting the "night" makes no real sense in English either - the story isn't moonlit, the story is about a night, that happens to be moonlit, because the moon being out on that specific night is important. Think of it like the phrase "Dark and stormy night" - yes, the "dark" may be redundant if you think too hard about it and "night", but the thing is, the night is being described as dark and story, because those qualities are important to the night being discussed. You don't say "Story of a dark and stormy", you say "Story of a dark and stormy night", because the story is about a night that is dark and stormy. Following the rules of English, the same should apply here. 

      "Moonlit night tale" isn't redundant at all. It's a story, about a night, a night that is moonlit. Simple as that. Cutting the night is not only completely different from what the title says, it imples the story is moonlit, when it's the night the story is about that's moonlit.

      So I vote for either the literal "Abandonment Moonlit Night Tale" to go with the literal "Ending Moonlit Night Tale", or "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" to go with "A Tale of the Ending of a Moonlit Night" or however you want to go for that latter option. As long as the "Night" stays I'm fine. If I have gotten any of this wrong let me know!

        Loading editor
    • We're not trying to be as literal as possible, we're trying to keep the title from sounding too unwieldy while retaining what it is supposed to mean for the audience. Being literal does not necessarily mean accurate. We though that cutting out Night didn't dramatically change what it means. However, in the grand scheme of things having "Night" in the title isn't the biggest contention I have, and it wasn't even really my idea, so I'm fine with adding it back in. Your arguments do make sense and I can see where you're coming from.

      Having "Moonlit Night" as its own term and seperating the "Tale" is better for me than applying "Moonlit" to "Abandonment" with the "Night" cut out (ie, I'm not okay with "Moonlit Abandonment Tale", "A Tale of Moonlit Abandonment" or any other derivations, but I can accept "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night", which was actually my first suggestion before we got into all this nonsense and I made a somewhat poorly recieved attempt at reinterpreting the title).

      Although again, I know this doesn't seem important, but the "The" in "The Abandonment Moonlit Night Tale" is important to my interpretation that led to how I arranged those words, if we're going to talk about that option > >

        Loading editor
    • Granted, I read this entire thread in one go and the constant back-and-forth is just. Honestly this whole argument is fairly ridiculous when up to this point everyone decided to cut the "night" when the "night is". uh. in the title. It comes off as repeating the same issue that led to this mess in the first place - current translations not accounting for a specific kanji that adds a word to the title, only in this case it's "night" instead of "tale". It'd be funny if it weren't frustrating.

      I know "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" is the first title suggested, that's why I suggested it - it's long, but it covers all the bases and gets the job done. And I suggested "Abandonment Moonlit Night Tale" since when I was reading it it looked as though you guys were going for the stilted literal route and my thoughts were basically "Okay, if that's what you guys want".

      As long as the "Night" gets put back in I'm fine. The title clearly says "tsukiyo", which has the kanji for "yoru", so dropping the "night" when this entire affair started because someone forgot a word when translating is silly.

        Loading editor
    • Should we put this to a vote then? Or should we wait in case someone objects to re-adding Night for some reason?

        Loading editor
    • means the anon is wrong, if we are adding night back in then moonlit is an adjective and is not part of tale, then i should in this case be "Tale of Moonlit Night Bear/Abandonment/Ending" for all three(although "Moonlit Night Bear" can be omitted as that is a lot)

        Loading editor
    • We are not retranslating Moonlit Bear, Alexiel it is already in English.

      Not to mention the anon's whole argument was that "Moonlit Night Tale" is the whole term. Moonlit Night is not an adjective that can be applied to Abandonment. 

        Loading editor
    • Alexiel, my reasons for not using Moonlit as a general adjective are exactly the same regardless of whether or not night is in the title. In fact, part of my reasoning why is BECAUSE of that.

      月夜 means "Moonlit Night". It is not an adjective, it is a noun. The placement of 月夜抄 in both titles led me to believe that "Moonlit Night Tale", or "Moonlit Tale" as we were shortening it at the time, was its own term. The placement of the kanji suggested to me that "Abandonment" is a qualifier for "Moonlit Night Tale" and not the other way around. Re-adding "Night" does not in any way invalidate these points.

      And we have already explained why we cannot retranslate "Moonlit Bear".

        Loading editor
    • Do you want me to go grab some screenshots or a link to the Moonlit Bear PV just so we can end this mess already? At this rate I don't think ANYTHING but a link to the PV itself complete with title right there in the PV in English and the additional Engrish thrown in will end this. I could even log into NicoNico and get mothy's upload proper. Maybe that will finally end this nonsensical argument. ... Though if you want to get REALLY technical Moonlit Bear has DOES have TWO official English titles - okay I'll shut up.

      I'd say put up a proper vote now. There's no real reason for someone to object to keeping "Night" since it's in the original Japanese tiitle, like I pointed out. Dropping the "Night" would bring us back to square one, just with "night" and "tale" swapped.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah if people will object too strongly to The Moonlit Night Tale of Abandonment then I'm fine with "The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" with -The Tale of the Ending on a Moonlit Night- or something like that.

        Loading editor
    • Octofan wrote: We are not retranslating Moonlit Bear, Alexiel it is already in English.

      i keep for getting this

      Octofan wrote: Not to mention the anon's whole argument was that "Moonlit Night Tale" is the whole term. Moonlit Night is not an adjective that can be applied to Abandonment.

      i don't think it, i think we should ask Mothy what he means by this first before we try translate it.

        Loading editor
    • The "the" additionally would also convey the "series" feel that the anon suggested, with it being roughly "Tales on a Moonlit Night" rather than "Moonlit Night Tales," right?

      @Alexiel: That's not actually necessary though. Anyone who knows Japanese knows what this phrase means, creator elaboration is not the problem, it is people trying to figure out how to phrase it. Mothy, who doesn't speak English, would not be of much help in that area and would probably end in a worse trainwreck than we started with (see Gift)

        Loading editor
    • The reason we originally dropped "Night" from the title was part because of the redundancy behind "Moonlit Night", because, as Servant said near the start of the discussion:

      Servant of Evillious wrote:
      I'd say "Moonlit Abandonment Tale" or something similar could work too. Moonlit already implies nighttime.
      Some of us agreed, and we continued the discussion with "Night" disregarded. It can't be Moonlit during the day, after all.

      The second reason for this removal was, once more, addressed earlier in the thread, we didn't want an overly long title:

      Servant of Evillious wrote:
      On a separate note, I don't approve of us keeping things unnecessarily written out for arbitrary clarity

      Again, some of us agreed. Just thought I'd explain because, for whatever reason, there seems to be confusion about why this happened when it's all written above us.

      If there really is no other option then I'll settle for "A Tale of Abandonment on A Moonlit Night", it's not like an overly-long title is that big of a deal. However this, again, raises the issue of having a non-confusing title for And then the girl went mad. "A Tale of the Ending of A Moonlit Night" isn't exactly expressing that it's the final Moonlit Night tale like it should be, it's expressing that this is the ending of a tale.

        Loading editor
    • Seven-Colored Puppeteer wrote: Granted, I read this entire thread in one go and the constant back-and-forth is just. Honestly this whole argument is fairly ridiculous when up to this point everyone decided to cut the "night" when the "night is". uh. in the title. It comes off as repeating the same issue that led to this mess in the first place - current translations not accounting for a specific kanji that adds a word to the title, only in this case it's "night" instead of "tale". It'd be funny if it weren't frustrating.

