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  • NOTE: This thread is a repost of the original thread closed on December 9, 2014. Please see the first iteration to view past discussions.

    This thread is for the discussion of the above name light novel and all changes related to the wiki in these first few weeks should first be brought forward, debated, and decided upon here. Feel free to also use this to discuss theories, give praises,  or vent frustrations about the light novel or its contents.

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    • Topics to carry over:

      • So far, looks like there are no dissenters on us translating the Japanese kanji term used for "Christmas" more literally as "Nativity Festival".
      • We still seem to be undecided on whether the Venom Sword is a safe assumption or not. Since the next installment of the short story comes out tomorrow, might as well wait it out and see what new info we get.
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    • I'm going to take first reply in this new thread and bring up the fact that we now have a design for Gatt. It's in chibi form but > >

      I think we can all agree that the only reason Gatt doesn't have an article is because he's got no image, but now that we do have a design for him I wanted to ask, is it reasonable for us to make use of a chibi design from a non-canon (although still using canon things) manga and subsequently give him his article?

      Gattexample

      For reference, here is what his infobox avatar would look like

      Or do we cross our fingers and hope that this design or another one comes up soon in more explicitly canon material?
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    • I think the example image I made could work, if we use it. His character has ample information to warrant an article and he's portrayed himself as a major supporting character, at the very least.

      I am not so sure about the image though. It isn't clear whether Tamara is just making her own design or she was asked/given one in advance to base her design off of (possibly for a future release). Back in Waltz, she kept a vague silhouette design for Julia since she never got an official one. Here, she went full throttle on showing Gatt from waist up, which might be signficant.

      There's also the fact we've used more cartoony illustrations before (see Sickle). I didn't approve of that one either, but it's not like we haven't reached similar decisions in the past.

      Ultimately, I think I'm neutral on the whole thing.

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    • I'm all for Gatt's non-canon avatar.

      He's pretty imporant and the only thing keeping him on the List of Minor Characters is his lack of an avatar.

      (Well that, and he's adorable)

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    • Personally, I have no problems with Gatt's chibi avatar. I don't find it a big deal for not being a "canon" image and considering how Tamara kept things vague last time and chose not to this time might suggest she was hinted on some designs. Besides it was manga was written with Mothy wasn't it? I say yes.

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    • The part of me that write Appearance boxes is yelling "No!" loudly while the other portions agree to use the image.

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    • |ㅇ ㅇ)b

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    • I'm for Gatt's chibi to be used as an avatar as well.

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    • I'm all for it.

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    • I don't see any dissents so I'll assume we've reached consensus and give this a pass. Gatt will have an article posted using the above example image. Since you brought up the topic, I'll have you handle constructing the article in your sandbox, Octo.

      His history shouldn't need much editing, but his other sections will have to be written out and gallery will have to be included.

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    • More info from the second part of the short story:

      • The man is Kaidor Blankenheim, and the head (cleaned of blood) that he carries was “Bruno Marlon” in life. The head had blue hair too.
      • Seventh Magician recalls a news report about this “Kaidor Blankenheim” a long time ago. He fled after killing his wife and was formally expelled from the Blankenheim family.
      • Bruno Marlon was certainly the name of the Freesis Foundation leader Shaw Freesis’ escort.
      • When asked about abandoning his old life, Kaidor reluctantly admits that before he left, he had entrusted his son to his younger brother, Karl. The child is growing up with his same face it seems. If he’s arrested as is, it will gain unwarranted public attention (they’ll realize they’re parent and child).
      • Seventh Magician removes the Venom Sword from its sheath and uses its power to change Kaidor’s face to Bruno’s.
      • Later on, another asked Magician for her “miracle”; Mayrana Blossom, the one known as Fourth Shadow.

      I don't think Mayrana's article receiving a name change is something that will be debated. I'll rename the article now.

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    • Heh, her surname is "Blossom" and she died being turned into a flower. See what you did there, Mothy.

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    • So...this quite a of information. Thoughts:

      -I...did not expect somthing like that with Bruno. It certinetly recontextulizes what we know about him. Guess this is more setup for Pierrot to jump on to.

      -Guess this explains how Mayrana looks just like Julia. Good to see some expansion on her.

      -Are we going to see the previous Eighth Sniper? I hope we do.

      -Looks like this is bridgeing the dots between Gift and Pierrot. Somethings telling me Pierrot is going to be busy.

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    • It'll be interesting to see if Mayrana's original appearance is explained. Having a surname like Blossom makes me think of other flowery surnames like Rindo Blum and Riliane Roses. It does make me wonder though if Magician joined post-Lioness Burning Incident and Julia/Mayrana used the sword to make her look like Elluka.

      This seems to be more geared toward setting up backstory for characters, though I'm not yet seeing the purpose to making Bruno (presumably) Caspar's real dad. Seems extraneous to me. There are many more important questions that remain unanswered in the novel and this wasn't one of them.

      Hopefully, we'll get a little bit of narration geared toward Mayrana and who she is (or was) and get more context to her becoming Julia.

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    • GattConceptTamara
      Well, Tamara's spoken up and clarified that her design for Gatt is completely hers ("fake") and not official. She looks forward to possibly seeing him in the next novel. I am not sure if this changes anyone's opinion on the matter. Personally, it doesn't change mine.

      The illustration she provided would be appropriate concept art imo, should we continue to go forward with making an article for him.

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    • I think we should use it, atleast for now. Until his real face pops up. I mean we used a doujinshi cap for carlos for a long time becuse it was the best we had. Maybe the illustrator for the pierrot novel adopts it. Maybe mothy declares it canon because he can

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    • That doujinshi cap for Carlos was used when the wiki was making pages for extremely minor characters, though, and way before many of our current policies for quality control. I'm not saying we shouldn't use this non-canon design for him, but I don't think we should use that as a precedent for this case.

      I'm in the camp of "It's Gatt's design in a work affiliated with mothy and Evillious, canon design or not," and that it's okay to use it as long as we change it when a canon design is released. > >; On another note, can we use the concept art for an avatar instead so we don't have a chibi as his avi?

