FANDOM


  • To get the disclaimer aside, this thread is for discussing information regarding the Venomania light novel and can be used to debate translations, bring new information to light, dispute how to interpret information, among other things. All users are welcome, to participate in this thread so no one should feel shy to agree or disagree with a topic. It goes without saying to be respectful. As always, feel free to express your excitement about the novel but keep your replies productive and relevant. Now, let's dance in this harem!

      Loading editor
    • Okay, I've never read the novel but I have two questions regarding it: why is Hereditary Evil Raiser Syndrome is mentioned there, and what information did the novel gave us aout it?

      Also, I think it is important to make a page about HER.

        Loading editor
    • Irina intended to spread HERS through the Venom Sword's powers. That's why she helped Venomania: Because apparently the chances of someone with HERS being born increased a lot in the harem girls, as a result of the demon of lust powers.

      In the end, Meilis, Lukana and Mikulia's sons had HER.

      Not sure if there's anything more about the disease itself, though...

        Loading editor
    • That opens up a lot of theories, thanks! So if HER is hereditary, maybe some people in the Venomania Bloodline have had HER or some sort of weakened HER. Maybe that is the reason Clarith almost comitted Wrath - her HER potential was an advantge for the deamon of Wrath.

        Loading editor
    • I want a few more translators to check that, since it wouldn't be the first time a "three people have this" turns into "there is a potential one in three people have this" or "three people maybe have this." 

      To my knowledge, HER is talked about in the prologue, briefly in the extra chapter by Ma, and at certain points in the novel itself. I do have a test page, but it's unfinished since I have yet for someone to cite exactly what HER Syndrome is. 

        Loading editor
    • We can at least confirm that Meilis had some potential. Conchita is a HER, after all.

      And Gammon's curse also indicates that Lukana's son might have HER. Well, at least that's what it suggests, we can't say anything for sure.

        Loading editor
    • Just want to be sure, where did it say Conchita has HER again? ^ ^;

        Loading editor
    • I know one source brought up that the child of Meilis would lead to Banica (with HER) but it's hard to tell if the source is basing that more off assumption or fact. HER definitely is a possiblity with Gammon though since it would explain his "curse" to his family that would require the Venom Sword to somehow fix. 

      The last chapter with Irina is at a temple worshipping Levia and Behemo, so it is probably the best place to look for the HER references in relation to herself and the children to confirm everything. 

        Loading editor
    • I have good news~! The source who was a goldmine for Banica did something similar for the Duke. I just translated a random line and already got something new: Gumina was known as the "Mistress of Duke Venomania" when she was persecuted.

        Loading editor
    • Can you translate the rest of the post? For some reason when I put it through Google translate the blogger kept on calling Cherubim "Kerry/Kelly".

        Loading editor
    • Yes, this one isn't as good quality, over all. It's going to take me and my dictionary more time to go through and make sense of everything beyond what's already known but I will post the specifics here or on a blog post soon(tm).

      Edit: Did some searching and that blog has led me to another. Translating more of it so here's a tidbit:

      The five children of Jupiter Beelzenia in the Beelzenian Empire at this time:

      • Eldest son: Janus (ヤヌス; first prince)
      • Eldest daughter: Feburia/Febria (フェブリア; first princess)
      • Second son: Maruchiusu/Martius (マルチウス; second prince)
      • Second daughter: Apuririsu/Aprilis (アプリリス; second princess)
      • Youngest daughter: Meilis (the third princess herself)

      The obvious pattern here is that each of their name resembles the month. For that reason, I selected "Martius" and "Aprilis" as the translation to the romaji based on the names used by the Romans which had the same pronunciation. Febria and Meilis seem only based off their months while Janus is a direct reference to the Roman god and January.

        Loading editor
    • Alright, now that I have some time to write this out fully, here's an argument for name spellings:

      As you see above, I used Martius as the spelling for the character we are calling Maruchiusu. I already explained my reasoning so I won't be too in-depth. I was going to suggest naming him "Martias" based on my own research before this lovely source cropped up.

      Anyhow, here is where I got the idea that the "chi" would be a "ti" spelling. Well, it struck me as odd that we translated Fureejisu as Freesis while Sateriajisu as Sateriajis. The reasoning I was told was that it depended on how you pronounce the j, but in this case they should be pronounced the same.

      Looked at the name's origin (satyriasis) and took it's Japanese spelling and romaji (サチリアジス; Sachiriajisu) and compared it to Venomania's (サテリアジス; Sateriajisu). In this case, the names only difference is the second character, with "jisu" translated as "sis". The "chir" would be the "tyr"sound, hence why the same should apply for Martius.

      With this in mind, I believe the proper english spelling for the Duke is Sateriasis Venomania, not Sateriajis.

      On that same note, I think Meilis should be spelled Maylis, a real name derived from the word "May" that is pronounced the same as the current spelling. While I dislike this spelling, I think it's the most appropriate.

      Then we have Lilien Tarner. I checked the romaji and text (ターナ; taana) and compared it to the japanese and romaji for the english word "turn" (ターン taan), the similarities are uncanny. Because of this, I feel her surname is actually the real surname "Turner", not "Tarner".

      Then there is Rajih. Looking at his spelling and romaji (ラージフ Raajifu), the pronunciation of the f is indicated to be soft: After discussing this with another translator, the valid names he could have could be Rajih, Rajif, Rajiv, etc. All real names. What would be everyone's personal preference for this?

      Simple one next: Lazli Blue. the romaji spells out Razurii and I believe it to be a direct reference to the lapis lazuli, the blue stone, and should be spelled the same (Lazuli).

      And finally Mikina Olpria. The romaji gives me, Oruriba. While the p is a possibility, the r after it is not. The closest name I could find was Oliba, although knowing if "ru" is acting as a stress for the O is beyond me. Otherwise, I feel we should either use the romaji or the name "Oruliba/Oluliba". 

      Here's what I brought. ^

        Loading editor
    • Man, that kind of sucks if it is Sateriasis because I like how Sateriajis flows... :C I mean, if it's more correct, I'll go with it, I'll just be sad because I liked how it was pronounced and flowed, while it feels Sateriasis is a mess of s's. The j was a nice break.

        Loading editor
    • I liked it too but from what I gather, the j was supposed to be soft, meaning it was already supposed to be pronounced like a "zh" in the romaji, which I suppose is suppose to be the stressed s sound.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, I'm just gonna be sad. Because it's visually more pleasing and looks more like how it's pronounced. It's basically me being resistant to change and disappointed.

      Also, with you on preferring Meilis to Maylis.

        Loading editor
    • We seem to be made to suffer. It's out lot in life. :P

      I won't lose sleep over it. I'll eventually get accustomed to it. Nothing will ever be as bad as Neruneru Nerune (still wish it was Nerunel Nelne... make it happen mothy!).

      Edit: To keep this on topic, I think this merits the Beelzenian Royal Family having its own page in the near future and having the siblings be placed in the minor characters for Lunacy.

        Loading editor
    • Tis the lot of those who have anything to do with Evillious. Evillious is suffering.

      I do say, though, that if Sateriajis and Sateriasis are pronounced the same you COULD make a case for keeping it the former so there's no real room for error on pronunciation? Because English is stupid like that and visually can't let you tell the difference between the s sounds.

        Loading editor
    • See you could make the case, but you could also make the case of Nerunel Nelne. The difference is discerning author's intent. The name is meant to be derived from the word "Satyriasis". Both this word and Venomania's name are spelled the exact same way in Japanese, save for one character the ("ter" in Venomania's name rather than "tyr" (chi")). With that in mind, it's hard to feasibly say he wanted to use a J instead of an S when using the same characters there but using different characters on another syllable.

        Loading editor
    • No, I understand the usage of j vs. s. I'm saying, as a translator, I know sometimes people can take a bit of liberty? You'd understand it's really supposed to be Sateriasis, but make a note that, "Due to how confusing English is and to avoid mispronunciation, Sateriajis is used as the translation instead." Because man, English is hard with all its weird, nitpicky rules. I guarantee you most people will pronounce "-sis" like "sister." Basically, a case of, "Less accurate spelling, but more likely to guarantee correct pronunciation" if that makes sense. I can understand either way, just that it's a case that could be made.

      With Neruneru Nerune I always assumed, as she was a spy, it wasn't her real name. :x I do know it's apparently a pun on a food?

        Loading editor
    • - Sateriasis is horrible.

      - Maylis as well. However, I see more reasons for us to change Meilis to Maylis than Sateriajis to Sateriasis.

      - Turner instead of Tarner? No objections there.

      - I most sincerely prefer Rajif. Well, this may be a bad pronounciation of me, but I don't see how "Rajih" has a soft f in the end. 

      - Lazuli Blue? Well, that also sounds silly, but meh. No objections.

      - About the Olpria part. I can't see how it could be spelled as "Oliba". Were that the case, I would even assume that we should go as far as to say it should be "Oliver" (I played Ni No Kuni, I know how they pronounce that name! O-ri-ba! That's how I believe "Oliba" would be pronounced as well). Unless you have a double l like "Olliba" or "Olliver". 

        Loading editor
    • I thought of Oliver but wasn't sure if it worked. It's the "ru" that really throws all the names off. If the name isn't meant to resemble a real name, maybe we should be looking at things related to the Vocaloid itself?

        Loading editor
    • Ehhh....I don't like Sateriasis or Maylis either, but I honestly don't see a way around it with the evidence provided (and I'm sure I'll get used to it in a month or so.)

      If it's the author's intent to have it spelled that way, it doesn't matter how fans are going to pronounce/mispronounce it, in my opinion--taking liberties, albeit more with events than names, is how so much fanon got put on here as fact. If a databook arises with the old spellings as the official ones, then we can always change it back, right? ^ ^;

      As for the rest, I have no objections, and I kind of like Rajiv, personally. I don't know if I can comment on Olpria because I'm not at all an expert on Japanese, but Oluliba is kind of funny given the "Lu li la" thing. :P Can't find anything related to Miki, but I'll keep looking.

        Loading editor
    • I'll probably never get used to Sateriasis. In my head it'll always rhyme with "stasis," so that doesn't help. Sateriajis just looks VISUALLY more pleasing. Eeeh. Even if the official spelling changes here, I'll probably still use it just because of that. :x

        Loading editor
    • Since we're on the topic, I would like to point out a flaw in Mystic's translation. Like most places, they're all preceded by "city/village/town/whatever" to denote they are a "town of _______". The word "mystic" is ミスティック (misutikku), while the word for this place next to teh Misty Mountains is ミスティッカ (misutikka), meaning "Mistica", "Mystica", or a similar spelling. The same applies to Platonic who also has the "kku" at the end.

        Loading editor
    • Well since Tako now have the light novel, she listed a basic index for the novel (note: She didn't check what the chapter titles were, she just listed the names she saw next to the chapter numbers).

      Prologue
      Chapter 1: Lukana Octo
      Chapter 2: Mikulia Greeonio
      Chapter 3: Gumina Glassred
      Chapter 4: Yufina Marlon
      Chapter 5: Maylis Beelzenia
      Chapter 6: Elluka Clockworker
      Epilogue
      Extra Chapter
      Afterword
      Illustrator's Comments
      Map

      The Lukana part makes sense since a lot of our tidbits that come from early on in the novel mention things from her perspective as if it was introducing us to the setting. Last chapters also allegedly have Elluka and Irina so Elluka being next to the final chapter makes sense.

      Also, users have been pointing out Rio and Mew for some of the harem. If we agree to add them as the "possibly/likely" like the others, I feel we should change "Mutant" to "Mewtant" or something similar.

      On the same note, I know this was discussed briefly a few times on chat, but a user was suggesting Cherubim's parents be Nilfo/Nilpho and Ilott. That or a similar spelling fit in with the romaji so nothing to debate there. Anyone want to add a suggestion or against changing "Irotto" and "Nirufo"?

        Loading editor
    • I agree with Rio, less so Mew but I'm not averse to that change either.

      On that note, I also agree with Ilott and Nilpho. I'm suspicious of "u"s in our character names now. :P

      Was there an issue of their romaji names being puns or something like that? I think there is a precedent of the romaji name having meaning while the actual translation still varied (like the Story of Evil characters with their names looking more like their Vocaloid counterparts in romaji? Is that a viable argument? ^ ^; )

        Loading editor
    • I agree with Nilpho and Ilott. The names themselves look better than Irotto and Nirufo, as well as there is no real reason for we to keep the romaji (Nilpho can even be used as a pun!), so...

        Loading editor
    • Octofan wrote:
      Was there an issue of their romaji names being puns or something like that? I think there is a precedent of the romaji name having meaning while the actual translation still varied (like the Story of Evil characters with their names looking more like their Vocaloid counterparts in romaji? Is that a viable argument? ^ ^; )


      I'm not sure how often that's popped up for minor characters like these (though the Meguru comparison to Gumi may be evident). There were some possible connections found in the romaji but they could always just be coincidence (I mean, Irotto only cropped up with "iro" (male lover) and "otto" (husband) but that's based completely on its syllables, not its spelling).

      I am starting to lean on removing the "likely represented by" statements entirely though with the possible Vocaloids linked. While I think these get to the point of being extremely obvious, they're never depicted and we've had some issues balancing the way we portray this with Pere Noel as well (referencing Agni's comment and Sloth touched upon this). I feel a good point is being brought up and this might be an area too hazy to make assumptions; thoughts? Is this under the category of "Irregular obvious"?

      Also Misstress suggested changing Teto (romaji "tetto") to Tette. Not sure if this is relevant, but I want to point out that we spell her romaji as "cetera" so maybe there's some pun on "et cetera"? I personally don't mind changing it to "Tette" or "Tet".

        Loading editor
    • That's what i said earlier, it can be a pun on that, same as witniss truth(Rio neja represented by Tone Rion?)

        Loading editor
    • I'm 90% sure Rio Neja is Tone Rion, given that the Vocaloid's appearance is that of a maid, and Rio's listed to be a maid. On the whole name topic, I think Blume should be Bloom, from that line in Daughter of Evil "Evil flower, vibrantly blooms..."