      I know "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" is the first title suggested, that's why I suggested it - it's long, but it covers all the bases and gets the job done. And I suggested "Abandonment Moonlit Night Tale" since when I was reading it it looked as though you guys were going for the stilted literal route and my thoughts were basically "Okay, if that's what you guys want".

      As long as the "Night" gets put back in I'm fine. The title clearly says "tsukiyo", which has the kanji for "yoru", so dropping the "night" when this entire affair started because someone forgot a word when translating is silly.

      How the Hellish Yard did i miss the middle of this post, i agree with that part, i change my vote to "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night"

        Loading editor
    • To be fair, there has been a lot of arguing and somewhat off topic discussion to muddle through in order to get all the reasonings for every decision, and that's one that had a very little amount of discussion.

      What about "A Tale of the Ending Moonlit Night"? It's not perfect and it doesn't quite match the other title, but I think it might be our best option.

        Loading editor
    • I wouldn't say it was off topic, it's important to register and dismiss most (if not every) option before coming to a decision, otherwise your conclusion could risk being completely half-assed. Although that's fair enough, there was alot of cluttered back and forth.

      Honestly at this point I think we've exhausted all the other sensical options, and there's not many ways this can be misconstrued either, I don't see why not. It works.

        Loading editor
    • Are we voting, then? Assuming most of the discussion is finally out of the way, stop me if I'm wrong--

      I've said my vote a few times but it's changed a little as we talked about it so to be clear, I support both "[A/The] Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" and "[A/The] Tale of the Ending Moonlit Night".

      Does anyone feel very strongly about the "A/The" issue? I couldn't really care less which one we use, so long as at least one of them is there.

        Loading editor
    • "Moonlit already implies nighttime" my butt, if the song literally has the kanji for "moonlit night" - not moonlit, moonlit night - in it, it HAS to stay "moonlit night". Dropping the "night" implies something other than the night is moonlit, when no, the title literally describes the night as moonlit the same way you could describe a night as dark and stormy in English. By that logic, you could take a favorite non-Evillious song of mine - "Wasurena Tsukiyo" by Sound Horizon, which has the exact same kanji for "tsukiyo" in its title as Okizari Tsukiyo Shou - and translate its title as "Don't forget the moonlit", even though it should be "Don't forget the moonlit night". It doesn't work like that because "moonlit" is an adjective but it is specifically written as referring to the night.

      Drop the "night" and you completely ignore the kanji "yoru" in "tsukiyo" the same way we've been ignoring the "tale" up to this point. And then we end up back at square 1, only a bit different. I've explained this already, if you guys are going to argue about how accurate the title is then the "night" has to stay. It's written directly in the Japanese, dropping it is a bad idea.

      And we've been dealing with long titles so it's not like it's anything new. It could be worse. I'd take a long title over the loss of a key word.

      23.122.217.39 wrote:
      What about "A Tale of the Ending Moonlit Night"? It's not perfect and it doesn't quite match the other title, but I think it might be our best option.

      I see that and raise you "A Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night" to go with "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night". It's probably not perfect - see my extra added "an" - but it could work.

        Loading editor
    • i'd say "The" to match most of the song here(even though i omit it on my PC anyway)

        Loading editor
    • Oh blast it, we're all posting at the same time.

      I write it with "A" since it just sounds better, but I don't mind either way.

        Loading editor
    • Seven-Colored Puppeteer wrote:

      I see that and raise you "A Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night" to go with "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night". It's probably not perfect - see my extra added "an" - but it could work.

      The issue is still the same. This is implying that And Then the Girl went Mad is refferring to an Ending of an existing tale. It isn't. It's referring to it's position as the final Moonlit Tale.

      To quote the earlier discussion, although the suggestion was different the issue is the same:

      A Wikia contributor wrote:
      The Moonlit Tale of the Ending implies it's about an ending rather than being the final Moonlit Tale, which is what 終末 suggests
        Loading editor
    • aldskjfsdf seems I spoke too soon

      A Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night would make it better fit with A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night, most certainly. My only concern is that, unlike Abandonment, Ending has decent alternatives that aren't as long--considering how short the titles are in Japanese I wouldn't want to make them too long with a lot of sentence particles if they aren't absolutely necessary.

      We are kind of making things pretty long already though so that's rather a non-issue.

      Calling it "An" Ending rather than "The" Ending does imply that it's the end of something other than the Moonlit Nights, though. The Tale of the Ending on a Moonlit Night? Or does it feel like we're making things more complicated than they should be?

      I'd be willing to go with that though

        Loading editor
    • All right then, how about "The Tale's Ending on a Moonlit Night"? Still not perfect but at this point I'm going to just start throwing out variations until people can agree.

        Loading editor
    • I have to duck out of the conversation right now to do something so can't think about it in too much detail but I'm not entirely sure i'm fine with "Tale's Ending". Can't go into detail right now though

        Loading editor
    • 23.122.217.39 wrote:
      Or does it feel like we're making things more complicated than they should be?

      I genuinely think that's the least of our current worries...Oy vey.

      23.122.217.39 wrote:
      All right then, how about "The Tale's Ending on a Moonlit Night"? Still not perfect but at this point I'm going to just start throwing out variations until people can agree.

      It, again, implies that a different Tale is ending, rather than And then the Girl went mad being the final tale.

      How does "The Ending Tale on A Moonlit Night" sound? Well... I shouldn't ask "how does it sound", I should "does it work?".

      Reminder: I believe we're still working off of "A/The Tale of Abandonment of A Moonlit Night"

        Loading editor
    • what about "The Ending Tale of Moonlit Night"

        Loading editor
    • At this rate I think we need a conch. Who's got the conch?

      Neither of those work. They simply don't match up with "A/The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" , which is what we seem to be agreeing with here.

      If we want them to match up, by your suggestion it would be "The Abandonment Tale on a Moonlit Night", which just sounds terrible, and "The Ending Tale of Moonlit Night" needs an extra "a" between the "of" and "Moonlit".

      "A/The Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night" matches with "A/The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" - it's a story, about an ending to a story, on a moonlit night. And Then The Girl Went Mad is a story, about the ending to a story, on a moonlit night. "The Tale's Ending on a Moonlit Night" matches as well, and explicitly says "The tale's ending" - it's the ending to a tale, the tale of abandonment.

      It IS a different tale that's ending - And Then The Girl Went Mad is about the ending to another tale, while being a tale of its own. It works because it's one of THOSE songs that is definitely related to the others, but isn't really part of any specific series outside the overall one. If you get what I mean.

        Loading editor
    • Forget conch, we need an Akashic Recorder to pass around...

      I figured, it was worth a shot though. Mistake understood.

      I'd like to request we make it "The" because, while the "A Tale of Abandonment On a Moonlit Night" is fine, "A Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night" sounds less final than "The Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night". Considering the theme of "And then the girl went mad" as an ending, I feel like finality in the title is needed.

      In that case this seems fine, I can get behind that, I'd prefer more clarity but quite frankly I feel this may be the best we get.

      Regardless, I'd like for some opinions from other wiki users.

        Loading editor
    • i like how all we did was add "Tale of" "Abandoned(ment) on a Moonlit Night"

        Loading editor
    • Well, that's because we had most of the title right, we just lost a word in translation.

      So are we agreeing on "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night"? We can talk about And Then The Girl Went Mad a bit more once we agree on Okizari Tsukiyo Shou and know we all agree.

        Loading editor
    • I'm back. Hellish covered what I was gonna say on "Tale's Ending". Are we using "The" or "A"? I think "The" would be a bit better considering Hellish's arguments, and to give Abandoned its own sort of significance. The abandonment of the twins is a pretty big part of Evillious history, after all. (Not just A tale about abandonment but THE tale about abandonment, you know).