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    • Gatt. Heh. Gatt getting an article would still be dandy and whatnot, yes. Well it was a good try, chibi.............but I second Octo's proposal on using the concept art for an infobox. There it's done. I am leaving now. ;u;

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    • As an aside, does everyone feel it's safe to assume Kaidor's kid he gave to Karl was Caspar? Caspar's not even mentioned to have any siblings, he's the only other major KAITO Blankenheim we know of, and it would fit the implication Seventh Magician makes about Kaidor trying to suddenly want to be buddies with Pere Noel.

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    • Gatt's concept art design is fine. Characters like Arth also have concept designs as their infobox image.

      It's very safe to assume the kid is Caspar. It would be absurd for mothy to make a plot point like this about an as-yet-unrevealed character.

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    • Given that Gatt is most definetly going to be in Pierrot, I thinks its safe to use this image as a placeholder until his offcial design is unvieled.

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    • If no one else disagrees, then we'll move forward with giving him an article once we finish checking and polishing it.

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    • A sexy picture of Gatt I must say :-3

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    • Hm. This is bringing back something from a few posts up, but if "Blossom" was a reference to two Rins, and the fourth member was blonde...

      Also, "The Flower" makes some sense now.

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    • two Rins? if SNS becomes canon I am going to lose it, lol

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    • I thought it was non-canon

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    • I'd heard that, too, but if the member was called "The Flower", and Mayrana is "Mayrana Blossom" and is called "the flower of the plateau"... it sounds like foreshadowing.

      Particularly if she is blonde and connected to Rindo and Riliane.

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    • On a sidenote, Gackpo being hot. -Drools-

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    • Can we keep replies on topic for the thread please?

      Seems like the Gift bonus story is going to answer the question of whether Mayrana is a Meiko, a Rin, something else, or no Vocaloid at all, so we can wait for a bit until the next part comes out. I think since she's likely about to have her face changed by Seventh, we'll find she's not a Meiko as we thought.

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    • yes

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    • Or maybe she's an utau! 

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    • From what I posted yesterday, here is what we got:

      • Santa Claus found Mayrana in the Beelzenian Empire and took her in as an apprentice.
      • Almost all the magic clans were collected in the Magic Kingdom Levianta and died out in the wake of the Levianta Catastrophe, so people with Mayran's talent are a rare breed.
      • When Seventh first met Mayrana, she was already called "Fourth Shadow", despite only her and Santa being members of Pere Noel at the time.
      • Mayrana chose the number four due to her worship of the witch, Meta Salmhofer, who was the fourth member of Apocalypse.
      • Mayrana's in a BAD mood when meeting with Seventh. Mayrana is apparently jealous that Santa gave Seventh a vessel of sin and not her (since she believes she wouldn't need their further power).
      • Mayrana makes sure to remind her that that power isn't her own and she shouldn't be so smug about it.
      • Mayrana idolized Santa Claus and, to Seventh, it looked abnormal. She wore the same clothes and makeup as her and even ate the same meals from the menu.
      • Apparently Irina's also gotten a little bit bothered by this so she sent Mayrana to the faraway land of Merrigod.
      • And so now Mayrana wishes to change her face. Even without being told, Seventh knows whose face she wants.
      • Mayrana's face gets changed but she has an extreme meltdown at Seventh while examining herself in the mirror, since Seventh took her word to the letter and made the face "similar" but not "the same" as Santa Claus. Mayrana goes into the extreme details of what's different.
      • Of course, Seventh can only use this power once unless she makes a contract with the demon. So she's stuck this way.
      • Returning to the present (whenever that is), Seventh relates that she hears Mayrana has now become mayor of Calgaround and has even started taking Santa Claus' name as her own.
      • She's also heard rumors that she's come in contact with the "Sleep Princess". The reason is clear. She still wants a vessel of sin.
      • Mayrana's about to close shop when a knock comes to the door. She's surprised to see it's Sixth Venom, Gatt Colomb.

      It's a nice to see this story did end up tying together quite a few plot lines. And now we've definitely established Mayrana as being ridiculously fanatical to Julia. I wonder whether her worship of Meta is due to her veneration of Julia too.

      And I'm definitely loving Seventh. She's got that edge to her words Where even when she's sounding polite and "mystical" in her conduct, she can have a lot of undertones.

      I'm curious why Gatt's visiting her. I wouldn't think it'd be for a face change but perhaps he's simply interested in the sword or has some other motivation. Either way, we'll hopefully get his backstory too.

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    • Interesting back story, but I find Mayrana's admiration for Irina quite creepy...>.<

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    • Mayrana's obsessed with Julia just went from weird to downright unsettling. 0_0

      • Mayrana's face gets changed but she has an extreme meltdown at Seventh while examining herself in the mirror, since Seventh took her word to the letter and made the face "similar" but not "the same" as Santa Claus. Mayrana goes into the extreme details of what's different.
      • Of course, Seventh can only use this power once unless she makes a contract with the demon. So she's stuck this way.

      Does this mean to say that the Venom Sword can only make your face similar to the desired appearance? I don't really get what the second bullet means in relation to the first one.

      Also, I think Seventh Magician also follows Pere Noel's Christmas theme, since she performs "Christmas miracles". Hehe. (Can that be added to the trivia of the Pere Noel page?)

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    • The full translation's up now, but it's essentially that the Venom Sword's power can only be used once per individual unless you allow yourself to be "swayed" (contracted) to the demon. So in essence, while Carlos was under the impression his face could be changed back, it apparently couldn't have unless the demon and him worked something out.

      Same with Mayrana. She wanted a specific face and Magician could've easily given it to her, but she wanted to spite Mayrana so gave her face with slight differentiations that only Mayrana would fly off the handle about, which Magician finds amusing and fitting for the jealous Julia fanatic. Of course, she would never tell Mayrana this; she'd much rather play to her haughty personality and admit how "inferior" she is and so must've messsed up.

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    • Dang, Seventh Magician's snark is on an entirely different level. Move over Allen, there's a new queen of sarcasm. 