      Also, I think "Nylpho" would be a better name for Venomania's mother, given the whole "nymphomania" lust theme.

        Loading editor
    • By the way, I remember that there were some characters in TLDV that were considered NOT to be represented by any vocaloid at all, since the vocaloid release happened after the song itself was published.

      I don't know which ones were the case, but I thought it was important.

      The "likely represented by" thing is... Well, I personally find that some are way too obvious (Annlee Sweets, for instance) while there are ones that may not be what it looks like (as it was the case with Meguru being represented by Luka). So... Yeah, I don't know what to do. I understand the point of taking off that part, but I also think that there are some really, REALLY obvious connections to vocaloids in many characters that don't need much debating.

        Loading editor
    • Anon who brought the translations forward. Nylpho was a possibility, actually, and the pun on nymphomania actually did come up.

        Loading editor
    • So... when are we changing

        Loading editor
    • Sloth Sinner wrote:
      The "likely represented by" thing is... Well, I personally find that some are way too obvious (Annlee Sweets, for instance) while there are ones that may not be what it looks like (as it was the case with Meguru being represented by Luka). So... Yeah, I don't know what to do. I understand the point of taking off that part, but I also think that there are some really, REALLY obvious connections to vocaloids in many characters that don't need much debating.


      Yeah its a hard call. Nothing's said but so many are so obvious that it makes it hard to not justify keeping it. If I had to choose now, I'd say keep it but change the wording from "likely" to "possibly". We usually skirt away from that but if we're keeping these, the wording can sound less like us pushing for it to be true. We can add Mewtant and Rio's and bring up the topic again another few months down the line.

      Anon wrote:
      Anon who brought the translations forward. Nylpho was a possibility, actually, and the pun on nymphomania actually did come up.

      The only reason I don't think its a pun on nymphomania is because of the r/l sound, which kind of defeats the purpose of a pun if it doesn't even sound like the word its referencing. It might be a reference but I'm not too sure. Either way, I prefer Nylpho over Nilpho.

      To confirm: Anyone against Mutant --> Mewtant? Also, confirmation on the personal choices for the Irotto, Nirufo, and Teto changes (if you want a change).

      My vote goes to Ilotte, Nylpho, and Tette.

        Loading editor
    • I'm all for the name changes, myself. There's a better argument for why they'd be correct than for keeping them as they are.

      I also vote in favor of keeping the line on what vocaloid a character is based on but changing it to "possibly". Since some of these are blatantly obvious, we might just have users out of the loop adding them again anyway. 

        Loading editor
    • Those name changes....yeah, they sound nice. I'm mostly just bothered by Nirufo as it is. The way I view it, it's screaming "change me". 

      I also agree to keeping the represented by a certian Vocaloid thing in. On account of the painfully obvious ones, of course. If "likely" makes it sound forceful, by all means change it to "possibly".

        Loading editor
    • I think that mewtant should be changed to mewtwo.

      No, just kidding. But I keep remembering of mewtwo with that name :P I agree with everything, too.

        Loading editor
    • ^ I'd be lying if I said my mind didn't go in the same direction. Mutant/Mewtant is one of those names, in my own opinion, where it doesn't matter how you choose to spell it; you're still going to have THAT name. That wonderful name.

        Loading editor
    • Alright, I'll give this another half-day in case anyone has an objection. To go along with it though, I want to bring up Rindo. I know one of the first sources that came up mentioned her as a horse driver in the novel but I think this may have been a mistake.

      No other source has mentioned Rindo or Josephine for the novel (even wikipedia.jp omits them) and mothy stated on his blog that they were cut in order to keep his light novel light. I think we should just go off of the song information and leave out the original source's impressions for the girl.

        Loading editor
    • I want to bring up that I might have seen Rindo in the manga as well (I remember someone bringing this up and the issue not being resolved? ^ ^;;) On page 10, among the Harem women watching Venomania walk away, one of them has short hair and a short skirt which looks like Rin from behind <.< There's also a woman with a long skirt and long wavy hair which could be Priema. They aren't colored and their faces aren't seen, but they can't be accounted for as any of the main four harem women. (Does anyone want to weigh in on this being them? Maybe for Minor character image purposes?)

      So I would be willing to believe the first source was mistaken or otherwise unreliable.

        Loading editor
    • That was Adept, if I remember correctly. It's rumored there were over a 100 women in the harem and we clearly see at least a few dozen in the song's PV. A few random stock members wouldn't be abnormal, especially since we see plenty of generic/faceless people in the streets of Mystica as well. I'm not entirely sold on that being a cameo, especially since we don't know how the novel progresses and therefore don't know when Priema was added.

        Loading editor
    • Servant of Evillious
      Servant of Evillious removed this reply because:
      Seems to have been a mistake. Irrelevant to the topic.
      03:45, December 23, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • Are we still on the name changing topic? If so, I'd like to bring something up. There's two Mikina's in the Evillious Chronicles and it kinda irks me off. Is it possible to change it to Mikkina, since it's spelled that way in the cast list?

        Loading editor
    • Based on the real life name "Mickey" being "ミッキー" and this character only adding the "ナ" at the end, I think "Mickina" or something similar would work. Anyone have another spelling they'd prefer?

        Loading editor
    • Mikeena? :P Like Greeonio.

      Naw, Mickina sounds right if the Japanese matches up.

        Loading editor
    • Mickina. (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧

        Loading editor
    • I'm all on board for Mickina. (ノ◕ヮ<)ノ*:・゚✧

        Loading editor
    • I'm with Mickey Mouse Mickina!

        Loading editor
    • Seems we've reached a concensus. I'll throw my vote in with Mickina too. And so it shall be.

        Loading editor
    • I got some more info on Lukana; looking for second source to help substantiate it. Apparently, she met Elluka when she was a child and has had her "purple dream" ability since before being part of the harem.

      She allegedly foresaw the water-rich Mystica suffering a drought but no one believed her. Elluka was visiting by chance and believed her story, saving the town by sacrificing a Very Amazing Octopus to cause a rainstorm. After the Veno Event, Elluka was only concerned with Lukana's situation and body swapped with her.

      Also, Maylis seems to have known about Yufina and Kachess' affair (and envied them) from Toy.

        Loading editor
    • Well, now there is a blog on Tumblr which is translating the novel at their convenience!

      http://pokkoo-shuu.tumblr.com/thelunacyofdukevenomania

      On the prologue alone we've got a handful of our old tidbits confirmed--and some of them expanded upon, such as Seth's experiments including the Venom Sword as well as Irina--and if this translation continues, we're going to have massive history updates for all the people involved <.< 

      There's a lot of new info in here about spells, too, and plenty of hints to Irina's backstory that OSSA2 expanded upon.

      I will try to make a list of all relevant points when I have time ^ ^;

        Loading editor
    • It's amazing how the very beginning of the light novel spoiled the album released eight months later and we didn't even find mentions of it till long after. Goes to show how fast we get info. XD

      Assuming "sinned weapon" was "vessels of sin" lost in translation, then the rumor I heard about Seth trying to make the vessels of sin seems to be at least partially true (it doesn't exactly point out why he made the Venom Sword). At least the light novel explains that Cherubim killed all the servants as well; it would have been an odd plot hole if he didn't mind wipe them or kill them.

      Did anyone else notice the irony with how Irina, like Elluka, was "killing time" for the last 100 years, albeit via causing as much Dick Dastardly levels of evil as possible? These mages are the queens of procrastination.

        Loading editor
    • Welll that's certainly an intriguing little update, it feels nice to see some translations, even if they aren't the best. Even if just for the general idea- I find it nice. It's interesting to get a more "in-depth" look at Cherubim's agreement though. The manga gives good visuals, but sometimes words just do a better job of descriptions.

      Perhaps this isn't that old of information- but I do enjoy having numbers of HER in babies now. Numbers can be nice sometimes~. I'm also intrigued by the wording of how Levianta's disaster was apparently to stop HER.

      It's nice to see Irina's train of thought for coming to Venomania too- it looks more into why she went to the Duke, other than it just being for HER. I find it fascinating to finally get a better look at her thinking, even if it's through third person POV.

      As he's making the contract with the demon, I find it fitting too that he feels comfortable with it. A bond by sin is a neat idea in my mind, fitting for  the chronicles.

      "It must have been revenge- that caused his world to break apart." Heh heh. This post was probably a bit all over the place. derp

      That translation though. <3

        Loading editor
    • So I have a question. How will we be regarding all this wonderful information coming from this lovely translator? I do suspect that there might be just a few inconsistences but I do see a lot of things that match up with our sources which is just wonderful <3 Just as wonderful as how I.R is so manipulative and cunning (can't help but love how she gets things done). All of this just sounds beautiful, some really good insight on the characters and their thinking as well. I just love this encounter between I.R and Venomania, how she subtly gets him to make a contract with a demon, although like Pika-kouhai mentioned he kind of already felt that bond already. It's all really just fascinating and fantastic~.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, I can see why this novel has receieved a lot more praise then the DoE series. I think mothy taking a traditional narrator's perspective helped with the writing a lot, since it's now more like he's directly giving us the info, rather than basing it on just one character's perspective. I like how I.R. is portaryed as well.

      I know the very first part of the prologue is a bit inconsistent with the other translation that was posted here a little, but then again the translation qualities are a bit inconsistent. We'll just have to be more careful with this one like we are now trying to be with DoE.

      We should probably bring up some of the I.R. past reveals in the OSS Act 2 thread, since many of them tie directly with the events of the album.

      I.R. setting up a meeting with Duke Illote also clears up why she just happened to appear, although the line "compared to IR’s goals" from the translator seems to allude that the entire Venomania Event was just her whimsy rather than part of whatever master plan she has in mind.

      Edit: Adding Adept's suggestion to include a trivia point about incubi on Duke Veno's page to the topics.

        Loading editor
    • I think it's a better connection than some of our other mythology trivia, personally, especially with the Demon of Lust's actions (or is it just Irina's motivation?) to make children. Stealing "male essence" and using women to make children is apparently a notable part of the incubi/succubi myth, so <.<

        Loading editor
    • They also steal life energy. Isn't that what Sateriasis does? :V

        Loading editor
    • With these points in mind, I'm going to simply say that "I agree".

        Loading editor
    • I'm in agreement too, personally.

        Loading editor
    • I kinda think he's based of gengis Khan. I mean he also played the game of impregnate every woman in you sight. 5/6 of all asians are decended from him

        Loading editor
    • ...I don't think it was Venomania's goal to impregnate women, it was just a thing that HAPPENED as a result of lots of sex during a time when there wasn't any birth contro.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, I'm not seeing too much of a loose connection (although I've made the joke myself in the past).

      Also, should we add Irina to Seth's character connections (and vice-versa?)? Seth seems to take vested interest in Irina and he was pivotal to her survival and later mayhem.

      Plus, do you think he was the one who explained how she was a HER to her? Based on the light novel, she had thought she was a normal human, but later embraced her nature(?) and revels in it.

        Loading editor
    • I have no qualms with Irina and Seth beind added into each other's connections, it seems rather important. I can also see Seth being the one to tell Irina about being a HER. In fact all this information brings up a new question for me, was Seth the one who taught Irina how to create vessels in order to for Demons of Sin to inhabit them? We've seen Irina craft the Clockworker's doll in order for the demon to inhabit as a vessel of its own. I think Seth might have taught her more then a few things. >u>;

        Loading editor
    • Seth experimented with making vessels of sin. I wouldn't be surprised if OSS Act 3 shows that he and Irina are behind the events of Abandoned. I may have posted the theory in another thread, but I was speculating that perhaps Seth was trying to make Irina into an artificial Demon of Sin.

      It's a bit off basis, but he does put her spirit into a red cat (vessel) which allows only those possessed (or made human vessels of [Mikulia]) by Demons of Sin to understand her, gives her an immortal life (apparently even if her cat vessel is destroyed) and gives her unique abilities as a result. If he was interested in HER and making vessels that simulate it's symptoms, that would make sense. Still no endgame but that's the best I can come up with. XD

        Loading editor
    • I agree to adding Irina and Seth as the opposite's character connections. Seth seems to be shaping up as the first of Irina's many "partners" in the EC, so if Prim gets put on there then so should he. And we all know Seth sees Irina as important to some end. 

      Although I'm also noticing that Irina is going to have a long list of connections if this continues (I mean she already does.) Is that okay? >.> Will we ever be reworking character connections in the future?

      For the Genghis Khan/Venomania thing I mean technically Genghis wasn't trying to impregnate people either, and I feel like the connection might have some merit when it comes to the outcomes of what they did (people claiming Venomania spawned half the cast and the "5/6 Asians" thing.) It's less solid comparing how they got to that point, but I don't know--it's worth considering. I still agree with the incubi thing, of course.

        Loading editor
    • The same can be said for Platonic and Elluka; I think it all depends on who we're considering the notable connections. The list's length isn't really as important as the people on it. Is Irina's connection to Seth something really worth pointing out separate from the rest of the article?  How about Irina to say Milky or Ly? Or Platonic? I think that's the mentality we should be having when considering this section.

      Also, just to bring this up. I noticed that the Lunacy manga brings up "This time it was the soap house owner's wife." I have blury scans but 家(?) for "house" (I think) also translates as "family" and the "soap" is in katana. I think the two women Lilien overhears are talking about Priema Soap being kidnapped (they call her a "millionaire/extremely rich person" so a rich married woman might fit the "unemployed" bill).

      Edit: Also, I can confirm that the Demon's dialogue in the Japanese is nearly character for character the same as in the manga. However, I don't think "bloodlust" is a term used in either. Based on the Chinese translation used, I think it's more akin to, "your blood has certainly been filled with lust" referencing Lust magic. I think we should remove using the term "Bloodlust" as a thing in that case.

        Loading editor
    • I'm fine with the idea of having her connected to Seth, he was potentially her first partner and I feel their relation holds potential to get much more important. Provided that we get more of the Original Sin Story, I think that giving them a character relation bit is important enough to be added.