      So, "The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night". Without arguing about And Then the Girl Went Mad for now, this is something we can all agree on, yes?

        Loading editor
    • My vote is yes

        Loading editor
    • I don't really care if it's "The" or "A", I just want to know if we agree on the rest of it. My thoughts should be obvious - I vote yes, no matter if it's "The" or "A", (even if it sounds better as "A" to my ears but that's just me).

      We'll deal with And Then The Girl Went Mad once we get a consensus on Abandonment here. Though I think we're all just repeating ourselves like one big broken record. Can't hurt though since it helps to be absolutely certain.

        Loading editor
    • we still need Servy's pass

        Loading editor
    • I can largely agree with the above and am fine with most options.

      With that, I count a majority for "(A/The) Tale of Abandoment on a Moonlit Night"

      Since that area seems to be a little conflicting, we won't be including an "A" or "The" to this unless you all want to discuss it further to add one or the other.

        Loading editor
    • Or of course we could just leave the "the/a" out together. Why didn't I think of that?

      So now that's it's probably agreed on that we're going with "Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night", we can deal with And Then The Girl Went Mad. Oh boy. Did we agree to start with "The Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night" and keep bouncing off possibilities from there or do we start fresh?

        Loading editor
    • > > well having one of them is kind of important to the title so I wouldn't just exclude it. It's more that no one cares which.

      Since we have people who are fond of one or the other but don't seem to have any who really care either way Servant should flip a coin and we'll all abide by that. It doesn't feel like something to start another discussion on.

        Loading editor
    • I say we wait until we've decided on And Then the Girl went Mad, as the subtitle for that song is the core of all my arguments to add "The" I feel we should just say "Use Neither" until we decided if it benefits said subtitle.

        Loading editor
    • Is it possible to have the title as "Moonlit Night Tale of Abandonment"? If not, I'm with the majority.

      I also change my vote to "Ending Moonlit Night Tale" as the subtitle for And Then The Girl Went Mad.

        Loading editor
    • Moonlit Night Tale of Abandonment is choppy-sounding and exactly what I meant by not flowing, if anyone wanted an example.

      I also disagree that we need night. The argument for it is because it's in the Japanese title literally, but again: you can't exactly be moonlit in the daytime, so while Japanese is being specific, English doesn't need to be because, logically, when else would it be that the moonlight is shining? It helps the title become less unwieldy, similar to how we decided on Weathered Head at Onigashima as opposed to Weather-Beaten Head at Onigashima. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together will realize that it's night (especially since the song is about the Moonlit twins being abandoned by Adam and Eve Moonlit on a night in which they return home and, maddened by moonlight, kill their parents by moonlight).

      I'm trying to think of other titles that are a possibility that both flow and are accurate (while not being unwieldy), as I'm ure there is a middle ground here.

        Loading editor
    • we need "Night" because "Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit" make no sense

        Loading editor
    • In the case of A/The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night, you have to keep the night in regardless. "A/The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit" Is just not correct in any capacity. Since that's the title most people are agreeing on, Night is probably going to stay in. 

      Of course I don't know about if we suggest another title 0o0 

      • Edit*: Alexiel commented first.
        Loading editor
    • Eh, I still don't like it because it's beyond a mouthful (and that may be personal perference but I really, really, really dislike long titles unless they're meant to be long and ridiculous). I'm still trying to figure out something shorter.

        Loading editor
    • In my opinion, A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night is already a middle ground. I have suggested shorter titles that worked for conveying what it meant but they all sounded terrible.

      Unless "The Abandonment Moonlit Night Tale" somehow becomes more palatable with the "Night" in there (and I'm sure it doesn't), I'm not sure what else there is. I don't think there's any way to make it shorter without it sounding grammatically awkward, and there's no way to make it not awkward without making it overly long.

        Loading editor
    • On the topic of the "Night" thing, I entered 月夜 into Denshi Jisho to see if there's any other way it could be interpreted, and apparently the word is also used for a species of ghost fungus, a type of mushroom that glows at night (月夜茸). The term is translated on Jisho as the Moonlight Mushroom, and other countries have similar naming themes for it (such as the Jack O' Lantern Mushroom).

      I'm not saying this proves that "Tsukiyo" means "Moonlight" and not "Moonlit Night"--It still clearly means "Moonlit Night". But I'm saying there does appear to be a precedent for shortening the term as to cut out "night" and focus entirely on the moon aspect of it when used as a descriptor for other things.

        Loading editor
    • so "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Mushroom"? OuO (bad joke)

        Loading editor
    • I'm pretty sure in context it's meant to be "moonlit night" in our case - it's like with the alternate example I cited above: The non-Evillious song "Wasurena Tsukiyo" has a title that means "Don't Forget the Moonlit Night", and uses the same kanji for "Tsukiyo" as Okizari Tsukiyo Shou, but you don't translate the title as "Don't Forget the Moonlit" because that just sounds silly. It's "moonlit night", you can tell it's meant to be "moonlit night" from the context.

      Of course if you're that picky it could be "A Tale of Abandonment and Moonlight" but that's clearly not going to work either. We've already dealt with long titles so complaining about length when there's no way to shorten it without it sounding terrible is silly/

      I still vote for "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night".

        Loading editor
    • Just a note: I'd like us to keep in mind that "Moonlit" is, and has been since the start of the discussion, a double meaning. Referencing the Moonlit family as well as the state of the night. So changing it to "Moonlight" wouldn't work anyway.

      The Tale of Abandonment on a Mooonlit Night is still where my vote still stands.

      then again i'm also in favour of "A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Mushroom" just for the sake of messing with mothy

      "The Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night" was brought up earlier for And then the Girl went Mad, and I was skeptical, but it seems to be the best suggested option so far, unless anyone has any alternatives?

        Loading editor
    • Just a random person wanting to put my two cents in. I like, "(The/A) Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night" or "Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night." Either way sounds nice.

        Loading editor
    • Octofan
      Octofan removed this reply because:
      Spam
      00:16, July 1, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • A little late for you to come on if all you're going to say is that, Malice, since the argument was over yesterday.

      But I agree with A/The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night

        Loading editor
    • Not even going to offer a vote, Malice?

      As it stands it seems that, save for one, most of us agree with A/The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night still. Can we get to discussing And Then The Girl Went Mad now? I believe I saw A/The Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night suggested a few times. Would that work with everyone? Perhaps use that structure but make some minor adjustments?

      If we're not going to concern ourselves with mirroring Abandonment too closely there are shorter alternatives we could try, but we'll see if everyone can be alright with that one first.

        Loading editor
    • I vote for "The Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night" to go with "A/The Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night". "The" seems to fit And Then The Girl Went Mad best. I'm still neutral on is "The" or "A" is used for Abandonment though.

        Loading editor
    • 23.122.217.39 wrote:
      In my opinion, A Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night is already a middle ground. I have suggested shorter titles that worked for conveying what it meant but they all sounded terrible.

      Unless "The Abandonment Moonlit Night Tale" somehow becomes more palatable with the "Night" in there (and I'm sure it doesn't), I'm not sure what else there is. I don't think there's any way to make it shorter without it sounding grammatically awkward, and there's no way to make it not awkward without making it overly long.

      I agree. I think the current title passed earlier was more than acceptable with all the different takes.

      23.122.217.39 wrote:
      On the topic of the "Night" thing, I entered 月夜 into Denshi Jisho to see if there's any other way it could be interpreted, and apparently the word is also used for a species of ghost fungus, a type of mushroom that glows at night (月夜茸). The term is translated on Jisho as the Moonlight Mushroom, and other countries have similar naming themes for it (such as the Jack O' Lantern Mushroom).