      But seriously. I think Mayrana's part of Irina's plan to somehow confront Elluka, since she has 1) a body that heals at an advanced pace and 2) a loyal disciple, the Gumillia to her Elluka.

      Anyway, is it possible to use the buildings from the Flower of the Plateau PV for the Calgaround page?

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    • It sounds like the user of the sword can actually resculpt a face to a certain extent, rather than copying and pasting it from someone else's--that is, Seventh probably has a bit of artistic talent to be able to make faces identical to other people's, and Bruno's head wasn't strictly necessary except as a reference for her. 

      I didn't even think of the miracles thing 8O Not entirely sure how intentional it would be but. o o

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    • From my understanding, you need to know the person's face (ie, be able to imagine it) for the Demon of Lust to properly change the face, but you are free to make adjustments as desired. So it's clear now that it doesn't necessarily have to be another person's face.

      I'm not sure how safe I feel assuming a "christmas miracles" thing but it's definitel worth considering. However, neither Gatt nor Caspar seem to have any obvious Christmas schtick tied to them so far so I wouldn't be surprised if Magician's was just coincidence.

      Well the problem with Mayrana being part of Irina's plan would be she's now dead and not easily replacable. Idk if Julia planned to confront Elluka with her, but she definitely considered Mayrana a useful (if a bit too enthusiastic) a pawn.

      Idk if that's a good image, GT. We barely see a two or three buildings there and it looks really small and confined to have as a title image imo. I remember trying to crop this way back when the page was first going up too so I am real disappointed by that.

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    • Servy, can the term used for "miracle" only be translated as such? If it is, I think it's more likely mothy made an intentional "Christmas miracle" illusion. (Plus points: the story takes place during Evillious Christmas.)

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    • One part does at least. The rest are flashbacks to different periods of time, no specification on the season.

      Anyhow, the term 奇跡 dictionary-wise means a wonder, miracle, or marvel, as in, "Wow, that pyramid's real marvel of the world," or, "His survival is nothing short of a miracle." Very rarely do any words mean just one thing in a language, unless it's some super specific, culturally unique term imo.

      Either way, I am hopeful that Magician's true name will be revealed by the end. We got one more part to go and we've learned a lot about her character through her interactions with Kaidor and Mayrana.

      Also, is it safe to assume Mayrana's Beelzenian? She has brown hair on her head (which so far, all known chars affected by the V Sword have had the same hair before and after the face change) and is from Beelzenia originally. Thoughts?

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    • Yeah, I think it's safe to assume that. 

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    • Well it did show a picture of Germaine as a reference to Beelzenian culture so yeah, and I'm wondering how the sam hill was there an original Magician when Elluka got Gumilia to kill Lemy yo, it just doesn't makes sense.

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    • It's called character either dies beforehand or has a fake running around concurrently. Y'know, like someone else in that era.

      Also, the Germaine image on the Beelzenia page is us using it as an example for the Beelzenian race. That isn't THE official image representative of all Beelzenians.

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    • Oh yeah, I've had always wondered why the 4th never appeared in Fifth Pierrot, and as for the Beelzenian's I apologize but you got the point of what saying right?

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    • I think it's safe to assume she is Beelzenian. All the indicators point to her being so, On the other hand, we did have that Ney SNAFU with apparently she is a Marlon even though indication is she is Lucifenian but let's ignore that for now. 

      I wanted to ask about the whole issue of the face being permanent, apparently, unless making a contract with the demon? But in the Conchita novel didn't AB-CIR tell Carlos that changing your face wasn't permanent? > >;

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    • I pointed that out too, so I assume AB lied to Carlos to keep hi motivated with the whole deal. Telling him "yeah, you're going to do this thing, btw I can't change your face back" doesn't help. At least he has incentive to do the job if he's told his face can be returned to normal.

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    • Octofan wrote: I think it's safe to assume she is Beelzenian. All the indicators point to her being so, On the other hand, we did have that Ney SNAFU with apparently she is a Marlon even though indication is she is Lucifenian but let's ignore that for now. 

      I thought Ney got her traits form Arth

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    • We've been over this. Fanbooks refer to her as Marlon despite both her parents being Lucifenian (one pureblood), which is a weird anomoly since Germaine is labeled as Beelzenian despite growing up Lucifenian so it can't be because Ney grew up in Marlon for most of her life.

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    • Quick question: Is it ever stated that Elluka felt a demonic presence while near Margarita?

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    • Nope. It's even explicitly pointed out that Elluka couldn't find any hint that a vessel of sin was in the Blankenheim home when she went touring it with Margarita. She was at a complete loss on that count.

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    • Servant of Evillious wrote: We've been over this. Fanbooks refer to her as Marlon despite both her parents being Lucifenian (one pureblood), which is a weird anomoly since Germaine is labeled as Beelzenian despite growing up Lucifenian so it can't be because Ney grew up in Marlon for most of her life.

      I meant ethnicity not nationality, I was born and raised on the US but I am still at least 1/8 Italian, I am assuming Ney is ethnicity Lucifinian but nationality Marlon, was she born in the Kingdom of Marlon?

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    • Alexiel Lucifen
      Alexiel Lucifen removed this reply because:
      I hit edit and got brought to quote...
      00:26, December 19, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • She was born in Marlon but her nationality is listed as Kingdom of Lucifenia in the schedule book. She's still labeled as racially Marlon, contrasting Germaine who is said to be racially Beelzenian while also listed as nationally Lucifenian.

      It's just an odd anomoly no matter how you cut it that doesn't match up with the other characters' races/ethnicities.

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    • could it be a typo?

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    • If so, it's a consistent one for it's carried over into both the fanbook and the schedule book, and those had the fanbook's "NO DATE" typos corrected to "NO DATA" in the latter's release.

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    • then maybe it hasn't been seen yet? idk. (the wiki is just now letting me reply)

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    • Question, how was Margarita able to make Dr. Puerrick think that none of her medical supplies were poisonous? Did she hide the ingredients for Gift somewhere?