      I second the saying over "bloodlust" any day. <3

        Loading editor
    • On the other hand, do we know how Irina felt about Seth? <.< We know Seth feels she's important, but can we judge from the narrative if Irina felt gratitude or curiousity from his actions? (What I got is that she considered him a mad scientist and was interested in his experiments, as even though this is a third person point of view it is still limited to Irina.)

      And yes to the bloodlust removal, if it only showed up via the manga.

      Meanwhile, what does Priema Soap being the subject of discussion mean anything significant besides helping with the timeline? 8V (Andmakingitmorelikelythatthatwasherinthemanga)

        Loading editor
    • We can assert that Seth is the one responsible for Irina's survival and inhabiting the cat body, and decided to collect some of the vessels of sin she created for her own purposes.

      That's the most I think we can say based on what it is. I feel there's a much deeper connection between them, but that's looking between the lines when there are no lines yet written. XP

      I think the Priema thing is just a tie in. She's the 10th woman kidnapped, allegedly, and by the time Lilien joins, there's over 15. It gives us an idea of people the Duke kidnapped:

      Lukana > Mikulia > Mirigan > Lolan > Gumina > Carol > Priema > [three other people somewhere on this list before Priema and then at least five more after] > Lilien > [more women] > Kachess

        Loading editor
    • I don't have much to say but that I agree with the bloodlust removal thingy >u<;

        Loading editor
    • Can I just bring up one of those name things again? I think Rindo Blum should be Rindo Bloom. Compare the romajization of the English word "bloom", ブルーム (pronounced buruumu) with the characters for Rindo's last name, ブルム (pronounced burumu). They're really similar.

        Loading editor
    • Similar, but not the same.

        Loading editor
    • It could be a nod to "the flower of evil blooms"

        Loading editor
    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      It could be a nod to "the flower of evil blooms"

      Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. 

        Loading editor
    • I agree with the anon; it's similar but not the same. If it was the same, I'd be neutral. Also, the pun is still a possibility whether its Blum or Bloom so I see no difference in that regard. I'm fine with us keeping it as is. 

        Loading editor
    • Except the song is in Japanese, and the lyrics don't use the English word for bloom. 8/ I don't know, it seems a bit contrived? I would be in favor of it if the romaji matched up, but it  specifically doesn't. 

        Loading editor
    • You guys have a point. But the thing is whenever I read "Blum" it rhymes with "plum" in my head. Would it be too much trouble to put an e at the end so it still sounds like "bloom"? 

        Loading editor
    • So change it back to how it was before we voted to change Blume --> Blum? I'm neutral. As long as this doesn't become a back and forth kind of thing.

      Just to point out to everyone, Blume/Blum are both real names and are derived from German, meaning "flower". It's pronounced the same with either spelling, although the English language sometimes corrupts the pronunciation as how GT's pointing it out.

      Edit: And I'll add the Incubus trivia to Sateriasis.

        Loading editor
    • I'm concerned to the idea of going back and forth, and I don't really see the issue GT is pointing out. In my somewhatignorant opinion, there are many different spellings to even the same name that could easily be mis-pronounced with English phonetics. However, they are still commonly pronounced the same way as their other spellings. Not to mention that the name itself is (as previously stated) not even English to begin with, so it may initially be prounounced otherwise. In conclusion, my vote indefinitely goes to leaving it as "Blum".

        Loading editor
    • If it's a reference to the song/Riliane's other nickname by being the German for the word flower (which makes more sense than a pun that's not even in the intended language, in my opinion,) then I vote for Blume. Although it wouldn't be pronounced quite the same in actual German--"e"s aren't silent. But names can have those exceptions? jdgkdfk 

      On another note, are we going to add Lukana's grandmother and mother to the minor characters list/the family page since they've got a mention? I find it curious how people specifically say that Lukana's grandmother was a Leviantan, as opposed to her mother or father or ancestors. It makes it sound like she was a refugee from the Catastrophe or something--is that possible? 

        Loading editor
    • I don't know about the grandmother. We seem to know nothing about her besides being Leviantan. Since a century does pass since the disaster, I think she would have had to be a child, or Lukana's mother was very old when she had her. As for the mother, she has one line of dialogue in a flashback but little else; still, more than the grandmother.

        Loading editor
    • I don't really mind if it's Blume or Blum but personally I prefer Blum to it. So I leave my vote as that.

      Can I bring up something about Lukana? I think the fact that she can easily become jealous should be added to her Personality and Traits section, we see it happen more than once and I think it should be noted. In the manga, she's jealous of the necklace that Venomania gave to Mikulia to show she was one of his "favorites" and then later she claims she's jealous of how Gumina calls him "Sati" so casually. Then in the novel she's stated that she's jealous of Sateriasis' beautiful appearance. Don't you think it's a bit coincidental that she's both a tailor and a jealous person, well maybe not to the extreme. A reference to Kayo perhaps? I know it's already stated in their trivia that they are both tailors but maybe a little bit of an add-on, to deepen their connection beyond that. What do you guys think? >u>;

        Loading editor
    • I think we should see how the other harem girls react, tbh. It might just be a recurring trend that they are jealous of Sati's beautiful face and how he favors some girls more than others. Other than that, I'm fine with it being mentioned in both trivia and Personality. Her and the other harem girls need their personalities updates with this novel.

        Loading editor
    • I'm going to agree with Servy in regards to this. I don't really feel that we have enough evidence to state this is just something Lukana specifically acts out. If I remember correctly, even Mikulia has shown signs of jealousy towards Veno's affections with Gumina, so I don't know if Lukana is really any different. It could be a side effect of Lust's magic, for all we know.

        Loading editor
    • I'm didn't really mean to add it all in right now, I was just thinking it could be something thought about and noted for the future, honestly. XD

      Um Pika-kouhai, something that Lukana specifically acts out on? In the first chapter, she claims she's jealous of Veno's beautiful appearance and I believe that was something before she was influenced by him, so I assume it's something of her original personality.I'll be honest, I do think that most of the girls would be jealous, jealousy is a normal human emotion and the fact that Veno favors some over others would spark that.

      In the end, I'm just trying to point out the connection between Kayo and Lukana, they are both tailors, they've felt jealousy (Lukana maybe not to the extreme but still there) and later Lukana's body is used as Kayo's. I just felt like maybe deepening that connection beyond that they were tailors but I'm fine if that doesn't get added at all. It was just a musing of mine but we could just wait and see what happens along the line and see how everything plays out, if this is really just something that occurs with all the girls themselves.

      EDIT: Evils forgot that there was this thing called an enter key on her computer- derp Is it better now Servy~? OUO

        Loading editor
    • By the Maker, Evils... paragraphs... paragraphs!

      If we're going to stay on the topic of Lukana, we're getting a lot of backstory and exposition confirmations we've been waiting for in her chapter and the prologue.

      I'm not sure though if the Marquis and Sati having a fight is true or just Venomania cranking out more lies for Lukana to believe.

      EDIT: It is better now Evils. <3

        Loading editor
    • @Sempai: I understand what you're saying, so let me try to explain my own opinion. It's understandable that she seems to act out some jealousy, but I don't believe it's to the same extent of Kayo. I feel that saying they have a connection through her acting out jealousy in rather minor cases every so often is a minor thing. I'm fine with it being added to the personality section, but I do not feel that this jealousy can connect her to Kayo. If that were the case, I could argue Clarith should get a trivia point too, as she gets rather jealous and over-protective of various characters she feels close to.

      In my opinion, she would deserve a point if the jealousy became more obvious and started to make conflicts (and not just with other harem girls). In addition, I'd appreciate it more so if the trait stood out from the other girls too.

      @Servy: Personally I feel like the majority of his tales and behaviour is partially acting while in her presence (or- you know). I predict that it wasn't true, or if it was it had been over-exaggerated.

      * USP needs to go check out that site now- derp

        Loading editor
    • I guess I'll explain mine a bit more as well, just jealousy wasn't the point I was making, it was the fact that she was a jealous person (to some degree) who was a tailor who later becomes the body for a woman who commits the sin of Envy and who is also a tailor, maybe just pointing out the fact that they both exhibited traits of jealousy, were tailors and let's not forget Luka characters~ <3 But I am fine with not adding it, like I said, until we get more information and see just how it plays out. We'll just have to see then, won't we~? Apparently Elluka also repairs and mends her own clothes, I'm seeing a pattern here XD 

        Loading editor
    • I can get that. It would seem odd if they had an actual fight like this and then the Marquis is completely unsuspicious of Sati's involvement in Gumina's disappearance. I guess we'lls see when her kidnapping takes place.

      Also, should we start to consider adding the real Sati's mom? We now know she and the Marquis are siblings (or at least that's what the translation implies), and that she was an Elphe. This also gives the Glassred family another member before marrying into the Venomania family.

        Loading editor
    • Maybe Cherubim had an argument with the Marquis and not the real Sateriasis? <.< (Is it too much to assume the Marquis even knew about his existence?) There's like a grain of truth to it but Sateriasis is still in the clear.

      Maybe Elluka starts mending clothes because Lukana has the brain of a tailor? 8O You do get the brain along with everything else in a body. Some neural pathways are more developed than others. (It's been a while since Psychology but I think that's how it goes.)

      I think we probably should add his mother, there's already plenty of Nylpho-is-the-mother-of-which-one-again? confusion without clarifying she exists as a person. Would we just put "Venomania (wife)" for now?

        Loading editor
    • If Cherubim became a servant, probably all the nobles knew when they visited for parties, especially if the Marquis is family. I agree, "Venomania (wife)" would be perfect unless we get a name for her. On the Glassred page, we could put "Gumina's Aunt" and link it.

        Loading editor
    • So there's some more name stuff I'd like to bring up. If Maylis' siblings follow a month theme in their naming, wouldn't it be more appropriate for "Martius" to be changed to "Marchius"?

        Loading editor
    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      So there's some more name stuff I'd like to bring up. If Maylis' siblings follow a month theme in their naming, wouldn't it be more appropriate for "Martius" to be changed to "Marchius"?

      Read the above post I made about the translations. The katakana is the spelling for the months in the Roman calendar: Aprilis and Martius.

        Loading editor
    • Okay, so the new translation of Part 5 is up, and it turns out Sateriasis/Cherubim really did lose his memories, and that this itself is a hazard of using the Sin Vessels (or at least the Venom Sword, but we've seen memory loss on the user in two other Sins....) That sure adds another meaning to the manga at least, where he only remembered his love for Gumina after Rajih's persistence reminded him. 

      Who really knows now; if that part was true, then Venomania might not have been acting at all. How much of his memories did he lose? Did he think he really was his brother? Does this last throughout his whole reign of lustful evil, or did he remember he was Cherubim later? We'll have to wait until the translations are done e~e. Even though he forgot what he was supposed to be doing at first, he's still being driven by lustful urges, he still ended up building a harem and he definitely brainwashes Lukana. It's weird O.o

        Loading editor
    • Based on the situation, I doubt I.R. would be unaware whether he actually had memory loss or not. It's quite possible though that it isn't necessarily memory loss as much as it is Cherubim purposefully trying to believe he was his brother and wiped his own memory.

      The song has him destroying his portraits in order to "forget his old life" where he was laughed at and despised. It's possible he's actually trying to immerse himself in the fantasy that he is his handsome, eloquent, good-natured brother who could obtain anything and everything he wanted. Either way, the manga does illustrate that he knows who I.R. is.

      I guess we'll have to wait till the book reaches the part where Venomania collects Lilien to get the full picture. (Same with Tette Cetera; I think we have major manga mistranslations in that portion involving her).

        Loading editor
    • My copies of the Veno novel and manga came in. Took the time to try getting a good scan of Suzu's Irina as an infobox image. No luck. No matter what, that image gets pixelated. I got decent quality for 280px. Gives more emphasis on the cat while not ignoring the body steal aspect. Thoughts?

      IRavatar2

      Irina 280px

        Loading editor
    • 1. It's in color

      2. More emphasis on the cat.

      3. Faceless look works well with Irina's bodies as mere mediums.

      4. She's most recognizable to the fandom as Haru. 

      I think it's a good fit. 8V If anyone else has different suggestions or criticims, though, it'd be nice to hear them too.

        Loading editor
    • I agree, provided that the body is only a "vessel".

        Loading editor
    • Ahhh...I am just going to have to disagree with this picture. Although I like the idea of it focusing on the cat and the whole faceless prospect....it just seems a bit lacking....as a avatar. I mean I really liked the smile in the one Irina already had, really shows her true nature. This one seems a bit blurry to me. The cat on the current one has much better features, in this one it looks like its eyes are rolling to the back of its head. I think I am just going for aesthetics on this one.

        Loading editor
    • I SAY YESSS!!

        Loading editor
    • While I dislike it being in that quality, I guess it is for the best. A colored image, not showing any face... It's a better representation of her overall, imo. ^^

        Loading editor
    • I agree as well. I'm seeing a 5-1 ratio. I'll change the image now. Unless I see a major upset, we'll keep it like that.

      Moving onto the next thing, I am scanning some pages from the Venomania novel. Really interesting stuff.

      For one, there are two reports included in the text, one by Neruneru Nerune, and one by Kachess Crim.

      It seems the one by Crim is the same one Maylis gets in the manga, might even be replaying the same scene.

      Major points:

      • With Neruneru's report, as many as 15 women had been kidnapped; it's summer of EC 136, it seems.
      • Public report is that the number is 14; Yufina's kidnapping has been covered up to avoid an international incident with Marlon
      • There is a Marquis Donald; interesting since a "Duke Donald" crops up in the Conchita novel; I suppose the Donald family replaced the Venomania's among the Five Dukes?
      • The women who disappeared after Yufina: Sonika Sonic, Lazuli Blue, Priema Soap, Lilien Turner, Mewtant Lusha, Tette Cetera, Rio Neja.
      • Kachess' report described what he had uncovered "just one month" since he began investigating; he doesn't mention Rajih or Sateriasis by name either (this is probably what caused Maylis to be so easily tricked afterward).
      • Reports of Gumina and Carol's abduction indicate someone killed a lot of the guards and those that survived couldn't identify the person (not sure if Venomania's memory manipulation or not).
      • Lukana uncovered Cherubim's diary in the basement; it seems she's the major focus point for the "mystery" regarding who this Cherubim is.
      • Cherubim was taught how to write from a lookout guarding him, it seems.
      • His early entries often begin with "The prison is dark" or some variation (entry January 16, unknown year: The prison is dark. It was cold today; entry February 2, unknown year: Dark prison. I want to go outside."
      • Cherubim met Sateriasis on July 19, EC 123.
      • Cherubim first left his prison on September 7, EC 123.
      • Cherubim met Gumina on October 16, EC 123.
      • His letter progress from numbers and hiragana to more and more kanji before becoming formal, longer entries with years as well.