      I'm not saying this proves that "Tsukiyo" means "Moonlight" and not "Moonlit Night"--It still clearly means "Moonlit Night". But I'm saying there does appear to be a precedent for shortening the term as to cut out "night" and focus entirely on the moon aspect of it when used as a descriptor for other things.

      This has been my experience with the term as well.

      I agree that "Moonlit Night" is necessary if we're going with the idea the term is modifying the "Tale" and not the abandonment. A "Moonlit Tale" and a "Moonlit Night Tale" have different meanings vs a "Moonlit Abandonment" and the same alternative, at least as what's being purported so far (unless anyone's proposing the (abstract thing) tale isn't about a moonlit night but is actually being illuminated by a moonlit night).

      Tale of Abandoment on a Moonlit Night is fine, though I'm personally open to some of the other options.

      If everyone else is fine with moving on with the other song, I think "End/Ending Tale on a Moonlit Night" would work best should the "End/Ending" be modifying the tale as well.

        Loading editor
    • I like Ending Tale on a Moonlit Night. It's still something qualifying the tale while the other title also has Abandonment qualifying the tale. So even if they aren't structured the same way, Abandonment and Ending are both qualifying the "Tale on a Moonlit Night" or something like that orz I said qualifying too many times

        Loading editor
    • Can we take the silence on the issue as indication that no one has a big problem for "The Ending Tale on a Moonlit Night"?

      Could there be some votes on getting this particular issue closed, then?

        Loading editor
    • I have a question about the translation of the name Shaw and what got the name Shaw out of ショウmainly because I've looked up other characters with that name and found two whose names are spelled the exact same way and it being translated as Shou. I was wondering if there was like an official english translation that I missed or if it's possible for his name just to be translated both ways like how Seth's name can be translated as Seth or Seto.

        Loading editor
    • The romanization is literally "shou" and the spelling is used for both the word "show" and the name "shaw" (Artie Shaw for example).

      Seth's a matter of the romanization literally being "Seto" and being used as the spellings for both the names Seth and Set.

        Loading editor
    • Seth as well fits in with the naming scheme of Adam and Eve, even with Meta (derived from Metatron).

        Loading editor
    • Seth's name is spelled in English in the Salmhofer PV, no one's going to touch it.

        Loading editor
    • While I'm sure many of us are eager to get away from this discussion, as it's been going on for a while, we still need to reach a consensus regarding And then the Girl went Mad...

      So, to count what we've got so far:

      I've seen three suggestions towards The/A/(Void) Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night.

      I've seen two suggestions towards Ending Tale on a Moonlit Night.

      I'm going to continue pushing the former, it matches Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night better, we've already changed the article's title after all.

      Sorry for bringing this back but we really need to get it done eventually. If anybody would like to offer a vote or an alternative...?

        Loading editor
    • I'm still going for Ending Tale on a Moonlit Night. Tale of an Ending might match the structure better but I think Ending Tale works better for the meaning and it's shorter--it's not supposed to a full title all by itself.

      But if Tale of an Ending gets more votes or equal votes I'd be willing to change my stance if it gets the issue closed faster.

        Loading editor
    • I also vote for Ending Tale on a Moonlit Night. Tale of an Ending on a Moonlit Night sounds rather clunky for a subtitle. Besides to me, it doesn't make much sense.

      Based on the Japanese title, I think Ending modifies Moonlit Night Tale, so it's not like there's any 'Ending' on its own, it's either the final tale of many moonlit night tales, or the ending chapter of the moonlit tale that has been going on throughout the history of Evillious.

        Loading editor
    • It's officially been over 24 hours. I'm going to take that as a unanimous "we're all okay with "Ending Tale on a Moonlit Night" and give it a pass. If users have any issue with that, then bring it back to discussion in the far off future.

        Loading editor
    • Wait, I think we voted for Ending Tale ON a Moonlit Night, not OF.

      But now that it's mentioned, I think Ending Tale OF a Moonlit Night makes more sense than Ending Tale ON a Moonlit Night, given that it's a tale about a moonlit night, not a tale told on a moonlit night as the latter title might suggest.

      What do you guys think?

        Loading editor
    • I'm fine with either.

        Loading editor
    • Typo's been rectified. Continue to discuss as you will.

        Loading editor
    • I'm fine with us changing it to "ON". I can sweep back along the edits I've (admittadely) made rather rambunctiously, I'd just like a quick consensus regarding this. I'm fine with either way, Emuei brought up a good point.

        Loading editor
    • My vote is for "on" a Moonlit Night than "of", mothy probably meant for the title be a reference to Tale of Abandonment on a Moonlit Night. Just by the song lyrics, we can't determine whether it was supposed to mean a tale told on a moonlit night, or a tale of a moonlit night.

        Loading editor
    • Considering "of" as posited by Servy was a typo then I don't see this as needing much discussion. "On" it is.

        Loading editor
    • I'd like to ask how we came to Survival 'Ma' when the Japanese is literally 'Ma' Survival. Why did we decide on switching Survival and 'Ma'?

      There's a similar situation, that is Project 'Ma' (Japanese: 'Ma' Project), but it's a bit different. While 'Ma' Project works fine, Project 'Ma' is also a valid order, and it gives a more significant, huge-ish feel to the Project. Real life examples would be Project Runway and Mission Impossible. But I think it's not the same with 'Ma' Survival.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah I'm not sure how that happened either. Seems like a valid thing to reorganize unless there was a special reason for how it is now that I wasn't privy to.

        Loading editor
    • They're both ordered the same way: 「Ma」Keikaku and 'Ma' Sabaibaru (straight taken from the Romaji boxes by the way, we should probably fix the inconsistency with 'Ma' Sabaibaru being in the single quotations and 「Ma」Keikaku being in the bracket quotations)

      So if we were to change one wouldn't we need to change the other? Because as I said above, they're structured the exact same way, changing one and leaving the other doesn't really make much sense. Unless there's an exception to that rule when it comes to translating that I'm simply not aware of? in which case please point it out for me and disregard this thank u

        Loading editor
    • I guess you could make the argument that the titles are meant to mirror each other and that's the reason why they were translated the way they were, but as Emuei stated, there's a reason to re-order the one and there's no reason to re-order to the second. In both cases, "Ma" seems to be used to quantify the word after it. "Project 'Ma'" makes sense in this regard--It's the "Ma" project. I mean if we were going to alter that one too we could actually call it "The 'Ma' Project", but that's less snappy and easy to use than "Project 'Ma'".

      "Survival 'Ma'" on the other hand is not grammatically correct and does not convey the information the same way. It's a case of where ideally they would both be translated the same way but the word "Project" just happens to function differently for English speakers than "Survival".

      Ex, at the risk of sounding redundant, you can say "Project Icarus" or "The Icarus Project" and both would mean the same thing but you cannot say "Survival Course" and "Course Survival" as the same because one means "A Course on Surviving" and the other means "Surviving the Course".

      It would help if it was an in-universe term to understand more of the connotations behind the title. I assume it's "Surviving through 'Ma'" rather than "The Survival portion of 'Ma'" or "The Survival of the 'Ma'", hence why I would support making it "'Ma' Survival". If this is all making sense.

        Loading editor
    • Regarding the order, I think that Survival Ma makes the most sense. I'm not a native speaker however, and in my main language the order of everything is swapped. However, with this information:

      23.122.217.39 wrote:
      It would help if it was an in-universe term to understand more of the connotations behind the title. I assume it's "Surviving through 'Ma'" rather than "The Survival portion of 'Ma'" or "The Survival of the 'Ma'", hence why I would support making it "'Ma' Survival". If this is all making sense.