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    • Because none of them were poisonous. Somehow or other, Margarita managed to create Gift seemingly without greeonian plateau roses or any other poisonous materials from La Bula.

      This goes on my list of unexplained mysteries the novel leaves us right under, "How the bloody hell did she turn a poison intil a viral, self-sustaining epidemic?"

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    • Servant of Evillious wrote:
      Because none of them were poisonous. Somehow or other, Margarita managed to create Gift seemingly without greeonian plateau roses or any other poisonous materials from La Bula.

      This goes on my list of unexplained mysteries the novel leaves us right under, "How the bloody hell did she turn a poison intil a viral, self-sustaining epidemic?"

      Clever woman, she must have done something to the gift...maybe the blood that was mentioned in the novel?

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    • That was Mayrana. The blood was used to mask the poison in the decomposing body. Margarita just perfected the balance so the blood didn't dilute the poison itself.

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    • So you're saying that she must have used a non-poisonous substitute for greeonian plateau roses?

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    • That or she managed to acquire more poisonous supplies after Puerick already checked her stuff during the first investigation. She was being watched for a time though so when she'd have such an opportunity to acquire more supplies when the only pharmacy in town was La Bula is beyond me.

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    • As I mentioned earlier; Clever Woman.

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    • Well Margarita was very knowledgable about medicine and a lot of how it works so I wouldn't be surprised if she knew what non-poisonous ingredients could be mixed together to make something that could be lethal to humans. 

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    • And Dr. Puerick Rogze is an expert on medicine and would very much know what those ingredients would be.

      You can't make a poison without something poisonous; there has to be a certain level of toxicity to any chemical substance being used in the formulation of a poison.  That or you increase the amount administered into the body, which we know is the opposite of Gift's purpose and effects as it's refined.

      Now every substance in the world as we know it today has some degree of toxicity, even the water we drink and air we breath. Even so, it's a pretty big stretch for my suspension of disbelief that Margarita can manage to not only discover some way to get non-toxic medicinal materials to become a heavily toxic poison (when said formula's main ingredient is already a heavily toxic plant she had no access too), but also manages to fool the expert on the subject.

      That's not even touching the whole epidemic debacle.

      Edit: The only explanation I can imagine is that it has to do with Eve and her magic, possibly the mysterious animal blood she used itself since even Puerick couldn't identify it.

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    • What we got for the last part of the email story:

      • Gatt came on Santa’s orders to take the Venom Sword; Magician realizes this means she’s been deemed obsolete now for the “President” and that he was sent to kill her.
      • Gatt’s talking to her about this first because he doesn’t want to do the deed and is giving her a day to either escape or accept her fate.
      • Santa gave Gatt the means to kill Magician, regardless of whether she tries contracting with the demon to defend herself or not: a golden dagger is on his waist.
      • Magician chooses to make a break for it this wonderful, snowy season. She knows she can change her face even if they pursue her. 

      We don’t get her name and the story ends with her making the escape. Confirmation on Irina indeed nabbing the Golden Key like implied in DoF. Seems Magician also lives at least for a little while longer.

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    • Golden Key? where did that come from?

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    • Magician also makes another important reference: Gatt is now the guy doing assassination missions since Fifth Pierrot is dead.

      Since all the context clues and references put this around EC 608 (this part clarifying Julia's presidential election is coming up) and Lemy is only referenced as being an orphan Julia's adopted for publicity reasons, this is apparetly a different Pierrot.

      In that case, Lemy didn't become Pierrot until some time in EC 609.

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    • So wait did Lemy kill Rin's maneger and then kidnapp her or not?

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    • This makes for a lot of replacements in Pere Noel. I mean, Kaidor's possibly replacing Caspar, someone's gotta take over Margarita and Mayrana's position, Lemy replacing the old Pierrot, and Elluka replacing the current Magician. Hmm.

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    • I hope Rin Chan takes Mayrana's position

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    • I think she will, given the fact that she disappeared from the public eye, which is a possible foreshadowing of her joining Pere Noel. Although it could be another red herring, as Servy said...

      On a side note, is it ever implied that Dashaw had feelings for Hanne? Because the incest is just a little unsettling.

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    • Well I really want her to be a central part of Lemy's story, It would be really boring we just got an entire novel about a fifteen year old running around stabbing people.

      Yeah I thought so too, but then again it isn't the real Hanne.

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    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      I hope Rin Chan takes Mayrana's position

      I can't imagine a lot that a lip-syncing singer can do. The media's already going to be all over her regarding the "scandal" and subsequent kidnapping. Not like she can go undercover much either without the sword (she was spotted in Aceid after just getting back after all). I doubt Julia wants the attention.

      We also have to keep in mind that positions may be left vacant. After all, Gatt's being left to assassination missions atm. It's possible mothy will write that Julia can't find such a simple replacement for Mayrana. Bruno only became an option after Caspar was made a member anyhow, based on this story.

      I'd like to see Rin incorporated into Pere Noel, but I feel she's going to be central to Lemy's character arc specifically. When you come across your physical (if not biological) twin and then kidnap her, there has to be quite the backstory to that.

      GreekTelepath wrote:

      On a side note, is it ever implied that Dashaw had feelings for Hanne? Because the incest is just a little unsettling.

      You're assuming Dashaw wasn't aware that Hanne is actually Elluka. I think it's safe to assume his feelings weren't platonic (given the narration mentions being unable to return them) but what Dashaw might've been fully aware Hanne was Elluka.

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    • Oh, alright then. Having feelings for your relative... Just not right. How could he have known, though? Did Shaw tell him?

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    • I hope they're not twins, not just because I'd like mothy to write a rin/len love story but also becuase that would just feel to star warsy and cheesy. He already pulled the "long lost twin" card once.

      Remeber how Elluka speficaly said that she looked exactly like Riliane and not Gretel, who came before Riliane. Coincidence? I think not.

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    • It's never said that only Shaw was are of Hanne's true identity. Considering Dashaw was the heir, I think it's completely possible he was either there when Elluka asked or made aware some time after. Or maybe he just think's she's a hot niece. Who knows.