      If Rio's the fifteenth, then we should be able to map out the order Venomania took some of these women Lukana's first, then there's Mikulia, Gumina and Carol, Mirigan Adi and Lolan Eve somewhere there, and Priema had to be kidnapped by early April when Lilien got seduced. That's just 14 so maybe Hakua? I'd have to go searching for the names and where they pop up. 

        Loading editor
    • You know, considering he had such little contact with his peers and next to no creative stimulation until however old he was at EC 123, Cherubim's really really intelligent. I mean there are case studies of children like this growing up stunted mentally and physically by their teens. O.o I don't know if that guard made a difference or not. (Do you think he's Witnis and that's why Witnis knows the truth..?) 

      Waaah, so much information here that we can input. (Personally I think it must be the memory manipulation being used on Gumina's guards, but it depends on whether they can't identify him because they didn't see his face or they can't recall the abduction at all. Cherubim could have brainwashed Gumina, Carol, and the guards all at once so Gumina had no inkling of being kidnapped.)

      Are we going to add the Donald family to the Five Dukes...? <o<

        Loading editor
    • I made sure to do so a few hours ago, though I'm not sure about character pages. I want to say that Marquis Donald was under suspicion of being behind the kidnappings long with Veno and Marquis Glassred but I'm going to have to take a second look at the report to confirm that.

      If I can find Duke Donald in EFEC too we can add stuff for them about, assuming it's substantial enough.

      I didn't even think of the lookout being Witnis! I should look for his name towards the end of the book and see if it crops up. It's possible the lookout was teaching Cherubim more than just writing. I assume Venomania learned a lot about the outside world too while playing with Cherubim. He had to become a servant too so he must have been somewhat well mannered.

      ^ This should be considered for his skills and abilities imo.

        Loading editor
    • I suppose Cherubim's intelligence had to start somewhere. Rather than starting right at the point of kidnapping women, why not begin with writing? =D

      The Donald family looks like something we'll see more of, or perhaps I'm hoping they're a batch we'll see more of. Either way, this new family's history intrigues me, though I barely know it now.

      If we were ever to expand him to a page and create a skills and abilities section, that would be a start yes.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not sure if either Donald's get enough (if any) screentime for full characters. Maybe a section in the minor character lists but that would be it, imo.

      I think Maylis and Kachess' info can be updated though, given what we've learned from the book. I feel we may have to retranslate the Veno manga to get some clarity, especially since it includes some scenes in the novel.

        Loading editor
    • 8V I thought USP meant Sateriasis, in that instance? I don't have too strong an opinion on that--of course it depends on what more information he's given in the novel, if the tidbits aren't enough. (I mean we've got two post-humous characters with sizeable pages already in Anne and Arth so I think it'd be alright as long as we get enough on him.)

      I agree some updates can be given to Kachess especially, not so sure on what more will be added to Maylis? ^ ^;

      Poor Donalds, going unacknowledged right now. They have only two known members, don't they? No family page for them. :(

        Loading editor
    • I should learn how to read. orz

      My bad "with Cherubim" should be "as Cherubim". To clarify.

        Loading editor
    • So after a long wait, part 7 has been released! http://pokkoo-shuu.tumblr.com/thelunacyofdukevenomania 

      Some things I just want to point out right away:

      1. Haru is a teenager, so that note of her being shorter than the other harem members makes sense. 8V Just a little thing.

      2. Lukana and Venomania get into a debate about the choice of styles among aristocrats--apparently the Asmodean populace and some aristocrats enjoy eastern styled clothing, but the Beelzenian Court wear western styled clothing, and the Venomania mansion was also made in a western style. (I wonder if the original Asmodean Duke's family/original Venomanias had been sent out from the Beelzenian court to watch over the territory, explaining this difference.)

      3. Apparently the style of the "tuxedo" Sateriasis is wearing might have come from the east originally, though. ouo 

      4. Venomania got his memories back--apparently now that he knows who he is he's becoming more sociopathic before our very eyes. 8O As SoE pointed out in chat, he already knows I.R.'s name once he remembers, so he didn't lose his memories immediately after losing the sword.

      5. Gumina apparently told him "It's best if we don't meet again" during her rejection of him. 

      6. Irina as a cat can't use magic. I don't know if this was mentioned before.

      7. It's possible for Sateriasis to speak to the Demon of Lust directly (Well, speaking to it with telepathically anyway.) Likewise, the Demon of Lust responds. 

      8. On that note, this is the second demon to complain of being bored. I think that their main motivation, like Irina, is to do stuff for the evulz. 8V 

        Loading editor
    • In order:

      Sounds good, definitely going to have to add to Asmodean and Beelzenian culture sections.

      Yep (based on I.R.'s earlier conversation, it sounds like he just messed up when using his memory manipulation powers and affected himself).

      We're going to have to add that to Gumina and Veno's article.

      We always knew she was helpless without a medium but this translation reinforces that.

      Yeah and I think this should be added to all Sin pages under their Demon sections; important piece of info.

      Yeah, though it seems the DoS is too bored to stop being bored (lazy demon!). That makese sense overall since the power of Lust caused some of bloodlines to develop HER and Held is extremely opposed to both the Demons and HER.

        Loading editor
    • So is anyone else wondering if Venomania can not only talk to the demon in his own soul, but the other demons, through thought? And that's how he knew Sloth was in Mikulia? (If I.R didn't discover it first.) Kinda like how he could understand Irina as a cat, although in her case it was her actually speaking because he didn't realize he was talking to a cat until she came into view.

      >8I Shouldn't we add Venomania's love of ketchup bread to his section? Or was that just another plea to get Lukana to stay? <o<

        Loading editor
    • Well Chapter 2 is Mikulia so we might get that mentioned. In part, I want to say it's because "the Demon could probably sense another Demon using her" but then there's Kachess...

      Since Venomania can allegedly sense magical power, like with the Marlon Spoon when he mistook it for a vessel of sin (actually, we should mention that in his Skills), I wouldn't be surprised if he noticed Mikulia had an unnatural, wicked aura around her with the DoS.

        Loading editor
    • The state religion of Beelzenia during this period is Levin (page 66) and the religion doesn't allow you to have more than one wife.

      There's also a huge narration when I.R. slips in to spy on Mikulia (at her home?) and sees her doing the "forest prayer" which is apparently a thing the Held sect does.

      Confirmation that all three major sects exist at this point. Behemo's already largely considered heresy and barely practiced anywhere (except Asmodean I guess, going by that Entr'acte interview with mothy).

      I want to say something happened like Mikulia saw Sateriasis and I.R. kidnap Lukana and the Duke heads to Abito with I.R. so they can keep her from spreading rumors but it would take a while to get the gist of chapter 2 and why Sateriasis goes there. She seems to question if the red cat is a demon's minion, either way. 

      Anyhow, here's my updated list on the order these women seem to be disappearing in:

      1) Lukana Octo

      2) Mikulia Greeonio

      3) Lolan Eve

      4) Mirigan Adi

      5) Gumina Glassred

      6) Carol Shields

      7) Hakua Netsuma(?)

      8) Yufina Marlon

      9) Sonika Sonic

      10) Lazuli Blue

      11) Priema Soap

      12) Lilien Turner

      13) Mewtant Lusha

      14) Tette Cetera

      15) Rio Neja

      ?) Neruneru Nerune

      ?) ???

      18) Maylis Beelzenia

      ?) Ann Lee Sweets

      From the song list, we're still missing Yuki Kaina, Rindo Blum, Josephine Francois, and Mickina Olliba. The end of each chapter tells how many women are in Venomania's harem. Maylis' is the last chapter (18) before the Elluka chapter, where it ends with 0.

        Loading editor
    • Interesting; if Behemo is so unpopular, it makes sense that we only have one character confirmed to practice it. I wonder how Ney even got into it, though, since neither Prim nor Mariam are practitioners--is this the one thing that Ney did on her own time? (Not terriblyrelevantbut-) Looks good to put on the Levin page, though I am confused about the supposed forest prayer--is it prayer in the/a forest? A style of prayer? ouo; 

      Also, always good to get this stuff reasoned out. I wonder if each lady will briefly have their abduction touched upon for our further convenience.

        Loading editor
    • It seems to be a style of prayer. Mikulia and I.R. are in Abito. A lot of narration of Chapter 2 is devoted to explaining the religion in one form or another, as well as elaborating a bit on what I.R. can do (such as only being understood by the demon-contracted Sateriasis but is mysteriously understood by Mikulia).

      And no, not every character gets it. Most of them actually have it happen in passing, usually mentioned through narration. Of the ones that get touched upon, I believe it's only Lukana, Mikulia, and Maylis. Having said that, I haven't been too terribly focused on them.

        Loading editor
    • 8/ It'd be nice to have that part translated then, our Levin page could potentially get expanded a lot more. 

      So this might be a stupid/obvious question, but Mikulia is an Elphe, correct? Are her adoptive parents also Elphe, if she's a Held practitioner? Like, Abito village as an Asmodean-Elphe settlement? ^ ^;

        Loading editor
    • Shuu will be translating that chapter next so it'll be translated soon enough. I don't know about her parents, but Abito is definitely on the end of Asmodean that's closer to Elphegort.

        Loading editor
    • I finally got the chance to go over the transcription for the Lunacy epilogue. Here's what I found:

      • Elluka writes a letter/journal two years since Duke Veno's death; she's been solving the aftermath of the incident little by little (two years would mean EC 139).
      • At the time of her writing this, she planned to leave Elphegort since Kachess was confirmed in Marlon, starting up his coup (meaning the coup is in EC 139).
      • After failing to find/catch Kachess in Elphegort, Elluka eventually decided to help with the post-processing of the Veno Event; this gave her the chance to hear from/about some of the women.
      • Elluka's not sure of the cause, but Mikulia ran away from Abito with her newborn baby; a year later, she was spotted in a whorehouse in Lasaland (so she ran in EC 137 and was sighted again in EC 138).
      • The Beelzenian Royal Family kept Maylis' pregnancy with Sateriasis a secret from the world, trying to secretly abort it, but Maylis refused (likely around EC 137, given the timing).
      • Emperor wouldn't accept the baby in their family so Maylis gave her daughter to Toy.
      • Lukana seems to feeling some guilt and regret in her heart over Sateriasis, magnified by her pregnancy; I can't make out everything but her removing of the brainwashing is involved.
      • Apparently Lukana, Lilien, and Rajih, decided to leave everything behind and start a new life in the "barbarian lands" (I am guessing that would be the Eastern region) with her child that was born (also sounds to be around EC 137-138).
      • I.R. kept going after her and Lukana kept fleeing; Elluka eventually proposes the body swap to deprive I.R. of making Lukana her puppet.
      • Elluka knew of I.R. but not her identity or purpose; she wanted to stay on high alert (I wonder if she ever connected I.R. to Abyss I.R.).
      • Lukana's baby was a bit puzzled by Lukana's new appearance but soon got reattached to her.
      • Elluka sees no signs of HER on any of the kids (yet).
      • Gumina went to Elphegort "shortly after the incident" with her family, saying she was relying on relatives there. The reason seems to be for her to avoid slander and for the Marquis' medical treatment (he got sick at some point, eh?).
      • Elluka thought explaining who she really was and why was "cumbersome" so she just pretended to be Lukana while talking to Gumina (Elluka questions why Gumina decided to tell Lukana everything but supposes it was perhaps too heavy a burden on her heart).
      • Gumina says she wanted to break the engagement because she didn't want to obediently follow the will of her parents.
      • Sateriasis (the first) was depressed about Gumina trying to break their engagement, since he liked her despite their parents having arranged their marriage; this is what spawned his doubts about Cherubim and Gumina's relationship.
      • Gumina overheard a conversation between Sateriasis and a subordinate plotting to kill Cherubim because of this.
      • Gumina decided to prove there wasn't any relationship between them by acting coldly to Cherubim in front of everyone, thereby keeping him safe from his brother's suspicions.
      • Elluka seems to ask if her reason for breaking the engagement was actually because her parents decided it or because she had feelings for Cherubim; she only gave a lonely smile.
        Loading editor
    • Now one must wonder what Mikulia did with the baby. She didn't exactly get a chlid-friendly job afterwards.

        Loading editor
    • It's funny, hearing about this I feel like Elluka could have her own series as an investigator of the supernatural over the centuries she worked for Beelzenia XD Each episode could end with her report. The Sin events could be feature-length movies O3O

      Good to have some of these things clarified;

      I think it's a safe bet that they went East, unless there's an example of any Evillious land being called "barbarian" before the Story of Evil. If they did, now all the people suggesting Gammon has Snakeland ancestry have something more to go on than his (also shared by Marlon) hair color. I wonder if the Octo family will be the lineage of the Purple Haired warrior as well. 

      D'aww, Maylis seems to have loved her child after all. @~@ 

      I guess the HER thing is an important note--if the children aren't showing signs (what even are the signs?) but three definitely are HER and IR was able to notice, then maybe HERs can sense other HERs. This wasn't point out anywhere else was it? ouo; 

      Hmm, so this is where that bit is finally revealed (unless it's revealed elsewhere)? Good grief Sateriasis the first. You're friends with your brother for over ten years and you still try to kill him over a girl. 8I

      @Lemmings: The child's apparent knowledge of her as a prostitute suggests that he was subsequently abandoned at her not-child-friendly job. I don't know if he was actually raised there (that kind of backstory has cropped up in other tales) or adopted by some loving couple, but it's interesting to think about. 

        Loading editor
    • We've been treating the HER case as just the children not having HER, not that the lineage can't potentially develop it. That's probably what I.R. is certain has happened but I'll double check that portion now that I can look at the transcription.