      I disagree. I always read that title as "The Survival of the 'Ma'" and not "Surviving through 'Ma'". While in Project 'Ma' the Ma is just the name of the project, in Survival the "Ma" refers to the people participating on it. That way, I think "Survival 'Ma'" makes more sense.

      Edit: Allow me to rectify. The title should be interpreted as something like "Survival of the 'Ma' (candidates)". I know they're not considered 'Ma' yet. :P

        Loading editor
    • I think Anon's explanation is the most convincing but if you're still not convinced let me add a few points too.

      The way I see the 7th project is that it was a survival show, like a reality show about surviving through rough and harsh conditions to win a prize. The candidates battled to the death to take the title of 'Ma' to birth the twin gods and become the ruler of the country.

      That's why it can only be 'Ma' Survival, a survival to be 'Ma' (with survival a noun, modified by another noun 'Ma'). Survival 'Ma' suggests 'the last standing Ma' (with 'Ma' a noun, modified by an adjective survival), which is not the intended meaning imo.

      One more point to add, considering -Who Will Survive?-, the subtitle acts like a slogan/motto/catchphrase of the show. It only makes sense with 'Ma' Survival, but not Survival 'Ma'.

        Loading editor
    • But it wasn't a survival show as far as we know. I don't think they were that openly cruel, especially since then they wouldn't really need to hide that they were killing each other. It's more likely Irina, as a HER, took things to the extreme and Elluka reacted accordingly since one was an "accident" and the other a suicide, and Apocalypse was an easy place to put the blame and ever looming in the background. And we know they WOULD kill a Ma candidate if they could.

      I heaveily agree with Sloth Sinner's view on it. As well, by referencing reality shows, you realize that works against you with SURVIVOR as the leading example and if we went with that set-up, it would still be Survival Ma?

        Loading editor
    • It all comes down to if you think it means "Surviving through the 'Ma'" or "Survival of the Ma (candidates)", honestly. I'm more for the latter hence why I think Survival 'Ma' makes the most sense.

        Loading editor
    • Emuei
      Emuei removed this reply because:
      Redundant
      16:03, August 14, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Reply to 67.65.248.230

      Even if the project that Leviantan goverment organized was not a survival show, I think it is the way mothy want us to see that event as. He wouldn't throw an English word in the title if it weren't the specific meaning he wanted to convey.

      Moreover, the Japanese title is 'Ma' Sabaibaru ('Ma' Survival), not the other way round. Translating 'Ma' Sabaibaru to Survival 'Ma' is odd and incorrect in my opinion.

        Loading editor
    • Emuei wrote:

      Then I guess we better make it "MA Project" because it's "MA Keikaku" in Japanese, to be blunt.

      And no, I NEVER got the impression that this is what Mothy wanted us to see the event as. It literally did not occur to me until you even mentioned it, and I'm honestly baffled as to your assertion that this is how Mothy wanted us to see it given there's no indication it's at all meant to invoke reality TV.

      Either way, I'm agreeing that "Survival of the MA" is what I got from it as it's all about the candidates dying in mytserious circumstances until one is left who is declared MA, not as a TV show or anything but just as a thing tht happens. Especially since MA itself is a title there is little reason to say it means "Surviving through the MA" when that woman will be MA for the rest of her life.

        Loading editor
    • 67.65.248.230 wrote:
      Emuei wrote:
      Then I guess we better make it "MA Project" because it's "MA Keikaku" in Japanese, to be blunt.

      That actually is one of the suggestions, or rather "The 'Ma' Project" to match with "The 'Ma' Survival." 

        Loading editor
    • Just a reminder, the Salmhofer PV explicitly uses "Project Ma" so do take that into account if you're going to argue about translating the two titles consistently. 

      Personally, I'm fine with what we have currently.

        Loading editor
    • The more I read it, and the more I apply context, the more I think the meaning is supposed to be along the lines of "Survival of the one who became/becomes MA" or "Survival of the MA candidates." Like, yes, it says -Who Will Survive?- but keep in mind we also thought that Elluka was MA and killed Irina there for awhile because it's what made logical sense up to that point.

        Loading editor
    • 0O0 Oh like "Do you know who will survive to be Ma? AHAHAHA WRONG." Or something like that? I'm gonna be honest, I don't mind either way how it's worded, just interesting to puzzle out the intention because this was always a bit of a "gratuitous English" title for me.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, basically. I mean, at that point, it made sense that Irina died and possessed a stuffed cat while Elluka went on to become MA. Recollective Musicbox wasn't clear on who stabbed who, after all, and why would Elluka be around if SHE was stabbed? So it always felt more like Mothy poking at fandom a bit to me and asking if we really knew what happened.

        Loading editor
    • Well if you guys are not convinced I don't have anything else to bring up. Survival 'Ma' still sounds a bit odd to me but it's fine I guess.

        Loading editor
    • I realize that it might not be wise to bring this up without an alternative name in mind but I was wondering if we could perhaps consider retranslating the name Ron Grapple. Specifically the Ron part. I've spent this whole time thinking (like most people who see the same Ron, I expect) that it was pronounced Rahn. I look at the kana and apparently it's pronounced more like "Roan/Loan". I'm not saying we have to spell it that way but is there any alternatives that make the pronunciation more clear?

      Or is there a specific reason it was spelled Ron that I'm missing (is there a precedent for spelling the name that way in Japan?)

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, it's the Japanese spelling of Ron (see Ron Weasley).

        Loading editor
    • Ah, alright then. That's good enough for me.

        Loading editor
    • A friend of mine wanted me to bring this up since they are too shy to do it themselves

      "I don't know if someone already said it, but the title of Barisol song should be "Barisol's Children were Only Children". The title is "Barīzōru no Kodomo wa Hitorikko" and it appears at the end of the song, when Levia and Behemo get together. When talking about Behemo alone, the song said "Barīzōru no musuko wa hitorikko" and, when talking about Levia alone, the song said "Barīzōru no musume wa hitorikko", but this part talks about both. As so, it should be in plural form."

      My input: Unlike my friend, I don't know enough Japanese to agree or disagree, but the translators of the other two EC fandoms (Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese) have also translated it in plural form; "Los Hijos de Barisol son Solo un Hijo Único" (The Childern of Barisol are an Only Child) in Spanish and "Os filhos de Barizol eram filhos únicos" (Barisol's Children were Only Children) in Brazilian Portuguese. Any thoughts?

        Loading editor
    • This has been brought up before, and as I explained in the past, there's no reason to translate it that way. To break down the title, "Bariizooru no kodomo" means "Barisol's Child". It does not mean "Barisol's Children". "Kodomo" can be used as a plural, but generally when that's the intended interpretation a "tachi" will be affixed to the end (not to say it's completely out of the realm of possibility but that's my stance). In addition, the next part, "Hitorikko", means "single child". There is nothing in the title suggesting that it is meant to be in past tense as your friend is stating. It is, simply, "Barisol's Child is an Only Child". To say "Barisol's Children Were an Only Child" is grammatically awkward in terms of pluralization and singulars and contradictory.

      It would be erroneous to call Levia and Behemo, together, "Barisol's Children". They are not Barisol's children, plural. They are, technically, single children, born of two different mothers who are both named Barisol. Thus, while there are two of them, each would be "Barisol's Child". It's a play on the jump between alternate realities. They are "Barisol's Only Child". But they are two different versions of that child.