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    • Seing how Dashaw was Shaw's successor in the case of Shaw's death, it's possible he let him in on the secret, in case Elluka had to remain undercover after his death, so Dashaw could help them. Aware she wasn't family, he probably fell for her.

      If he wasn't aware, then perhaps it a sort of familial love/loyalty that Elluka couldn't reciprocate since she was not actually related to him.

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    • Can I point out that if Magician made a break for it with the sword, then now we know how it fell out of Pere Noel's hands to end up with Nyoze Octo?

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    • 67.67.8.132 wrote:
      Can I point out that if Magician made a break for it with the sword, then now we know how it fell out of Pere Noel's hands to end up with Nyoze Octo?

      Not really. All we know is she made a break for it. The vessel could easily show up again in Pierrot, or even in the Tailor era before ending up in Nyoze's hands.

      Neither is there anything corraborating the idea that Magician kept the sword and it never ended up back in Pere Noel's possession at any point (though I doubt it would, honestly).

      There was never an explanation given for how Gast's dad allegedly ended up with the sword when AB-CIR had it 100+ years prior. I don't think we can say for sure what explanation we are given until we pass through the tales telling the time in-between.

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    • Two quick questions:

      1) Do you feel we should be making a character section for this unknown Fifth Pierrot and assume Lemy became Pierrot some time in 609 (ie, by the time he kidnapped Rin Chan/killed five prostitutes in October/November)?

      2) Should we assume at this point that Gatt is a Lucifenian soldier? He works directly for Julia/the "President" and is referenced as an officer in Lucifenia rather casually without mention of him being from a different country's miltiary or anything.

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    • Yes to both.

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    • Yes to both as well~

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    • Ye

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    • I don't know.

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    • Yes.

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    • 1.) Yes.

      2.) Do we have to mention it at all? If it wasn't relevant in the book, it might not be at all. That being said, I don't see a lot of harm in assuming he is.

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    • I'll give a pass for us giving Pierrot a section then. Because we're not given a gender, we'll try to avoid making any assumptions in the section (it should hopefully be small enough to not require pronouns).

      It's relevant in that Gatt's otherwise in an odd position walking around Lucifenia so casually and being noted as an officer there, let alone having an audience with the nation's president as if it's a normal visit. The Japanese fandom makes this assumption, hence why I've extended the question here four community's decision.

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    • Brought this up with Servy, but I'm going to suggest a minor spelling change on Caspar. Technically Kaspar would be the Germanic spelling of the name, and given Elphegort is basically an analogue to Germany and even his surname is pretty Germanic, I think this would make sense.

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    • I agree with this. We have a clear pattern of this with a lot of other characters in Elphegort (including his "father" Karl and Margarita's dad, Marx).

      It'll be weird having to see his name with a K for a while but I think the Germanic spelling is more likely to have been the intentional origin of the name (it doesn't affect the meanings behind Caspar's name either).

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    • Given the reasoning, I can get behind Kaspar too. oOo

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    • Isn't Caspar suposed to be british tho?

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    • He's from Elphegort and Blankenheim is Germanic.

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    • Ah I just assumed because Marlon

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    • I'm quite used to Caspar, but Kaspar would be okay.

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    • Nah, it's fine. He's of Marlon descent, definitely, but back far enough that his family seems to at least been acclimated to naming standards. Karl is a pretty common Germanic name itself. Kaidor was a Blankenheim, too, IIRC? So on either side, adoptive or birth, he's got the Germanic last name. So yeah, it's really only one letter difference, but it's the Germanic spelling.

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    • Kaspar change sounds great.

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    • While we're talking about translating names, I would like to know if anyone here has any idea what "Burobarusu" means. As in, "the Burobarusu highway" that leads up to Calgaround.

      83 i can't figure it out gdi

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    • Burbars?

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    • As in ブロバルス? I'd say Burobas, Burovas, Bulobas, Bulovas, etc. Bs are sometimes used as Vs, though it really depends ont he situation. I can't find anything similar to compare this to so that's purely my guesswork from experience.

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    • Just to add two cents- I think Kaspar works well considering the setting, as has been stated. It's not like name changes in EC are uncommon, so I'll probably get used to it eventually anyhow.

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    • It seems most everyone here's alright with this choice and reasoning. I'll give a pass on changing Caspar Blankenheim's name to "Kaspar" then.

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    • This novel has a lot of fake identities... 

      It almost seems like the whole novel is inspired by the eighth circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno: the Malebolge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge)

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    • Can it be added to Mikulia Greeonio's trivia that she was named after the Greeonian Plateau Roses, the key ingredient to gift? I think it's just fitting that her impersonator would use Gift for her own machinations.

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    • Do you mean she or the "Flower of the Plateau" moniker? If the latter, then I think it should be on the Countess' article as well and that it's made clear to be about the name everyone called "Mikulia" there.

      On a somewhat related note, there's one thing that's been nagging at me ever since we dropped the info. I've finally gone through all the facts and think found where the error in logic occurred so here's what I've collected.

      First up, the Lunacy novel stuff:

      1) Elluka writes a report regarding the harem women she met during the post-processing of the Veno Event case, Mikulia among them.

      2) Elluka details her second-hand knowledge that Mikulia had fled from Abito shortly after giving birth to her child. She's spotted at a brothel a year later.

      3) Elluka indicates she met Mikulia, reminiscing that pleasing the neighborhood customers seemed to make her happy in its own way. Then she moves onto the next woman.

      Second, the Gift novel stuff:

      1) FotP tales say that Mikulia killed her child; Elluka surmises that therefore she couldn't have descendants as that was her "only" child.

      2) To counter Eve's statement that she coud've had other children with Gilbert, Elluka claims that she witnessed Mikulia die at a young age and that it occurred "soon after" she had given birth to "that child".

      Finally, the FotP song:

      1) The line regarding the son's desire for his mother's affection is followed by "Even if she was a stupid whore who abandoned/discarded (the child) she birthed herself."