      Just imagine all the feels. Fan girls will argue over which Sateriasis was the prettier! Which one had the sadder back story. Then maybe some of them would eventually realize they both just ended up dumped by Gumina. XP

      And I totally agree. We know the East has been attacking them around this time and have been treated like foreigners. I'm sure them being considered barbaric/uncivilized makes sense, while people in Asmodean are much more familiar with their culture (being the place they seem to always attack and trade with XD).

      I am now 50% more certain our mysterious warrior in HY is a descendant of Lukana, who is an ancestor to VI. the Samurai, who is an ancestor of Gammon. I guess we'll know in a few months how that works out. XP

        Loading editor
    • I wonder why Mikulia brought her baby with her if she planned on getting rid of it anyway.

      Also, I shudder to think of what happens on Bring Your Kid To Work Day...

        Loading editor
    • Who knows, maybe the child Mikulia killed was not Sateriasis' child but some other random client's child. :D So Mikulia had a lot of babies! One for sateriasis, one for her client, one for the nobleman! You get a baby! You get a baby! Everyone gets a baby--okI'llstop

      I can't help but to feel sad for Gumina... In the end, I guess she never knew the truth. Well, it's better that way, I guess.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not so sure; I'm getting the idea she did know about Cherubim and Saterasis but that may just be Elluka having insight on the incident. The only way we'll know for sure is if we get all the previous chapters translated. XD

      As for the baby, who knows what was going through Mikulia's mind at the time. Maybe she thought/hoped Sati was still alive? Maybe she wished to live a life with her prince and their son (though why she ran away with the others is beyond me).

      Elluka says something to the effect of, "A life of being loved by the local customers seemed to give her happiness in its own way".

      ^ Clearly that either wasn't the case or quickly changed as we know what happens afterward. It's possible she just came to hate it all and wanted to completely escape from her past.

        Loading editor
    • I mean personally, I feel like she might have been able to realize what had happened, unless Sateriasis attempted to actually act exaclty like his brother through the duration of the entire Veno Event which I don't think he would actually do all the time. I am pretty sure some hints in his behavior could have cued the idea to Gumina. But that's just me *shrug*.

      But yeah, Sateriasis the first is definetly not exactly what the manga depicts him to be, most certainly. I had thought he was so nice, but c'mon-- D:< I feel like most of this info could be added into character pages/etc, as they are pretty relevant, unless they haven't been already. ouo;; Totally agree with the "barbarian" lands most likely indicating the East.

      I am pretty sure that Mikulia had loved her child back then, but I guess your surroundings can change you. As we have seen in the past, Elphes don't really take well to Venomania's descendants, and if they had nown she was once one of Venomania's cobucines, then I don't think she would have been as loved. And we know that Mikulia has had a rough past in trying to find love, from her parents to Venomania. D:

        Loading editor
    • I'd assume Sati was a nice person seeing how close he was with Cherubim and Gumina for so long. That is, until Gumina's 'destroy the engagement because Cherubim/incest/teenage rebellious phase' (personally I prefer the last two) plan was revealed. Then everything went Scissorloid.

        Loading editor
    • At its core, Sati and Cherubim were both in the same boat. Rejected, hurt, betrayed, envious, spiteful, hateful. They both went through this with Gumina and each other. The only difference is Sati's life was relative paradise while Cherubim's was utter crud. Take that as you will.

      If we're going to connect the barbarian lands being talked about in the epilogue to the eastern barbarian invasions, then we'll have a lot to change for articles. I'm giving all these the pass while we keep discussing it all.

        Loading editor
    • 8V Do you think that now or soon we could make plans for a Sateriasis Venomania (the former) page? I can't accurately judge how much info we can lay out for each section judging by his Minor Character bit, but right now there's stuff being discussed here that hasn't been added to his section yet. I feel like he could have a semi-decent Personality section, good character connections, trivia, maybe a lacking Skills section (all I can think of is that he's persuasive, impossibly handsome, good with people, and presumably decent at running political affairs) and we have a picture of him, even if it looks a little ugly.

      Or, even given that he does have enough, would the name alone cause too many problems because we went with Sateriasis instead of Cherubim on Duke Venomania's article?

      Andinothernews, have you gleaned any new information from the text? <u<; 

        Loading editor
    • Personally, I don't like the idea of only having the picture of him as a child, but other than that. I can't really complain. It might be a bit difficult to deal with having two Duke Venomania's with pages, but that would be unavoidable, given their unique situation. That said, I prefer we keep him on the minor character page, at least for now.

      As for the text, I haven't tried combing through it lately but I do have some updates on the end of chapter 1.

      Lukana definitely had a "purple dream" (her words) of the Duke as the horrid monster he transforms before her as (he grows the horns and everything). Lukana is absolutely mortified, sobbing, at the fact everything in her nightmare was happening and Sati just laughs at her fear of him.

        Loading editor
    • <u<; I don’t mean to be nitpicky here but you keep saying “mortified” and I think you mean “horrified”…judging by all my dictionaries, “mortified” means to be embarrassed. 

      But yeah, wow. O.o I at least thought he’d be sympathetic for a little while longer before Lust corrupts him, but either Lust works on a dime or Cherubim was a sociopath at that point anyway. 

        Loading editor
    • You and your nitpicks~

      To be fair, he does try to be less maniacal at first... by trying to coerce her be his wife and refusing to let her say no. XD

        Loading editor
    •   Hey, guys, I have something to bring up.  A minor something. 
      'Cause it's a minor character, get it?

      So there's this woman and her name is Mirigan. And that's exactly why I'm here.

      What do you guys think of just changing it to Milligan since no one cares about her anyway it's a real name and, while Mirigan is as well, ミリガン is more often seen translated as Milligan.

      And, you know, whatever.

        Loading editor
    • But on the other hand, Milligan is in no capacity a girl's name. Unless I'm wrong. ouo;

        Loading editor
    • I think it's just a surname (but I guess those can have genders too).

      Between the two, I prefer Mirigan, purely because it has a bit more of a feminine sound to it, imo. Both seem equally viable, though Ker's right that (at least for popular names) It is the Japanese spelling for "Milligan" too.

        Loading editor
    • So, the final part of Chapter 1 has come out and it has some interesting bits in it~. I'll just put down my thoughts here:

      1. I just think it's worth noting that being unused to the raw power of the Demon of Lust was what made Venomania a little maniacal (the phrase the passage used was "nearly dropped him in a state of confusion". (Possibly that also made him act like an idiot when it came to Mikulia, since he seemed to have forgotten his monstrous appearance entirely by the time she showed up.)

      2. We get to see again the process of him "seducing" his women. It took a little bit with Lukana, giving her time to make ~cryptic warnings~, so I don't know if she's an exception or if now we know it isn't instantaneous. 

      3. On the subject of Lukana, her Purple Dream appears to have shared more than just that brief moment between them, her warnings allude to both Venomania's harem and his love for Gumina just before succumbing to the brainwashing. 

      3. Mikulia wears overalls. 8I 

        Loading editor
    • I just want to add how he associates this and this as being the same hair color. Friggen Elphes...

      She makes it sound like she's had more than one nightmare since the first. According to Waltz, she was working for 20 days on the clothes and the last five days since her dream. She may have had more, or that one dream was something terrifying for her.

        Loading editor
    • To be fair, he could have eyesight problems from being in the dark in his formative years. <u< But yes, that is also a possibility.

        Loading editor
    • Whoever taught him color was doing it wrong. Same characters who call this blue hair.

      On the upside, this confirms my chapter 2 suspicion about Mikulia apparently knowing what happened with the Duke. Chapter 2 is divided into five parts and is relatively short so it probably just covers how Mikluia ends up believing he's her one true prince.

        Loading editor
    • Is it possible the Duke is also partly colorblind? :V It's a fairly common thing among males.

        Loading editor
    • Adding to my last statement, a friend confirmed to me that to them, Gumina and Mikulia do have very similar shades of hair because they're colorblind to certain blue-green shades.

        Loading editor
    • Nah, I'm joking about his color issue. mothy's established that Mikulia, Michaela, MotC, etc. all have green hair, no matter how blue the hue appears. This is largely because of Miku's teal green hair color, which some artists put rather close to the blue spectrum, and perception varies from person to person depending on how you're taught/perceive color.

        Loading editor
    • Now that the Lunacy blog is open, I can talk about this. Reading the prologue, the wording seems to almost directly imply the purpose of Project Ma was to eradicate HERs.

      On top of that, I got the impression they were implying that both Pale and Seth may have been HERs.

      Thoughts?

        Loading editor
    • I definitely think the experimentation line is supposed to refer to Seth--although technically riots and desruction are less specific actions to be attributed to one person, I think it is probably referring to Pale. I can't say it's safe to say it on their articles, but it's something to look out for. After all if Kiril has their same genes, it would make sense that they too have his condition. 

      It does seem like Project 'Ma's purpose, in this context, was in part to get rid of all the HERs, yes. Makes sense with all the populace losing hope in the project as the years go by with HERs on the rise.

      Do you suppose it was a secondary or primary goal next to cleansing the Sin? For all we know, the Sin could have been considered the source of the rampant HER in the first place (Radiation anyone? <u<) and that's how that's connected, with HERs being the "Dark Legacy" or something like that. Or else it was a secret agenda of the higher-ups.

      I also wanted to discuss the line: Because the creator so decided, I.R. was born. (Especially since the preceding lines state IR was born to make the world more interesting.) Is it reasonable to assume this is referring to Sickle, and that from there we can conclude Sickle introduced HER (or at least Irina's HER) to heat things up?

      We already have Sickle called the "creator" by mothy, if I'm not mistaken, in his summary for Heavenly Yard, and in that short story Sickle similarly seems not to mind the Seven Deadly Sins' presence because they add "spice" to everything. Sickle you ass

        Loading editor
    • ...So basically Sickle is a bored kid playing The Sims.

        Loading editor
    • Octofan wrote:
      I definitely think the experimentation line is supposed to refer to Seth--although technically riots and desruction are less specific actions to be attributed to one person, I think it is probably referring to Pale. I can't say it's safe to say it on their articles, but it's something to look out for. After all if Kiril has their same genes, it would make sense that they too have his condition. 

      Agreed.

      Octofan wrote:
      It does seem like Project 'Ma's purpose, in this context, was in part to get rid of all the HERs, yes. Makes sense with all the populace losing hope in the project as the years go by with HERs on the rise.

      Do you suppose it was a secondary or primary goal next to cleansing the Sin? For all we know, the Sin could have been considered the source of the rampant HER in the first place (Radiation anyone? <u<) and that's how that's connected, with HERs being the "Dark Legacy" or something like that. Or else it was a secret agenda of the higher-ups.

      Keep in mind that the line from our latest translation is:

      "Indeed, I could not escape the fate of a ghoul child. The person who had my same appearance was spreading malice in this country. The mass outbreak of HER― Was it not a sign of its destruction?"

      Makes it sound a lot less like an everyone thing. The translation could be wrong but something to note. Either way, I'm curious if all the OSS albums up til this point are just telling us the public reason for Project Ma. Perhaps Maria's prophesy was bogus and they were actually trying to eradicate HERs via the project?

      The other option I can think of was that they believed (or is that) Sin is connected to HER and therefore other things as well.

      Octofan wrote:
      I also wanted to discuss the line: Because the creator so decided, I.R. was born. (Especially since the preceding lines state IR was born to make the world more interesting.) Is it reasonable to assume this is referring to Sickle, and that from there we can conclude Sickle introduced HER (or at least Irina's HER) to heat things up?

      We already have Sickle called the "creator" by mothy, if I'm not mistaken, in his summary for Heavenly Yard, and in that short story Sickle similarly seems not to mind the Seven Deadly Sins' presence because they add "spice" to everything. Sickle you ass

      I was thinking that too. The only other option I could think of is that Irina was an artificial human/ghoul child as well and that someone else created her for his/her amusement. But I agree, considering mothy's habit to leave hints for future releases, I wouldn't be surprised.

      But since Sickle's also confirmed himself to be a mere observer, not involved in the world of humans beyond what he set up, I have a hard time imagining he said "Meh... bored... LET'S HER IT UP!!!"

      Octofan wrote:
      ...So basically Sickle is a bored kid playing The Sims.

      Hey, when you're god, you got nothing better to do than create worlds to satiate your curiosity and boredom. XD I get the feeling arguing with Levia all day wasn't his cup of tea. :P


        Loading editor
    • I took the time to scan the latter half of Chapter 6. The details are shaky but I do have some info:

      • Kachess and Elluka have a scene in a Lasaland inn; it's there that they "team up" and Elluka explains that the trinket Kachess has is what she wants when everything's over.
      • After their meeting (where they seem to get into a heated argument), Kachess tells Toy he's sorry and I assume this is where he goes off on a tangent.
      • I.R. steals Lukana's body, expecting the Duke to fall to ruin soon, and raids his storehouse for the katana before she bails out.
      • Maylis tells Veno that someone's on the first floor so he heads over to see Lukana there, stealing from the storage; he's surprised to see it's I.R. and questions what she's doing.
      • I.R. is clear about her intentions and Sati doesn't hold a grudge (since she did save him from his suicide); that said, he refused to let her take Lukana.
      • When they're about to have a stand off, I.R. decides to let him temporarily keep her for himself and takes Haru and leaves with the vessels.
      • Sateriasis refuses to believe he'll come to ruin soon or his powers will fail; he seems to be a bit stressed by Elluka's visit (she visits earlier and keeps her head low so as to avoid eye contact).
      • When Elluka visits again (I'm not sure if Kachess visited twice or the first time it was the real Elluka and then Kachess came the second time).
      • Sateriasis lets "her" in and, still refusing to let I.R. have the last laugh, invokes his power on the mage.
      • It seems to work and he's confident in that so ignores the fact a powerful mage would be carrying around a key to unlock things (since I.R. didn't seem to need to do that).
      • They enter the basement; it's after this that Sateriasis asks Elluka to a dance before being cut off (stabby stabby).
      • Kachess calls him a fool, Sati's shocked "he" wasn't a woman, Kachess scoffs how unbelievable it was he fell for it (really playing the a-hole card her Kachess... though you're right...).
      • Kachess searches for Yufina, triumphantly proclaiming that he killed "Duke Venomania!"
      • Venomania can't believe he's bleeding; he seems to reference a battle with Marquis Donald (which I'm assuming means his bleeding stopped shortly after any injury and quickly healed).
      • He calls for the demon, only for the demon to respond with "How boring. It's over already?"
      • The Demon explains how the Golden Key Kachess carried did this to the Duke and was a vessel of sin inhabited by one of its "companions/fellows/friends"; the Duke tells him to stop messing around with that stuff, worried for his life, and tries pleaing how the demon too would die if he died.
      • The Demon cuts off his statement: "You will die. I'll just return to the sword. For a thousand years... maybe for a million years. Until I find a new host."
      • I believe he then says "Well, goodbye. Say hello to the Master of the Hellish Yard." The Demon's voice then disappears and Sateriasis' face changes back to its original, deformed form.
      • There's an entire scene dedicated to Venomania monologuing about his past and how he felt, wishing he was his brother (the jealousy driving him to murder them all).
      • While he can't talk, the narration implies he's reaching out trying to explain to Gumina that: "I'm not Sateriasis. I'm Cherubim. I haven't yet told you that I love you!" Then we get the "Venomania's Harem: 0 people" at the end of the chapter.
        Loading editor
    • These demons sure get bored easily XD

      I wonder if Elluka (the real one) actually visited Venomania in that first time. I mean, her not looking directly into his eyes could either mean that Kachess didn't want him to find out he was a male or Elluka was trying to avoid to fall enchanted to the demons powers.