      As for other languages, they are not official sources. I don't know Spanish or Brazilian Portugese, and thus I can't speak for why they made their decision, but simply put, while changing the title would make it less confusing grammatically in the end of the song, it does so in a way that oversimplifies what Levia and Behemo are to each other. It also does so in a way that spoils the "reveal" of sorts in the song--we were meant, at first, to think it was about one child. Then we discover it's really about two--two who are, really, the same person but from different worlds. To put "children" in the title makes this explicit from the beginning.

        Loading editor
    • 23.122.217.39 wrote:
      It would be erroneous to call Levia and Behemo, together, "Barisol's Children". They are not Barisol's children, plural. They are, technically, single children, born of two different mothers who are both named Barisol. Thus, while there are two of them, each would be "Barisol's Child". It's a play on the jump between alternate realities. They are "Barisol's Only Child". But they are two different versions of that child.

      Yeah, "Barisol's Children" wouldn't make sense context wise. I think the foreign translators used "Children" because there is no gender neutral noun for "Child" in their language, it's either son or daughter.

      I didn't know this was already discussed. I'm sorry for bringing this up again.

        Loading editor
    • It's alright. Said discussion was in the chat room, so there's no way you could have known. And it was a good opportunity to set out a formal rebuttal for anyone else who might have had the same idea.

        Loading editor
    • Can anyone figure out what スベルンクック (romaji suberunkukku) is? It's a German word (or at least intended to look like one), and something Margarita mentions in her second monologue. In context I assume it's a game of some kind.

      Could it possibly be Spielkuche? I don't know a lot of German, so I'm not sure if the pronunciation is spot on and I don't know exactly what it means, but I imagine it's something to do with playing house? (Kaspar teaching her how to pretend cook or something). But that leaves the "n" out and I"m not sure if that's acceptable for German loanwording.

        Loading editor
    • Not that this is an issue I expect many people to care about, but I suggest changing the name Cle Mence (クレー=メンス) to Clay Mence.

      I realize that it's likely intended as a pun on Clemence (if both names were put together instead of separated that is what it would be), and that the spelling was done to reflect that, but I consider the current spelling to be innacurate to how the name is meant to be pronounced, as it suggests his first name is said as "Cleh". I think that the pun in Clay Mence is still preserved for anyone who says it out loud. Not all punny names have to be quite so blaringly obvious in the spelling.

      Clay is also an actual name. Cle is not, to my knowledge.

      Just my two cents.

        Loading editor
    • 146.113.74.251 wrote:
      but I consider the current spelling to be innacurate to how the name is meant to be pronounced, as it suggests his first name is said as "Cleh".

      I'm not sure I understand your meaning, as it is "Kuree" and you said it yourself that クレーメンス is the Japanese spelling for Clemence and its variations. I don't mind either way, but クレイ (Kurei) is another spelling for "clay" and is pronounced differently than クレー so I have to disagree with the notion the current spelling is any more or less accurate to the intended pronunciation.

      It sounds like this is a similar case to the Overlord series' "Sebas Tian" (セバス・チャン).

        Loading editor
    • While reviewing my translations for DoE and SoE it occurred to me a more accurate translation of おやつの時間 (oyatsu no jikan), part of Riliane's catchphrase, would be "tea time".

      Oyatsu apparently is a particular snack that is taken in the afternoon, between meals. "Snack time" is what it more literally means, yes, but "tea time" would be a more suitable translation to better convey the aristocratic refinement and cultural place that the term is intended to mean when Riliane uses it, in my opinion.

      It's not used very often in the States, so just to clarify that "tea time" doesn't just mean a time when someone takes tea, but also has various small snacks, generally light pastries (cakes, crumpets, scones, cookies, brioche, etc). "Having someone over for tea" similarly is inviting them over to eat around 3 in the afternoon.

        Loading editor
    • 146.113.74.251 wrote:
      While reviewing my translations for DoE and SoE it occurred to me a more accurate translation of おやつの時間 (oyatsu no jikan), part of Riliane's catchphrase, would be "tea time".

      Japanese dictionaries are much more varied, translating it from simply "teatime" to "snack time" or even "afternoon refreshment". The general definition is simply a mid-afternoon snack time. I believe in France this period is 3 o'clock. I'm not partial to any term, personally, so long as we're consistent.

        Loading editor
    • Japanese dictionary aside, "snack time" has a much more childish connotation than teatime, which could work for Riliane but which I'm not sure is the intention. "Snack time" to me connotes a small child in a day-care, while "teatime" connotes more a princess with a tea service and sweets, such as Riliane. 

      So yes, it's a minor and slightly subjective alteration but I approve.

        Loading editor
    • If no one has any objections in about a day can I go through and change this? Or is there a longer time period I have to wait?

        Loading editor
    • 146.113.74.251 wrote:
      Snip.

      Give it a little time, don't rush. This is hardly a sizable number of people pitching in their thoughts about whether to change it.

        Loading editor
    • Anon's suggestion sounds good to me.

        Loading editor
    • I honestly disagree with the change. Snack time does sound a little bit more childlish, but to me it makes sense. Riliane is indeed a somewhat childish girl, contrary to the mature connotation with "tea time" (honestly, it makes Riliane sound Brittish instead of French. XD). It makes sense that after seeing someone get executed she just doesn't care and, akin to a child, was only waiting for snack time from the very beginning. 

        Loading editor
    • She is childish, yes, but she's also a princess. She carries on with all of the other trappings of being one, including reacting harshly to anyone who dares touch her without her approval. I just feel she'd at least be making attempts to sound more sophisticated than she really is. In addition to that, tea time is an actual time of the day (3 o'clock), as suggested by the word oyatsu, whereas "snack time" suggests that she's just deciding to have a snack.

      She's a childish girl wearing a princess mask. Not necessarily just a spoiled brat.

      As for the British thing, I've noticed that English speaking representations of the French have a tendency to be portrayed as British more often than not (Les Misérable, for example)--and that's assuming they don't have their own version of tea time. Not to mention that Lucifenia also has a lot of inspiration from Britain (Arth is likely named off of King Arthur, for example).

      --Ultimately your opinion is your own but that's my defense of the change, I suppose.

        Loading editor
    • Is it possible to shorten Greeonio to Greonio? Idk Greonio looks like a surname, but if is has to be Greeonio thats fine

        Loading editor
    • DaughteroftheforestCourt1 wrote:
      Is it possible to shorten Greeonio to Greonio?

      I'm p sure Greeonio is supposed to be a reference to "green onion" which is Miku's character item. If we shortened it then that'd be lost.

        Loading editor
    • Tobimisa wrote:
      DaughteroftheforestCourt1 wrote:
      Is it possible to shorten Greeonio to Greonio?
      I'm p sure Greeonio is supposed to be a reference to "green onion" which is Miku's character item. If we shortened it then that'd be lost.

      That's the intention of the Japanese spelling. It's "gree" like in "green" not "gre" like in "Gretel".

      Going back to the previous topic, if there's no further opinions, then I see a majority opinion approving or neutral toward changing snack time to teatime and will give it a pass.

        Loading editor
    • Can I go through and make the appropriate edits?

      > > sorry if the answer to that is obvious just don't wanna step on toes

        Loading editor
    • 12 hours seems like a fair enough grace period. I'm giving it a pass. Feel free to go ahead.

        Loading editor
    • Hah, I came to late ! I just wanted to say, about this snack time thea time thing... Well I'm french, and for me snack time is a better term than tea time, well at least if you see it from the point of view Lucifenia = France. Because in France the snack time, the "goûter" is really a kind of ritual, a small fourth meal at 4 PM. Of course, it has some kind of childish meaning, but less than in english I think. I translated the two first books of Daughter of Evil on a blog, in french, and the translation of snack time "L'heure du goûter" is, in my point of view, better than the translation of tea time "l'heure du thé" because the last one is really british connotated for us frenchies. And the french royalty wasn't really fond of tea. 