      So I found where the error and logic nagged at me. Elluka claims Mikulia had only one child and has referenced meeting Elluka and witnessing her die. Her deduction to Eve wouldn't make sense unless she was absolutely certain Mikulia had no other children but the one before she died.

      Elluka cites knowledge of Mikulia having one child in Abito and fleeing with that child afterward. And in Gift, Elluka says the vague "Soon after" but that doesn't necessarily mean the birth of "that child" was what caused Mikulia's death. That window of "soon" could mean anything, especially to Elluka.

      An approximate year isn't that long and Mikulia would still be young. If Elluka headed over during that timeframe and met Mikulia shortly before she died of whatever, it would make sense.

      There's also no direct statement in the FotP song that the son was born in the whorehouse; my understanding of the lyrics is just that it's admitting she birthed him and that he was allegedly abandoned/discarded by her (well, she died when he a babe so....).

      And Elluka's report in Lunacy about Mikulia is evasive on actually meeting with her. She talks about what Maylis apparently does with her child and gives a little on her conversations with Lukana/Mikulia, but stops short of what leads she had been following on Mikulia and giving her vague impression of the girl. That sounds really carefully worded imo.

      So basically, I feel all the above facts only makes sense if Mikulia's only child was her Veno son and that that was the child who the fake Mikulia killed. He was born in Abito, taken with her to the whorehouse, died shortly after of some unknown cause, and later went to Calgaround in search of his mother.

      Thoughts?

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    • Maybe Evekulia was the one who fled from abito.

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    • Impossible.

      Mikulia was already pregnant with child and had to give birth to that child before she died and have Elluka witness it. Elluka would've already been tipped off that something was wrong if she saw Mikulia die then heard she fled from Abito and ended up at a brothel and met her there.

      The only reason Elluka didn't think anything was wrong with Platonic being Mikulia's descendant was because she assumed the only child Mikulia had was where the thief came from. When she heard about the tales of Flower of the Plateau from Mayor Julia, it set off her alarms because that only child was allegedly killed and the portrait of the countess was definitely "Mikulia".

      The recent Lunacy tree supports that the child she had with Veno was a boy and if she had more than one kid, Elluka's entire deduction in Gift makes no sense. If the child in the FotP and the Veno kid are the same, there are no contradictions in any source material.

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    • Sounds like, barring the idea that Mikulia's second baby in the brothel died during the birth complications too, the only explanation is Mikulia did not die in childbirth and probably instead caught some kind of STD and only had one baby. We could almost say that Elluka's wording of Mikulia is a little wistful, like "She had a sort of happy life at least now that she is dead. > >"

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    • For Greek's trivia point, if it's about the /real/ Mikulia, then that's her last name. I don't really think it's that important, just say "she shares her family name with Greeonian Plateau Roses, one of the main ingredients of Gift". If it's Mikulia Calgaround, though, then I'm not sure what to say. It's neat though, she took on the identity of someone whose name is shared with a plant that her imposter used for her evil purposes.

      As for the logic behind the son, it all makes sense. It couldn't have been M. Calgaround who fled from Abito, see above for Servy's logic. Also, I think it would be a total mind**ck if the Doll could get pregnant with actual human beings.

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    • Now that I think about it, I suppose the trivia would make sense for Mikulia Calgaround. Something like "Her maiden name, Greeonio, is derived from the Greeonian Plateau Roses, the main ingredient for Gift; fittingly, she would use Gift for her own machinations later in life."

      As for the rectified facts regarding the original Mikulia and her death, I think we should update the appropriate pages and state that Mikulia died of unknown causes in the Lasaland brothel.

      Also, given this new information, is it safe to assume that Mikulia's son took up the Greeonio surname? Because I commented on page before saying that if Mikulia died shortly after, I don't think he'd actually be part of the "family", but now I'm not so sure.

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    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      Now that I think about it, I suppose the trivia would make sense for Mikulia Calgaround. Something like "Her maiden name, Greeonio, is derived from the Greeonian Plateau Roses, the main ingredient for Gift; fittingly, she would use Gift for her own machinations later in life."

      I don't think it's been mentioned at all if Greeonian and Greeonio are derivatives of one or the other. All we know is "Flower of the Plateau" was taken from said flower. The name Greeonio itself isn't explained.

      I think if it's something like "Mikulia's/Her attributed name as the "Flower of the Plateau" is taken from the Greeonian Plateau Flower; fittingly, the flower is the main ingredient for Gift."

      This seems to be curiosity trivia too, given it doesn't deal with real life or meta connections for the name.

      As for the rectified facts regarding the original Mikulia and her death, I think we should update the appropriate pages and state that Mikulia died of unknown causes in the Lasaland brothel.

      Agreed, that would be the natural result of this change. No way to determine what she died of in that wording.


      Also, given this new information, is it safe to assume that Mikulia's son took up the Greeonio surname? Because I commented on page before saying that if Mikulia died shortly after, I don't think he'd actually be part of the "family", but now I'm not so sure.

      I think so. She had the child for approximately a year and clearly wanted to keep the boy. I think naming him would come naturally. I share the sentiment for Conchita and the others who could get sections, which reminds me.... *heads over to Lunacy thread*

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    • But Servy, I remember this discussion from the first thread:

      Me: Is the Greeonian Plateau Rose named after Mikulia, or is it the other way around? You: Other way around.

      Has new information somehow invalidated your previous statement?

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    • No, I just misunderstood what you were saying. I though you were referencing the "Flower of the Plateau" name, not the "Greeonio-Greeonian" thing itself.

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    • Oh, sorry about that. I guess I wasn't being clear enough. So what's your opinion on it, then?

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    • Nah, it was my fault for not reading it clearly and giving you the wrong impression.

      Personally, I'm not willing to assume about the name one way or the other.

      If Greeonio came from Greeonian, that's one mighty unnoted coincidence for Mikulia, real or fake. If it was the opposite, then that's assuming they even knew her surname before marrying the earl.