      Anyway, it looked like Sateriasis was indeed kind of dumb. I mean, he even received a warning and all, I didn't expect for his fall to be THAT stupid. XD

        Loading editor
    • From reading the chapter, the focus of the last chapter is sort of the quickly spiraling downfall of the Duke. He even refers to his harem as his "utopia" after he gets stabbed. All the scenes leading up to that are about his desperation to maintain what he has when his grasp over the situation is quickly slipping.

      The same thing is what happened with Elluka. I.R.'s sudden departure and telling him he would inevitably fall in his current situation pushed him to try escaping that fate, and he got cocky in the belief that he did keep Elluka.

      It's definitely stupidity, but I think the pathos is in the fact he can't maintain what he created. Earlier in the chapter there's Sateriasis freaking out because Gumina's drawing Cherubim.

        Loading editor
    • Sateriasis as in Duke Venomania or Sateriasis as in Sati?

        Loading editor
    • 64.251.53.99 wrote:
      Sateriasis as in Duke Venomania or Sateriasis as in Sati?

      That doesn't exactly help with any clarification. XD

      I'm assuming you mean the scene I mentioned with Gumina. In that case, Sateriasis as in Cherubim.

        Loading editor
    • To be fair, Kachess as he's drawn outside of the PV is rather feminine-looking. I don't think he quite realizes HOW feminine looking if he thinks it stupid Venomania fell for it, since we've seen his art in the actual novel and... Yeah, Kachess, I love you, but you can look very womanly. :P

        Loading editor
    • Personally, I think it depends on the artist. If this was Ichika's style, where it's literally everyone has the same face, just swap the hair, I could totally be fooled by it (save for the obviously fake wig).

      If this was Suzunosuke, then yeah, it's really obvious that Kachess is a guy.

      Also, I actually bothered looking through the script for the Venomania manga and it actually provides a bit more details compared to the song. It specifies the locations of each scene and actually provides dates where the manga itself doesn't.

      Stuff like a confirmation that Venomania made his contract in December of EC 135. Nothing major but nice details.

      I'll be scanning it so we can easily get a transcription anyhow so I'll look through and see what other details I can dig up.

        Loading editor
    • The manga and novel art made Kachess pretty androgynous, though I wonder if that was more in response to how the Duke was fooled than anything else.

        Loading editor
    • 67.67.11.118 wrote:
      The manga and novel art made Kachess pretty androgynous, though I wonder if that was more in response to how the Duke was fooled than anything else.

      If I remember correctly, Ayumi Kasai is a yaoi manga artist. Her style is made for that bishonen style; she also did that one illustration of Michaela and Clarith, and the one with Carlos and Banica. It's very distinctive in that regard.

      Like I said, it honestly depends on the artist. Some artists, like Kyata and Suzunosuke, portray Kachess as an arguably handsome young man with clear masculine traits.

      Other artists like Ichika or Ayumi Kasai can get away with him looking more feminine/androgynous because of their style.

        Loading editor
    • Some points I am late to but want to bring up:

      The Demon of Lust being so blase about the Duke getting stabbed ruins any theories of him being damaged by the key, I suppose. <u<; I guess it was just because Banica had actually absorbed it into her system. That or the demon just didn't realize what was going to happen to it. 

      Also, did it specifically speak about Wrath in a way implying they were on good terms? I find that kind of interesting when it's been shown Wrath is damaging to the demons in particular. 

      Do you think the Marquis Donald thing is in the novel itself, or is it just glossed over in a time skip? That'd be sad if it was <O< But I wanna learn more about this Donald family. 

      Aaaand the demon also mentions the Master of the Hellish Yard here. Do you think it was going off superstition, or was that actually where bad people were going until the end of the world?

      Finally, it is just hilarious to me that Kachess stabs Venomania once, laughs triumphantly, and just walks off to find Yufina while Venomania is having this meltdown. That doesn't sound especially wrathful <u<

        Loading editor
    • I agree. Nothing wrathful about Kachess. He, like Carlos, doesn't seem to ever get affected by the Demon of Wrath (yet Clarith and Yvette did... interesting...).

      Kachess also has a pretty premeditated and well thought out plan. I can't see someone who was affected like Clarith.

      In fact, looking back at the scene, it seems pretty much that Kachess was under the presumption it was just some sort of advanced technology or something, then Elluka tells him what it is and that she wants it. Afterwards, Kachess also seems outraged at (I guess) Elluka trying to have them take their time when Yufina's in danger.

      Then the scene ends with him apologizing (mentally) to Toy and then he goes off on his crossdressing plan.

      I'll look back at the scene though, since I also want to say the key turns into a "cross" when he pulls it out but I'd need to double check.


      Since Sickle and Held imply no one's going to Hell in the Third Period, I'm curious how any of the Demons would be aware of the Master of the Hellish Yard, especially considering she's supposed to live in (potentially) the First Period (or at least some other world/dimension).

        Loading editor
    • Maybe if you sell your soul to a Demon even Sickle can't forgive you and you get sent to Hell. So Hell has only about 10 people in it.

        Loading editor
    • Then Held wouldn't be complaining that Sickle doesn't segregate anyone, even HERs, by whether they were good or evil.

        Loading editor
    • I think I figured out what the "Babul Desert" is supposed to be referencing.

      It's spelled as バーブル (Baaburu) but if you change the spelling slighty, it becomes パープル (Paapuru), meaning "Purple".

      Considering Asmodean's associated with Venomania (ie, Gackpo), and their primarily associated with the color purple, I think it's a good chance mothy used a word play for its neighboring desert.

        Loading editor
    • Burple desert? That sounds like a nasty place

        Loading editor
    • 8C

      ......I mean since the romaji is pounting in that direction, it looks very likely. I just--Burple is one of those words you make up when you're struggling to think of a rhyme to Purple. I guess I don't have a problem with it, given some of the odd names we've had before, though. 

      EDIT: Misstress and I came to the wrong conclusion ouo;; It's "Burble"

      That is actually kind of funny since "burble" is the sound credited to running water, but it's in the middle of a desert. I like it XD

        Loading editor
    • Burble guys, not Burple (sounds like a fictional burp monster XD).

      I'd suggest Burble Desert as a name, if anything. It's definitely a little more obvious than mothy's other word puns (cough cough Conchita names and Rolled/Rollam cough).

        Loading editor
    • After a quick search on Google, I can confirm that バーブル is romanized into a number of different ways. "Babul" or "Babol" is Iran, and "Babur" was the first Mughal emperor and conqueror and blah blah blah I don't feel like reading the Wikipedia article. Considering that these are already existing words, they might be what mothy was hinting at.

      I'm also very reminded of "bubble" バブル.

        Loading editor
    • I think a name should be changed:

      Rindo to Rind. Rind was a princess in norse mythology that Odin bound and raped. Odin that had plenty of kids with a bunch of women.

        Loading editor
    • I don't know about the norse myth part but I have no issue with us changing it to that. I am getting some results for Rindo as a name though so I am not sure which would be the best translation.

        Loading editor
    • I mean Venom Rind might be named after myth Rind. The Princess part could be refrense to Riliane.

        Loading editor
    • That would make sense. I can see that (it took me a second to figure out "Venom Rind" didn't refer to Sarah XD).

        Loading editor
    • Well guys, in been a while since I've visited this wikia and after check some articles I've noticed the 'ice cream' trivia regarding Kachess' surname was removed from his article.

      Already I've argued that the 'crime' /kraɪm/ reference is more farfetch'd than the 'ice cream' /aɪs.kriːm/, specially if you compare the romanization. (クリム Kurimu vs アイスクリーム Aisukurīmu)

      Besides, this follows the same pattern seeing with other characters from the arc, where the surname is a direct reference to the VOCALOID counterpart or the respective character item, like Mikulia Greeonio, Gumina Glassred or Lukana Octo.

      P.S.: On a sidenote, it's evident mothy was really inspired for the names in this arc. There are a lot of names that have funny puns or wordplays, like Teto Cetera (pun to 'etcetera') o Neru Neruneru (reference to name of a Japanese candy brand), etc. A shame we can't add a trivia for all the minor characters...

        Loading editor
    • I concur with Adept-eX, the cream connection is a lot better than the crime connection.

        Loading editor
    • I agree as well, it makes more sense to me.

        Loading editor
    • Given the romaji comparisons and the pattern you described I also agree that it's a more solid connection.

        Loading editor
    • I agree. I think it's better off that way, especially with the romanization.

        Loading editor
    • That drama cd is just fanservice/fanfiction, well i'm dissapointed

        Loading editor
    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      That drama cd is just fanservice/fanfiction, well i'm dissapointed

      It is what it is. It followed suit with other 3rd party releases done outside mothy's personal works.

      Also, if no one else has any objections by the end of today, I'll be giving a pass on the trivia.

        Loading editor
    • I mean it's would have been cool if it would have been a little diffrent from the novel, but the plot is just "You" falling in love witht the duke and he loves you back and then "you" murdering him and that is really the lowest of lows

        Loading editor
    • Lowest of the lows would be that CD being canon and you being Josephine. 

        Loading editor
    • Taken from this comment.

      Again, the epilogue goes over the two vessels being the sword and the doll, hence the elaboration on their specific name origins.

      And no, he didn't let her take the sword out of arrogance. He refused to betray her, even if she was betraying him; he openly acknowledges she's the reason he is where he is by then. The only point of contension was Lukana, who he also refused to let go, whether he had the power to defeat her or not.

      I.R. openly admits she could acquire Lukana at any time and tells Veno to his face that he'll eventually lose his remain power without the sword (and that his kingdom will collapse). This is where his arrogance kicks in down the line afterward in the narrative.

      And once again, Sati only ever went on this journey when I.R. threatened him; he was disinclined to going until that point. How is it suddenly in his best interest to take the tool/potential vessel for himself? If I.R.'s going to lie, why not say it at the outset instead of waiting til the Duke has the tool and acknowledges it as a vessel?

      I.R.'s Sati's enabler and facilitater. If he betrayed her, he shoots himself in the foot. If she chooses to leave, he'd have to accept it. Neither of them gain from deceiving one another over a vessel/magic tool in this scenario. Irina ends up getting two vessels out of the event, the doll and the sword.

        Loading editor
    • I think it's a good trivia for the Venomania Event article that most of the characters represented by a VOCALOID, or similar, who were involved in that arc, have ellaborated wordplays and puns in regard their names.

      As we can't mention the individual puns for the minor characters, I think it's worth mention somewhere else

        Loading editor
    • Look. Trivia. Trivia everywhere.

      A while ago it was decided that "cream" seemed to be a closer connection to Crim than "crime" could be. 
      Wow that was quite the sentence.
      Now I'm here to ask to completely have the "crime" trivia point removed. Even with its use of katakana, it's something that could only barely make sense in English and even then it's a crappy pun

      While puns in said language can completely be intentional, mothy doesn't exactly seem like a guy who is one with this language. In other words, well enough to do that. And the way I see it, the very meaning of it is something of a stretch.

      The poor guy has only 3 trivia points and they're all about his name. But the first one...I'm just not buying into the first one.

        Loading editor
    • TheKindEvilliousResident~ wrote:
      it's something that could only barely make sense in English and even then it's a crappy pun

      You say this in a series with Sateriasis Venomania, Nemesis Witnis/Witness Truth, Ron Grapple, and Neruneru Nerune? There are a lot of crappy puns and wordplays here.

      As for the suggestion, I have no issue whether it stays or leaves.

        Loading editor
    • Can we bring up the discrepancy of Veno's birth year here? The SSP profiles say EC 115, but I think other sources say EC 113. Which sources say the latter, and which one are we going to trust?

        Loading editor
    • It's not a discrepency (I made the same mistake initially). It's using "Sateriasis Venomania's" birth year, not Cherubim's. Cherubim was born in 113. Sati was 115.

        Loading editor
    • In my opinion, the crime trivia is not that... Solid as the others. We can see that in Venomania arc, lots of characters have last names related to their respective Vocaloids. Mikulia, a Miku character, Green Onion. Lukana, a Luka character, Octopus, or Tako Luka. I think the same goes to Kachess, a Kaito character, Ice Cream.

        Loading editor
    • ...I still always associated Crim with crimson. Like blood. Like what Kachess spills.

        Loading editor
    • I care not either way personally whether the trivia stays or not. It's superfluous one way but neither deniable either. However, I think Resi presents the best argument apropos to it.