        Loading editor
    • That's a good perspective to add, but not sure if it's clinching. After all, the time in the book is at 3, not 4, so mothy might not be drawing on the French meal ritual that you're referring to any more than the British tea time one (as pointed out he may have merged some aspects of both cultures.) And while "snack time" does not have as childish a meaning as in English and refers to an actual meal time, this is about an English translation of the phrase, not a French one, which doesn't have that connotation. 

      So yes > > but I suppose snack time is more fine in light of that.

        Loading editor
    • Mostly what Octo said. The term "snack time" (based on what you've said) has a meaning in French that it doesn't in English, and so while that's perfect for your translation it's not perfect for ours. IMO, "tea time" is the closest equivalent term in English, even if sounds too British. Actual tea is not required as it's just a term for a meal time.

        Loading editor
    • Here the little Frenchie again !

      As you want for your translation, that's alright for me. I just wanted to inform you of that. (And that's true that I totaly forget the 3 o clock thing...). Well, anyway, thanks for answering me. 

        Loading editor
    • Thank you, it's always good to have other perspectives on the translation things. ^ ^

      If there are no more last minute perspectives to add I'm going to start changing the lines.

        Loading editor
    • So I did a bit of research, and...

      Trauben is literally German plural for "grape." I wonder if it's trauben fruit or just grapes, in which case it'd just be "trauben."

        Loading editor
    • I knew this was the translation but didn't question how grammatically awkward "grapes fruit" was ;w; Is it possible that "trauben" in actual German is a plural but in Evillious is a singular? Depending on how it's used in the Japanese?

        Loading editor
    • 67.65.250.33 wrote:

      Trauben is literally German plural for "grape." I wonder if it's trauben fruit or just grapes, in which case it'd just be "trauben."

      Well, yeah. It's used in the creation of wine after all. XD A similar thing has been speculated about pome/pomme fruit and the French term.

      Octofan wrote:
      Is it possible that "trauben" in actual German is a plural but in Evillious is a singular? Depending on how it's used in the Japanese?

      The picture of trauben is a cluster of grapes in the fanbook and Ichika's done something similar for her manga. There's never an acknowledgement of it being a foreign language and we're never given a single "grape" as a talking point so it could go either way imo.

        Loading editor
    • This is a minor thing, and I don't know if anyone would care enough about the difference to go through fixing it, but るりらるりらと響く唄 isn't "Lu Li La, Lu Li La, The Resounding Song", it's "The Song That Resounds With Lu Li La, Lu Li La".

      The と is a semi-quotation particle, so it's "resounds with lu li la" and then the way it's arranged with 唄 the whole thing is attributive.

      Only mentioning it because "The Resounding Song" makes it sound like the audio quality of the song is what's important when really it's just indicating that it's talking about the song that goes "Lu Li La" (ie the Clockwork Lullaby).

        Loading editor
    • 146.113.79.217 wrote:

      Only mentioning it because "The Resounding Song" makes it sound like the audio quality of the song is what's important when really it's just indicating that it's talking about the song that goes "Lu Li La" (ie the Clockwork Lullaby).

      I've never gotten this impression, personally. The current title got that meaning across just fine for me.

        Loading editor
    • I don't think the current title actually conveys the same meaning. Calling something "the resounding song" is different from (poetically) saying "this song contains these particular lyrics". The title we're using has an extra connotation that the original title doesn't have, that the song resounds, when really all it's saying is that the song goes "lu li la". It's not that important for plot details, but it is an actual distinction.

        Loading editor
    • Lu li la lu li la sounds/goes the resouding song would be more acurate

        Loading editor
    • No it wouldn't. I just got through explaining why it means "The Song That Resounds With Lu Li La, Lu Li La". The song isn't resounding in general.

      るりらるりらと響く means "to resound with Lu Li La", or in other words, "Lu Li La" is the sound that's resounding. Tacking 唄 on the end makes the whole thing attributive. Ergo, the song resounds with the words Lu Li La.

      The sentence that you're suggesting implies the song resounds in general, and just happens to have the lyrics of Lu Li La. Which is not the meaning.

        Loading editor
    • good point

        Loading editor
    • idk guys as someone who doesn't know Japanese, my preference is purely aesthetic, and I prefer the current one. It simply sounds [pun not intended] better; and I don't see a huge difference either

        Loading editor
    • The difference doesn't have to be huge to be a significant change in how the title is read. Like has been already said, it's not a huge plot-changing detail but it is saying something that the original title doesn't say.

      And if we made choices by aesthetic preference over accuracy we would still have "Kachess". 

        Loading editor
    • How about "The Song Resounding Lu Li La, Lu Li La"?

        Loading editor
    • Sounds perf

        Loading editor
    • I'm on board with Emuei's suggested name.

        Loading editor
    • I suppose it fits precedent of going with the shortest possible interpretation. 0o0/

        Loading editor
    • I'd prefer "The Song that Resounds "Lu Li La, Lu Li La"" with or without quotations if we're going that route but I'm fine with either.

        Loading editor
    • There's no need to add quotations when there aren't any in the actual title.  と is not the equivalent to quotation marks, especially since the verb is about sound and not reciting specific words.

        Loading editor
    • I stated it was my preference, not a need. Again, I'm fine with Emuei's suggestion, regardless.

        Loading editor
    • I honestly think there's no need to change it at all. It's fine this way.

        Loading editor
    • I'll vote for Servy's suggestion, no quotations.

        Loading editor
    • I would first like to ask how シュブルク, the name of the newspaper company Hanne works at, was translated by the wiki into "Shuburke", and then move to suggest respelling it to look more German. Even ignoring that it does not look like a German word as it is I look at the name and think I'm supposed to pronounce it "shuh-burk-eh" rather than "shoo-berk" which is closer to the kana. German words do not have silent e's in them.

      There is at least some small precedent for spelling that arrangement of syllables as schburg (the name Löschburg here and its translation レ―シュブルク here). I'm not saying that's what we should do but that might give us something to work with if it could conceivably end in a "burg"?

        Loading editor
    • I'll admit to reading it as Shuh-burr-key since I wasn't aware on how the name was to be read

        Loading editor
    • 146.113.65.245 wrote:
      Snip.

      Your example and suggestion was brought up by me and Maxus way back when the term first cropped up (among other possibilities). It simply wasn't the one that ended up sticking. 

      If we are going with something more German, I'm fine with Shuburg.

        Loading editor
    • As it's German I'd still keep the c in, as "Schuburg"--I don't think I've ever seen a plain "sh" in the language. But I'm fine with the inclusion of the u.

        Loading editor
    • Schuburg sounds okay

        Loading editor
    • Schuburg looks fine to me

        Loading editor
    • I'm okay with Schuburg.

        Loading editor
    • I actually prefer Shuburg instead of Schuburg, because the sch in English makes an "s" sound followed by a "ch" sound, like in the word scholar. If the target is a word pronounced more like Shoo-berk, then leaving out the c –at least in English– would be more accurate.

        Loading editor
    • Astrophysics Person wrote: I actually prefer Shuburg instead of Schuburg, because the sch in English makes an "s" sound followed by a "ch" sound, like in the word scholar. If the target is a word pronounced more like Shoo-berk, then leaving out the c –at least in English– would be more accurate.