      The Gift novel never has Mayor Julia mention Mikulia's real surname. Perhaps she hid it so she could blend in with Elphegort society as a regular lower class Elphegortean and further distance herself from being an Asmodean whore? Without any story covering the period in more detail, we lack that kind of info.

      Likewise, what did they call the flower then before "Greeonian Plateau Rose"? They gave her the name "Flower of the Plateau" and it was apparently a very well recognized flower at the time. I feel there's just too much room there.

      I feel it's best to stay silent on whether or not they're connected and let readers make their own interpretations until new evidence or further elaboration from mothy occurs (still crossing fingers for FotP story).

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    • Is it too late to update the title of the Gift song to "Gift from the Sleep Princess"? If I'm not mistaken, her Pere Noel codename has the same characters, and we translate it as such. I know doing that entails a lot of editing all over the wiki, but I just think it's better if we don't use something so literal (i.e. "The Weathered Head at Onigashima" vs. "The Head Exposed to the Elements of the Field at Onigashima").

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    • Naw we use the translated novel title(only exection is pierrot as it has two possible five of pierrot and fifth clown)

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    • Yeah, we've known for some time now that that "Gift from the Princess Who Brought Sleep" was a bad translation, but no one fixed it in time and mothy ended up making that the official English title.

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    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      Snip.

      Our last thread consensus did end up being not sticking strictly to PHP/mothy's title translations so it's possible. I don't mind either way, personally.

      Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      Snip.

      That was not the reason for the deviation. There was a clear indication of localization error and mothy's actual prose supported it.

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    • Since an article for the department's going to be up soon, I want to confirm translation choice. "International Works Department" is what we used but I also through out "International Tasks Department" as an alternative. Anyone feeling one would be more appropriate or the other or is what we currently use seem accurate enough?

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    • I think "International Works" is better than "International Tasks", since the latter implies that it's just doing a bunch of assigned stuff from a to-do list. "International Works", on the other hand, clearly conveys Justea's purpose: international operations.

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    • I actually like Task better because it reminds me of "Taskforce", but since we've been using "Works" more often I don't really object either way

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    • Either one works for me really. Although I think that "International Works Department" has grown on me as is so I'll probably just vote for that one-.

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    • I have no preference either so I'm fine with "works" or "tasks". If I had to pick one, I'd stick to Works.

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    • I think "International Works Department" is better fitting, so I say we stay with that. 

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    • We'll stick to our current translation then. Moving forward with the page!

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    • With the Justea page now up, I'd like to suggest a trivia point for it. Apparently, "Justea" is a real name, originating from Latin (makes sense, since it's from a Beelzenian emperor) and means "fair" or "just". It seems pretty likely that mothy got the idea from the name's meaning.

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    • I don't about how likely but I think it's notable to the article and organization so it has my support.

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    • Servant of Evillious wrote:

      Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      Snip.

      That was not the reason for the deviation. There was a clear indication of localization error and mothy's actual prose supported it.

      In that case can that be good trivia in name? Something like "The official English name, Deadly Sins of Evil: Gift from the Princess who Brought Sleep, was inspired I mistranslation on the song."

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    • Maybe if it's reworded but saying the title was "inspired by a mistranslation" kinda gives off the wrong impression. 

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    • This is a minor thing, and I'm not sure how it's come up in the book yet (it might just be wordplay in the song), but I was talking to my Japanese teacher and it seems that 眠り姫 (nemuri hime) is how the Japanese language translated the name "Sleeping Beauty" (as in, that's what Sleeping Beauty is to them.) 眠らせ姫 (nemurase hime) is meant to be a subversion on this, turning the verb qualifier into the causative form.

      This is a problem for me and I was wondering if I could get some opinions on it. 眠らせ姫 has already been established as "the princess who brought sleep/the sleep princess" (although the meaning is closer to "princess who makes you sleep"). It is supposed to be a bit of wordplay on 眠り姫, "the sleeping princess". With all this in mind, which would be the best way to translate 眠り姫? The too literal "Sleeping Princess" to play off of "Princess Who Brought Sleep"? Or the actual meaning, "Sleeping Beauty", which sacrifices the wordplay but keeps in the cultural reference?

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    • 146.113.75.124 wrote:
      Snip.

      It comes to personal preference. If I was the translator/editor, I'd have it as "Sleep Princess" and "Sleeping Princess" but either way, there's a wordplay that doesn't fully translate unless you know Japanese.

      I've discussed this in private before, and "Sleep Princess" is probably the most accurate localization of the name, keeping the Sleeping Beauty among other fairy tale inspirations in mind along with the literal meaning of the text and what works and sounds best in English.

      Since "Sleeping Beauty" doesn't exist within the Evillious universe and both the song and novel have used the phrase to be poetic about Margarita's suicide, I'd stick to "Sleeping Princess" to keep that parallel made clear.

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    • Finally found a name origin for the Lorres. Apparently it means "flower". Given all the flower references in the book, (Flower of the Plateau, etc.) can it be added to Elluka and Gumillia's trivia?

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    • My apologies for basically performing some thread necromancy here, but I've finally gotten my copy of the Gift novel and is there anything you guys want me to scan or rescan in while I'm still at college and can access a scanner? We've pretty much got all of the illustrations so there's not much I'd need to scan unless you guys want to try for better quality scans, but checking the book's wiki page we don't seem to have a proper scan of the full cover. Anyone want me to scan that in just so that we have it all together?

      Surprisingly, my copy also came with the clear bookmark from the Animate editions, so that I can definitely scan in as well since the photo of it we currently have kinda sucks in terms of quality. If there's anything else we need though let me know and I'll run down to the library to scan it in.

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    • We could need a full cover and bookmark scan

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    • My genuine apologies for taking so long to post the scans, school kinda got to me. I've got the full cover and the bookmark up on tumblr now, so you guys can check them over and do whatever editing you need. The cover DID get slightly cut off on Mayrana's end due to being a bit too long for the scanner, but it should otherwise be fine.

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    • Price has begun her translation of the novel. As there is new information being revealed, I encourage everyone to discuss the changes here before we put them onto the pages.