        Loading editor
    • To be honset I don't think the average fan needs a trivia point to know that mothy is refering to vocaloid character items but welp. Yeah the crime trivia- remove it for reasons Resi has stated.

        Loading editor
    • Coppélia wrote:
      To be honset I don't think the average fan needs a trivia point to know that mothy is refering to vocaloid character items but welp.

      It's best to point it out for the new or non-Vocaloid fans. I can tell you that most of this stuff would go over my head, as I primarily listened to Rin and Len and had no care for the Vocaloid fandom as a whole. It'd be in poor taste to assume all EC fans are well-versed in vocaloid as a whole.

        Loading editor
    • Well considering I didn't know Len's and Rin's symbols were a banana and orange until just a couple days ago, I don't think those references can just be assumed. I know hardly anything about most of the vocaloids as it is, let alone what kind of items they possess. I don't think they should be removed. 

        Loading editor
    • Okay, to be fair, it isn't any sort of must-know to someone who wants to get into EC.

      It's just trivia. And this is an out-of-universe trivia point to top it off. In the case that Abyss brought up of Vocaloid-character items, there's consistency and there's actual evidence to the fact. It isn't needed by any means, but there's no reason that it doesn't belong, at least in the trivia.

      However. Crime. I want to get rid of the crime point. This:

      "His last name, Crim, seems to be a pun on the word "crime", referencing Kachess and Yufina being hunted down after Duke Venomania's murder."

      My reasons can be found just a few replies above.

        Loading editor
    • I give my consent to the consensus thing wherelike yeah we should remove the crime trivia because it's dumb and tenuous at best. >8I

        Loading editor
    • I never liked that crime trivia point... it's best to get rid of it.

      However pronunciation points to the ice cream reference

      Kurimu -> (translated to a normal noun) cream -> (translated as if it's a proper noun, such as a name) Crim

      i or ii in a romanization makes a long E sound, so kurimu is basically Engrish for cream.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, the "crime" point needs to go. Even though it makes sense in English, it doesn't in Japanese, especially given the different vowel sounds. Perhaps it can be changed to "Krim" or something to avoid confusion in the future?

        Loading editor
    • Crim is fine. It doesn't cause confusion imo and more closely matched the "Cream" pun you guys want. Now "Kachess" is another story entirely. Either way, I will give a pass on removing the crime trivia as extraneous for Kachess' name.

      Since we were on the topic, I decided to take another crack at any similar names to "Kachess" (other than "car chase"). While no exact name results popped up on a preliminary google search for カーチェス (Kaachesu).

      But, カーチス (Kaachisu) did come up as the name for Curtis/Curtiss. Now a variation of the name is in fact "Curtess" which would logically follow the added "e" pronunciation included in カーチェス.

      So that's the best I could come up with for a real life name translation: "Curtess Crim". Thoughts? I got over Maylis and Sateriasis pretty quickly, but this one will probably take me a while, if we agree to change it.

        Loading editor
    • I'm all for Curtes.

        Loading editor
    • I am going to point out right now that Kachess is an actual name in the US, although rare in usage, as you can see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kachess_Lake I am curious about how the Japanese romaji spelling of that name would look, and if it would be identical to the Japanese of Kachess' name, as opposed to right here where the romaji is just similar.

        Loading editor
    • I've tried looking it up and the closest search result that comes up for me is "Curtice Lake" (カーティスレイク). I agree, it'd be interesting to see if it matches up (and I think the only potential different would be a lack of a stress on the "a" sound, making it カチェス).

      As far as カーチェス, it is true that the stress is commonly used to mimmick a "ar", "er", or "ur" sound, like how Taan makes "Turn". We also had Martius which also had the "ch" turn into a "t" sound. It sounds odd to me, but it is what it is.

      Curtess is the best deduction I can make, given how the "e" sound is a very minor change overall to the name of Curtis/Curtiss, considering it just changes the "i" to said "e" sound.

      Granted, we don't know what mothy is intended with this name, other than its Japanese spelling/pronunciation to be derived from KAITO,  so I am not sure how likely using the obscure name of a US lake would be vs a (I'd say) obscure real person's name.

      So for me, it comes down to whether or not the close similarity to Curtis/Curtiss is strong enough to believe mothy took the name from there or just happened to make up a similar name by coincidence.

      Given he chose rather simple ways of "western namizing" Vocaloid names (Lukana, Mikulia, Gumina) but had more radical ways of doing it when there was specific rl name or purpose in mind (Maylis), I feel Kachess would fall in the same boat.

      It's a really tough situation imo.

        Loading editor
    • Honestly, I vastly prefer Kachess as a name. And since it doesn't seem to match Curtess/Curtiss/Curtis exactly, it seems pretty up in the air. And Curtis just... Doesn't feel like a fit? But that's my own feelings. Granted, I always figured Kachess' name was a pun in itself, referencing the GAME of chess (ha ha, stolen queen) with the Ka sound at the beginning to reference Kaito. :x A lot of the characters don't seem to have real names (I've certainly never heard of Yufina, for example, and of course, Neruneru) except for certain ones in the Lust arc.

        Loading editor
    • I certainly prefer Kachess in terms of what I'm used to hearing for the past 2 years and I'm sure that goes double for fans that have been around for longer.

      It isn't that it doesn't match "Curtis/Curtiss" exactly, but that it would seem to match "Curtess" though we can't find any solid source to back it up. It definitely doesn't match Curtis/Curtiss. There's an "e" sound in there that differentiates the two.

      There also isn't anything else though for "Kachess" as a name other than "Car Chase". Yet we have "Meirisu" which was a very deliberate name choice to match a real word/name (Maylis).

      I think it's possible this may be the case with Kachess, as mothy could've otherwise just made the names "Meikona" and "Kaitono" and been done with it.

      I think the chess thing is another possibility, but I haven't found anything (yet) that could support that name choice either.

        Loading editor
    • Maylis also had a familial naming system to back it up as a specific name (as opposed to simply Meilis), though. Kachess doesn't have much else to back up ANYTHING, which makes it a difficult name.

        Loading editor
    • That's very true, hence why I think it leaves us in a "tough" situation, as there isn't anything clear on what Kachess' name would most appropriately translate as. mothy's intentions aren't clear here.

        Loading editor
    • I think, then, we maybe should leave it as Kachess until further evidence comes up that it may be something different. We don't know if it's like Lukana, Gumina and Mikulia or if it's like Maylis. It just kind of IS.

      (Though I would far sooner believe a chess pun due to the stolen queen than a relation to a name that is a corruption of courteous for him--)

        Loading editor
    • (Also, further elaboration on why I assumed a chess pun: a pawn that reaches the opposite side of the board can effectively "steal back" its side's queen. Kind of like Kachess did.)

        Loading editor
    • Okay. I was actually encouraged to post this meta here, so I apologize for a third comment in a row. However, I can't actually edit, so. :x

      the Kachess as a Ka+chess and chess metaphors will be this topic.

      From the beginning, I always thought his name was a pun on the game of chess, and it made absolute sense to me. After all, from his perspective, the Lust arc is almost a chess game. You have him, a pawn, Yufina, the queen, and perhaps Elluka as the King (the piece we lose and it's all over, since I imagine all hope would be lost if she ended up bewitched). Kachess can only make specific, slow movements. He has to work past the other King's defenses. But, if he crosses the board successfully, he can become whatever piece he desires.

      Meanwhile, Venomania is the King of his own side. With that in mind, his mansion becomes his side of the board in his metaphor. He rarely leaves it as a safe haven, and when he does, he ruthlessly captures other pieces--which is what you DO in chess. You don't kill the other side, merely capture, and that's what he does to the women he comes across. Kachess' goal was always to take out the opponent's King, he just had to first discern where it was and how to get at it.

      Which he eventually did. And he eventually successfully navigated there, with some help from his own side's King. However, it was ultimately his careful navigation that earned him the opportunity to put the other King in checkmate. Venomania fell for a trick, thinking he'd have another piece to capture, and instead walked right into a trap.

      Therefore, Kachess both ended the game and successfully navigated to the other side of the board in the same movement. Thus allowing him to become any piece he desired. In this case, a King. /o/

      And that's a rough gist, though there's probably more I could go into when it's not 2AM, tho I did notice checkerboards are a common motif throughout the Lust saga... (the floor of his mansion in the PV, Haru's sleeves have the diamonds, the background in the one pic from the novel with Venomania embracing Kachess has the checkerboard pattern just to name a few, tho that may be mere coincidence.)

        Loading editor
    • Interesting chesss theory.

      Personally, I prefer Kachess as it's a real name and very close to カチェス. The Kachess Lake mentioned by Octo uses this translation. 

        Loading editor
    • I'm glad you find it interesting.

      And really? o: I guess that might seal the deal, then, so to speak?

        Loading editor
    • It's hard to think about this without the it's-what-I'm-used-to thing in the way, but given ,uh, this I'd go for keeping it. The fact that it, unlike Maylis, doesn't have any given word/name aside from car chase to back it up, along with what Lemmings gave us, makes that decision for me.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, given that the word "Kachess" has been used as a name in the english language. I, too, will have to say I'd like to have it stay the same way. Even with big preferences and all.

        Loading editor
    • I say we stick with Kachess.

      And for the chess connection, we can still have that even with the name staying put.

        Loading editor
    • I am seeing a lot of Kachess' and only one for Curtess so we'll stick with what we have until something changes regarding the name.

        Loading editor
    • Well, the last part of Chapter 2 is up and the narrator (cough cough mothy cough) was a bit of a tease here. We got a bit of the Behemo sect being elaborated upon before it is blatantly cut short to keep us wondering.

      Otherwise, there isn't much new to learn here, except that Mikulia is perhaps the easiest person for the Duke to add to his harem period.

        Loading editor
    • Mikulia is pretty much just like "I'll come, you don't have to ask me twice."

      I think that Chess connection (theory??) is pretty neat.

        Loading editor
    • It's a stretched "a". It's suposed to be an "r" in there somewhere.

        Loading editor
    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      It's a stretched "a". It's suposed to be an "r" in there somewhere.

      Karchess hardly sounds like a name. And Kartess isn't a name, either. I would except Curtess to sound slightly different from a very round a-sound.

      Also aren't there names with the stretched a-sounds that aren't r's? I could have sworn so.

      (Not to mention, apparently Kachess does translate to something close if not exact if what Master of Lemmings says above is true?)

        Loading editor
    • 67.67.8.132 wrote:
      Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      It's a stretched "a". It's suposed to be an "r" in there somewhere.
      Karchess hardly sounds like a name. And Kartess isn't a name, either. I would except Curtess to sound slightly different from a very round a-sound.

      Also aren't there names with the stretched a-sounds that aren't r's? I could have sworn so.

      (Not to mention, apparently Kachess does translate to something close if not exact if what Master of Lemmings says above is true?)

      She's referring to the common use of a stretched a sound to create a vowel+r sound (when used in the middle of a sentence, sometimes at the end). Most Evillious names do this. The only other usage is to affect the letter coming after the stretched sound, such as in Homer (ホーマー/Hoomaa).

      So what she's bringing up, in the case of Kachess, is that Kaachesu (like Kaachisu) should have that vowel+r sound. I am not sure if it absolutely has to in this case, but I bring up my previous comment on this topic:

      Servant of Evillious wrote:

      As far as カーチェス, it is true that the stress is commonly used to mimmick a "ar", "er", or "ur" sound, like how Taan makes "Turn". We also had Martius which also had the "ch" turn into a "t" sound. It sounds odd to me, but it is what it is.

      When you have the very similar カーチェス with only one added (vowel changing) katakana differentiating it from カーチス, it's hard to imagine there's much of a difference between Curtiss (Kaachisu) and Curtess (Kaachesu).

      I am not sure if Lemmings is speaking from personal experience or not, but I can't even find a name "Kachess" used for anything except the lake Octo also found in her search results and a ridge or similar USA landmarks. Closest thing I found was "Kachesse". None of these I have found in tandem with a Japanese spelling.

      That's what I can further contribute. I believe that is where Misstress is coming from but she can speak for herself on that.

        Loading editor
    • From Google maps: 
      Screen shot 2014-12-26 at 10.08.42 AM
        Loading editor
    • Servy is on point as always. Also Lemmings, Kachess lake is spelled diffrent, the a isn't stretched. What was it that servy brought up earlier Curtiss?

        Loading editor
    • Master of Lemmings wrote:
      From Google maps: 

      Thanks for the pic. That helps. As Misstress says, that's カチェス (Kachesu), not カーチェス (Kaachesu). It would seem that even us using Kachess as a translation would be incorrect in this case.

        Loading editor
    • So should we be using Curtis?


      I feel like Mothy needs to make a big book of EC NAMES IN ENGLISH

      but lol no.

        Loading editor
    • Like I said before, if we go with an option, Curtis/Curtiss wouldn't be it. That's (カーチス). The name option I brought up earlier was Curtess, which is phonetically the same save for an "e" sound being used instead of an "i" which is what Kachess' name does (カーチス).

      See the difference?

        Loading editor
    • Ah, ok. So Curtess is what were going with?

        Loading editor
    • That's a question for all of you. Given the last few posts, where does everyone stand on the topic now?

      I am personally more inclined for us to change it to Curtess now, seeing that Lemmings' source was off-basis and being unable to personally find anything else supporting another appropriate option. I'll have trouble getting used to calling Kachess by any other name, but I don't think it can be avoided in this case.

        Loading editor
    • I'm all for Curtess, It's going to be confusing sure but what can you do?

        Loading editor
    • I want to stick with Kachess, honestly. I really hate Curtess as a name, it doesn't sound right, and I think that the chess connections has far more ground than a name obviously derived from the word courteous (seriously, Curtess is only a few letters off an Kachess is not that courteous).

      Mothy has used made-up names before in this series, especially in Venomania. Lukana, Mikulia, Yufina, Neruneru, Tette Cetera, Nylpho, Ilotte, even Venomania's name itself... Most of the names in the Venomania arc are made-up unless there's some solid connection to something else. (See: Maylis.)

      It's a tough call, but honestly, Curtess is a name I despise for this character. And it's not just out of attachment to Kachess so much as the name just feels like it doesn't fit the character. And with no clear translation, IDK what to do on that front.