      Maybe you and I are pronouncing it differently or I'm just tired enough that that my brain has forgot how to make English phonetics right, but I pronounce the 'sch' in scholar very different from the 'sch' in Schubert, which for all intents and purposes is a similar word to 'schuburg'.

      Edit: just thought of this but if I were to pronounce the 'sch' in Shubert, and the potential Shuberg as the way the word scholar is pronounced, the closest I could get would be Scoobert -I.e Scoobert-Doo, otherwise known as Scooby-Doo- this is mostly because the 'h' in scholar is not very pronounced as far as a 'ch' sound is concerned, therefore leading to a pronunciation closer to s-collar, which isn't really an accurate way to describe it, but it's 4:10am and I'm trying lol

        Loading editor
    • The point isn't what it's pronounced as in English--the conversation was started because the name didn't look like a German word.

      In Germany the "sh" sound is spelled "sch". I have never seen a single case of a "sh" without a c in the middle of it in the language. It might be pronounced as "s ch" in English but this is not an English word. That argument is like saying we should spell a French word from Levianta into something that looks more English.

        Loading editor
    • --Was in a hurry so I didn't have time to provide an appropriate example but that'd be like saying we should spell "Milanais" as "Milanay" because in English the "ais" would be pronounced as "ays", despite the fact that it's a French word.

        Loading editor
    • Okay, I see your point. Schuburg is fine by me.

        Loading editor
    • Typo on my part. A c should've been in there like in the original thread. A majority looks to be in favor of it regardless so I'll give it a pass.

        Loading editor
    • On the topic set beforehand, for "Barisol's Child is an Only Child", how does "Bariizooru" become "Barisol"? I'm not opposed to the name, but I'm just curious. 

      On another note, I did find the word "Barisal" and it's pronounced similar, and it's one of the seven administrative divisions of Bangladesh. However, this could be one of those times where a name change is trivial at best, but I just wanted to point that out.

        Loading editor
    • Why on earth is アスマウス (asumausu) written as A Smouse? Why is there a space in there?

      Basically, I move it be changed to Asmouse. I...honestly can't see any reason for it to be written the way it is now. If it were ア=スマウス that would be different, but. Well. It's not.

      Could also be Asmouth or some variation as well. I'm not averse to changing the spelling entirely I'm just a little flabbergasted the Ly's hometown has been spelled as "A Smouse" as though a "smouse" is some kind of creature that the city is known for.

      Not to be a jerk.

        Loading editor
    • MrMatthewz wrote:
      On the topic set beforehand, for "Barisol's Child is an Only Child", how does "Bariizooru" become "Barisol"? I'm not opposed to the name, but I'm just curious. 

      On another note, I did find the word "Barisal" and it's pronounced similar, and it's one of the seven administrative divisions of Bangladesh. However, this could be one of those times where a name change is trivial at best, but I just wanted to point that out.

      It ended up Barisol because that was the closest anyone could come up with.

        Loading editor
    • If there doesn't seem to be any reason to keep it A Smouse, I also move that it become Asmouse. Maybe it was supposed to be a reference to Asmodean. 

        Loading editor
    • As far as reasons go, I don't see the recent Survival PV keeping the spelling separate. Regardless of the original album transcription's accuracy, we've typically gone with updated spellings barring some other reason. I have no issue with any change.

        Loading editor
    • Fixed any articles mentioning it though. Out of curiousity, is there a particle reason Asmouse isn't on the Evillious Term List, or is that an oversight?

        Loading editor
    • Dear god I almost wish I wasn't an anon so I could fix my typos *particular

        Loading editor
    • You are welcome to make an account, do you need a link?

        Loading editor
    • Nah, I know how to make an account, I just don't want to. Thanks though.

        Loading editor
    • This might sound like a non-issue for such a minor character but what are the reasons for calling Gallerian's butler Rennert? A quick google of レナート pulls up many many examples of it being a translation of the name "Renato". I haven't found a single example of it being Rennert.

        Loading editor
    • --Save of course for "Rennert International" which is the name of a company and not a person, I mean.

        Loading editor
    • Lennart is a name

        Loading editor
    • A name in general or a name that レナート translates to?

      Because my whole point is that "Rennert" has only ever been a translation of "Renaato" when it's a place or company name, and that if you go on Japanese wikipedia pages for people with that name it's almost always "Renato". Ergo, the name with the most common usage is more likely to be the intended meaning.

      Do you happen to have any examples for Lennart or are you just fishing for alternatives?

        Loading editor
    •   Loading editor
    • Rennert International is named after César Rennert so it's definitely not just a company name. Regardless, I don't agree that most frequent in searches is necessarily most likely intended. I don't mind either Lennart or Rennert.

        Loading editor
    • Just a question--レミー is from a country based on France, yes? So why "Lemy" and not, say, "Rémy"? I'm just curious as to if there's a source on it or an example I've overlooked.

        Loading editor
    • The PV translates his name to lemy

        Loading editor
    • Ah, that's right, thank you. My bad.

        Loading editor
    • Suggestion that 神の双子, the phrase used to refer to Hansel and Gretel and other children involved in the Ma Project, stop being translated as "Twin Gods" and instead be translated as "Twins of God". First, because "Twin" is not being used as a qualifier of "God" but rather "God" is being used as a qualifier of "Twin", and second because 神の子, a term so similar I'm certain it's a reference, refers to Jesus Christ (eg, "Son of God").

      It's been established that Hansel and Gretel are not actually gods themselves, so keeping it as "Twin Gods" seems silly to me.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with the suggestion. Plus Twin Gods sounds like its referring to L&B. So yay for Twins of God

        Loading editor
    • I understand changing it for hansel and gretel after they escape project ma, but I thought the point of project ma was to have L&B be reborn as twin babies? That would mean the resulting twins would really just be the twin gods. That didn't happen obviously but they didn't know that at the time of project ma.

        Loading editor
    • Based on what we know Project Ma wasn't about birthing Levia and Behemo as babies it was about birthing twin babies that Levia and Behemo could use as new vessels for their souls. 

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, I agree with the suggestion given all that we know here.

        Loading editor
    • Alright that's fair, that was the only possible problem I saw with the new translation so it's got my support.

        Loading editor
    • I support the new translation.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with the new translation.

        Loading editor
    • My only problem with it is "Twins of God" makes it sound like a singular god, which Levia and Behemo aren't. But I don't really have a suggestion as to how to make it plural and not sound awkward.

        Loading editor
    • Actually at the time the name was used they WERE the twins of one god, singular--"Levia-Behemo", the dragon god. The two heads were recognized as two different souls, which would require two different bodies as vessels, but they're referred to as one being while in their dragon form (hence squashing their names together like that).

      Does that makes it less awkward?

        Loading editor
    • How about God Twins?

        Loading editor
    • That would at least be a more accurate translation of the term than "Twin Gods" but it does obscure the reference to Jesus I was talking about (considering all the other biblical references in OSS it just seems appropriate imo).

      Honestly though as long as it's changed to something it can actually mean I don't personally mind what wording choice is picked. "Twins of God", "God Twins", "Divine Twins", etc.

        Loading editor
    • It appears mothy gave the official translation of Gobanme no Pierrot as "the fifth clown" long ago

        Loading editor
    • Could you perhaps provide context for your statements on "official" translations instead of making blanket claims? (And perhaps list your approval or disapproval of the current topic at hand.)

        Loading editor
    • Well yeah sure "The Twins of God" sounds fine


      but as for the translation of fifth, i took the official image from the kagamination website, the first album the song was released on and it includes the official english translations by the producers. The song is fifth on disc 1.
      Kagamination axflyer