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    • I think it's worth noting that a good chunk of what's already there was price's first attempts at translating any of the novels, and as such she's correcting the translations that are already there on top of filling in the gaps

      as of right now only the prologue has been fixed

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    • Price has updated Chapter 1.

      Things that were retranslated:

      • Kiel check station -> Kihel check station
      • Broborus highway -> Brovals highway (she doesn't know if the romanization is correct though)

      If anyone could help make the changes, that'd be great.

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    • Hey I wonder if Margarita Blankenheim could be a disambiguation given that Eve Michelle and Elluka all took that alias.

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    • I think a disambiguation page for the (Third) Sleep Princess title would be more effective here than Margarita Blankenheim.

      irc Elluka went by Third Sleep Princess and pretended to be Eve, she didn't call herself Margarita, and Michelle similarly thought she was Eve and called herself the Sleep Princess (SCaP in particular identifies her more heavily as that than Margarita. It says it's her alias on the page but I wonder if that's based on her outfit more than what people called her in-story. I'm not even sure why it says Margarita was Elluka's alias on her page)

      Eve also doesn't use it as an alias, she just is the original Margarita Blankenheim.

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    • Yes I know but I just called it an alias for simplification. But ok I can make it for Sleep Princess.

      Also I have made minor char for Marx's Felix's wife and Arkatoir's mother and i was wondering if there should be sections for the Marlon princesses? I mean Ney is stated to be the thirteenth princess meaning Kyle has twelve other sisters. Should there be a joined section for all of the or should each princess have their own?

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    • It's possible by 13th she means "13th child overall". Nonetheless, there's no point. Each one would read the same "they were born as Marlon royalty before being offed by Prim". I don't see why people who have no story presence whatsoever should get a section.

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    • Some things to address:

      "Merrigod Plateau was located at Elphegort’s most northeastern point, the city of Calgaround in the center of that. The city’s history was old, and it was said that it originally began as a result of a terrorist organization named “Apocalypse” operating in their citadel over six hundred years ago, back when the region was still a territory of the Magic Kingdom Levianta."

      • It seems that Calgaround grew from the base Apocalypse established on the plateau. Is everyone alright with assuming that the legends are indeed fact?
      • Calgaround is located at the center of the plateau, rather than at the foot. The wiki's information currently says otherwise, so if anyone could help correct this, that would be great.
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    • So if Elphegort was a part of the MKL at one point, should Levianta be added to Elphegort and Held's catagories?

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    • I think the implication is the area Calgaround/the plateau lies in was MKL territory, not necessarily the whole country

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    • Ayn Anchor's statement: "Though I did hear that the sister [Clarith] was a Netsuma just like my grandad was."

      The impression I'm getting is that Ayn Anchor is not a Netsuma himself. Should we change the info on the pages? It's possible that Ayn has mixed heritage.

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    • it might just be best to say that he has netsuma heritage and leave it at that

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    • Nope. He's Netsuma. Actually that's my bad.

      He says "like my grandad and me", not just "like my grandad". My eyes skipped over the "boku" when translating.

      Correcting it now (this is Price).

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    • Also, this doesn't necessarily mean that his father isn't Netsuma, for the record--he uses the "ya" syllable, which means he's not making an exhaustive list of Netsuma in his family in only listing himself and his grandad. It's possible his father is too and he just didn't find it relevant to mention.

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    • Some worldbuilding notes from the latest translation post:

      • Most shamans were Held devotees, and wore robes with tree insignias.
      • Most pharmacy owners in Elphegort are descended from shamans; Egmont's not a special case.
      • Many of the orphanages in towns (in Elphegort, I'm assuming) were founded by the Sisters of Clarith.
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    • Hey, can i post a minor character section for Felix's wife?

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    • Sure. Say that they had a loving relationship (or something along those lines) rather than that they married for love, though.

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    • Going through the latest post by Price, it seems we have some things to correct. After being released from Sin, the Levia-Behemo dragon destroyed Levianta and, as it was about to die, a fragment flew to Held's Forest and abducted Hansel and Gretel before self-destructing and disappearing.

      I myself am not sure how to interpret this, at the moment. Some thoughts:

      • Whereabouts of the Miracle states that two lights fell to Held's Forest rather than a dragon flying over there.
      • The Levianta Catastrophe is in EC 013. If the dragon abducted the twins shortly after, that meant Hansel and Gretel were at home at the time.

      Let's clarify this all here before making changes.

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    • I'm honestly flabbergasted by the wording choice myself. I don't know if maybe the verb for kidnapping has some hidden connotation to it that I can't find. Considering Elluka wasn't there at the time, and this segment is speaking from her narration, I think it might be of dubious accuracy to events. Or there might be something about it that we're not getting from the brief info here.

      -Price

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    • Also, on a second reading of what you said, nothing says the dragon flew over there and picked them up. It specifically says "fragment(s)", as in, not the whole dragon. It's very possible the two lights Elluka referred to are those fragments. It's just the word "kidnap" that muddles the issue.

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    • Mayrana had this to say about the Lioness Burning Incident:

      • "Ah, that’s right. I’ll tell you everything, before you ask me—I am also the one who burned down Lioness twelve years ago. –My, how nostalgic. Now that I think about it, that was my first job. Though, I’d done it by own judgment. My lady has such an attachment to you. I got so burned up with jealousy. But in the end, I wasn’t able to kill you, my whole reason for doing it."

      Our articles currently say that Julia specifically tasked Mayrana with starting the incident, but from what Mayrana said, it appears she did on her own volition with the intent to kill Elluka. I think we should change what's said on the articles.

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    • It's been revealed that Aai is specifically Aile's granddaughter, so if anyone could add that to the articles, that would be great.

      Also, the quotes need updating. Any help on that would be appreciated.

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    • According to Price, it's safe to assume that Mayrana indeed instigated the Lioness Burning Incident on her own volition, rather than being ordered by Julia. Any help in correcting this info on the articles would be appreciated.

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    • There's a throwaway line in this scene about antidote spells, which apparently exist. Not sure how we can integrate this info onto the pages.

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    • A FANDOM user
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