        Loading editor
    • Also, by the argument that it's only one katakana off from Curtis, it's also one katakana off from Kachess.

      カーチス カチェス カーチェス 

      Right?

      So it's hard to say which is correct in this case. It could be Kachess with the accent to draw out the a. It could be Curtess.

        Loading editor
    • 67.67.8.132 wrote:
      I really hate Curtess as a name, it doesn't sound right, and I think that the chess connections has far more ground than a name obviously derived from the word courteous (seriously, Curtess is only a few letters off an Kachess is not that courteous).

      To be fair, a number of mothy's names taken from real people don't seem to have any actual connection to the character (see Chelsea, Mariam, Kyle) unless you want to really start making speculations.

      I like the idea of the chess connection, but it would definitely be more believable if there were clear chess allusions being made for the character or more were shared with surrounding characters.

      But the theory revolves around the idea that Kachess (a "pawn") has a name alluding to the entire story scenario being a chess game, hence the idea it is supposed to be "chess", with Veno as the King, Yufina as the Queen, etc. Why isn't the name "Kapawn" then? Why would it just be "chess"?

      If mothy wanted to make a general chess allusion, why only have Kachess be in on the wordplay? Like mentioned, Maylis' connection got supported by her siblings setting a clear pattern in the names.

      Similarly, other eras are also pretty guilty of having a heavy mixture of made up and legit names (EFEC especially) and the fact the Lunacy story does use real names like Carol, Ferdinand, Donald, and Martius shouldn't be ignored either.

      It's a neat concept but it's derived from specfically looking at the "chesu" part of the name and not the "Kaachesu" name as a whole.

      As far as real names go, Curtess would be suitable based on the points made in previous posts. We could try changing it to another made up name (Kerchess, Karchess, Kurchess, etc) as well.

      My position on doing a made up name though is that it looks more like we're really trying to keep a speculated pun in there that has lots of holes, which is a bigger jump than I am personally willing to make. In that case, a real name like Curtess feels like a much safer bet to me personally.

        Loading editor
    • We're talking about a man who names his charaters Neruneru, pollo, Milky and Gallerian I'm not surpirsed if it's Curtiss

        Loading editor
    • Not to me. Kachess currently has weight as being familiar, and with a pattern especially in Venomania of a lot of the named characters NOT having real names (I will dig them up for comparison if I have to), especially as of the song and the reveal of Kachess' own name which was before the novel and the inclusion of most of those names, I think it's more likely he happened to throw a name together.

      And with both names one off, at this point, with no way to tell which one is correct, it's far safer to use the one that is most familiar.

        Loading editor
    • Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote:
      We're talking about a man who names his charaters Neruneru, pollo, Milky and Gallerian I'm not surpirsed if it's Curtiss

      I wouldn't be surprised if it were Kachess, either. :V Which is exactly my point. We don't know what he intended, we can only guess, and with it one off of either name, I think the safe bet right now is to stay with the familiar one until Mothy says otherwise.

        Loading editor
    • 67.67.8.132 wrote:
      [...] and with a pattern especially in Venomania of a lot of the named characters NOT having real names [...] especially as of the song and the reveal of Kachess' own name which was before the novel and the inclusion of most of those names, I think it's more likely he happened to throw a name together.

      You're focusing a lot on the use of made up names, but the most that I see in our minor char lists for the entire arc are done wih the primary intention of referencing the Vocaloid in its Japanese pronunciation (ie, romaji).

      Sometimes this resulted in made up names (see Lukana, Mikulia, Mewtant, etc.) and other times this resulted in real names (see Mickina, Carol, Maylis, etc). Maylis' name especially was shown long before her siblings entered the picture, so to just assume mothy threw the name together to get in a chess allusion is a huge assumption, considering he had already threw together a slew of names for the song itself.

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      And with both names one off, at this point, with no way to tell which one is correct, it's far safer to use the one that is most familiar.

      1) Regarding Keeping the Most Familiar

      I would agree with you on this, if the evidence firmly reopening this discussion wasn't a picture objectively showing that カチェス was the proper spelling for Kachess and not カーチェス. With what's bee presented so far, "Kachess" should be changed to maintain accuracy. The question left is to what.

      2) Regarding Boths Being One Point Off

      The two changes are simply not equal. You're making a purely quantitative analysis without looking any further in-depth.

      Adding a to チス simply turns a "chi" sound into a "che" sound. We see this in names like Elphegort  (エルフェゴート), where the ェ turns what would normally be "fu" (フ) into "fe". So logically, it makes sense for a ェ added to Curtis/Curtiss (カーチス) to simply change it to "Curtess" (カーチェス).

      The other change is adding a katakana stressing the "Ka" sound into "Kaa", making "Kaachesu". This has already been demonstrated to have a huge affect on the spelling with Curtis/Curtiss, which also has the same カーチ (Kaachi) use to create the "Curti". This has been demonstrated many times in other foreign names/words in the Japanese language. 

      ___________________________________________________

      Yet despite these two points, you're continiuing to insist keeping it at "Kachess" for familiarity reasons, regardless of facts presented against it. I already made several suggestions of names that keep a chess spelling. You can make your argument for those or present your own. But to cling to solely the "Kachess" spelling at this point without giving support to overturn the previous points made isn't helping imo.

        Loading editor
    • I will be honest: a fair number of people (I can name five ncluding myself) want to keep Kachess based on familiarity/because Curtess doesn't sit right as a name with them because they feel there's enough information to get used to and find any name changes of long-established names to be rather annoying and frustrating on top of the slew of other information we're getting that isn't just superficial. It's one more thing to get used to, one that, in this case, was supposedly firmly established long ago. It's something that could be re-opened later when we're not knee-deep in other information (like the bomb with Irregular maybe not being who we thought he was, or at least not in the way he thought he was).

      (Also, if you're arguing accuracy, I believe someone earlier said that then his surname should be Cream instead of Crim, but I don't see that being debated.)

      IDK. I guess my opinion is to at least leave it for now--which does seem to be the common sentiment. Maybe re-open later when things are less confusing or there isn't a ton of information being thrown at us. I'm honestly frustrated by some of the name changes, especially since as some people on Tumblr have said, they don't really add or take away from the story and, I quote, "seem needlessly nitpicky at this point."

      I'm being stubborn, yes, but so are you, and I'm extremely frustrated. There's enough information already to process, sudden name changes aren't helping. And I already know a few people who are becoming extremely frustrated with debates over established names without Mothy revealing an English translation for older names (see: Riliane vs Rilliane, Chirkrasia vs. Chirclatia).

        Loading editor
    • I really hate saying this but I think at this point unless mothy comes out and says that he made a typo or wanted us to pronounce the "a" with an accent, we can't keep Kachess as it is. 

      I would be okay with Kurchess, Karchess, Kerchess, any of these names if they can be supported. Curtess leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, but it's starting to sound like an Eldoh/Held situation to me orz

      Maybe mothy will someday give an English spelling (I mean he's releasing so much SDS merchandise it isn't impossible) as Kachess and it can be a Chirkrassia/Chirclatia situation instead.

        Loading editor
    • I'm fine with Curtess??

      Oh god, I can't spell variants of the name unless its Curtis.

      Oh lord


      (I still write Rilliane instead of Riliane Sue me )

        Loading editor
    • Personally, anything less than Kachess just sounds stupid to me, I'm sorry. Nothing else flows as well. You need to keep in mind this is also stuff we've had established for ages. It's not as simple as changing Sateriajis to Sateriasis.

      Personally, I don't understand why all of a sudden this has to change???????

        Loading editor
    • 67.67.8.132 wrote:
      I will be honest: a fair number of people (I can name five ncluding myself) want to keep Kachess based on familiarity/because Curtess doesn't sit right as a name with them because they feel there's enough information to get used to and find any name changes of long-established names to be rather annoying and frustrating on top of the slew of other information we're getting that isn't just superficial.

      I respect that and sympathize very much. It's never easy getting use to a change in information, especially when it comes to names. Regardless of what we change it to, it's going to suck for me and my muscle memory typing it for a while, I feel.

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      It's one more thing to get used to, one that, in this case, was supposedly firmly established long ago. It's something that could be re-opened later when we're not knee-deep in other information (like the bomb with Irregular maybe not being who we thought he was, or at least not in the way he thought he was).

      That sounds silly to me. When would we reopen it? In a month, when we'll be knee-deep in a full story? In a few months when we'll be knee-deep in Pierrot twists? Further down when there's something else.

      Yes, this conversation perhaps should've been had when the name first came out. That can be said about Sateriajis and Meilis as well, way back when. But whatever the reason, it didn't. We're having it now. This wiki has made name change discussions concurrent with huge loads of new information and plot twists before and will probably continue to do so.

      If it's a lot, I apologize, but there can always be some excuse to say "Why are we having this now" and it's a little late to say that at this point.

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      (Also, if you're arguing accuracy, I believe someone earlier said that then his surname should be Cream instead of Crim, but I don't see that being debated.)

      Fallacy. The last discussion on Crim was regarding trivia, specifically whether or not to remove the trivia speculating "crime" was a possible derivation and add trivia speculating that "cream" (from "ice cream") was a possible derivation.

      Please point out where someone said that Crim (クリム/Crimu) should be Cream (クリーム/criimu).

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      IDK. I guess my opinion is to at least leave it for now--which does seem to be the common sentiment. Maybe re-open later when things are less confusing or there isn't a ton of information being thrown at us.

      Regardless of the "common sentiment" (which I feel would prefer keeping Kachess for familiarity reasons, but you can't say objectively from the "five people" + myself/others you know in a much larger fandom), when this conversation happens doesn't affect that it will be happening, whatever the change ends up being. If you're feeling that you would feel more inclined to accepting an inevitable change in the future, why not get it done now and over with?

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      I'm honestly frustrated by some of the name changes, especially since as some people on Tumblr have said, they don't really add or take away from the story and, I quote, "seem needlessly nitpicky at this point."

      I apologize for that, but look at where you're having this discussion. A wiki. A fan information database. Ideally, our goal is to be accurate, which, yes, means we will (have) and probably continue to be nitpicky on things that are ultimatley trivial in the grand scheme of things.

      I've expressed this in discussions before and will say it again: This wiki is not word of god. Whether you go with our information or not is purely your decision. What we discuss here is strictly for what we end supporting in our articles.

      You want to say Meilis, Sateriajis, Marchiusu, Asmodin, Madness of Duke Venomania, etc? Go right ahead. Not like I or anyone else here can enforce it. That's each fan's perogative. A choice on whether to use this wiki as your measuring stick. You can even pick and choose.

      Fans will ultimately go with what they want, regardless of what's "correct" even if it comes straight from mothy's mouth without a reasonable doubt.

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      I'm being stubborn, yes, but so are you, and I'm extremely frustrated. There's enough information already to process, sudden name changes aren't helping. And I already know a few people who are becoming extremely frustrated with debates over established names without Mothy revealing an English translation for older names (see: Riliane vs Rilliane, Chirkrasia vs. Chirclatia).

      You're extremely frustrating, eh? ;p

      I am being stubborn. I am doing so for a change I personally do not like but rationally cannot deny with the evidence provided, and so have provided my personal preference and deductive reasoning for that preference.

      If you're truly speaking plainly, then you're admitting your being stubborn due to your personal frustration with a change, independent of whatever evidence is provided for or against it. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

      As sad at the top, I sympathize with your desire, and even frustration, about a change. It's troublesome. But if you're frustrated that I or others oppose you with the basis provided, clearly nothing said or done here will satisfy you unless it goes in your favor.

      Veno's Pretty Hair wrote:
      Personally, anything less than Kachess just sounds stupid to me, I'm sorry. Nothing else flows as well. You need to keep in mind this is also stuff we've had established for ages. It's not as simple as changing Sateriajis to Sateriasis.

      The article for "Duke Sateriajis Venomania" was made on February 6, 2012. The name change from "Sateriajis Venomania" to "Sateriasis Venomania" was done on October 19, 2013.

      That's about a year and a half. I am not sure what you define as "ages" but for me and I'm sure at least a few others who came in from that February 6, 2012 up til that name change, it was the only name we knew and was around for as long as we were fans.

      Regardless, it was done. How is this much different than the current situation with Kachess? This goes double for a name like Meilis, which has been around since presumably the song. What's the different there either?

      Veno's Pretty Hair wrote:
      Personally, I don't understand why all of a sudden this has to change???????

      I gave a pass for us to leave Kachess as is int he original discuss due to the consensus and no clear evidence barring what we currently had.

      Misstress then brought up the Kaa vs Ka fact, which the anon spoke about and I elaborated upon. I may have misintepretted what Lemmings said in the original topic, but after pointing out I couldn't find his source for saying "Kachess" was spelled the same way in Japanese as the Japanese name for Kachess Crim, he posted a pic.

      Said pic shows "Lake Kachess" in the US with a different spelling than Kachess Crim's name, making the current translation being used incorrect. Unless another objective piece of information comes up, using Kachess for solely subjective preference ("It's been around for ages", "I hate all the other options") is nonsense.

      These same reasonings were used with Meilis and Sateriajis, but their old spellings were at least objectively correct in literally translating romanization (minus the "u" sound at the end).

        Loading editor
    • So better to have something that sounds like it's making fun of slurred speech patterns? (That's what I think of with names like Kerchess and Kurchess, honestly, and Curtess does the same thing to me.)

      I will continue to use Kachess regardless of your decision, which I think is a stupid one (inser the gif of Fury from Avengers here), and I'm sure a good portion of the fandom will, too. (and the number has since climbed to seven and seems to keep growing, but hey. What do I know.)

      have a nice life. I appreciate what you do for the wikia, but sometimes, I think you take it too far and vastly disagree with some things. Still, you're in charge, so I guess I can't do anything.

        Loading editor
    • 67.67.8.132 wrote:
      So better to have something that sounds like it's making fun of slurred speech patterns? (That's what I think of with names like Kerchess and Kurchess, honestly, and Curtess does the same thing to me.)

      You could argue the same with Kachess. The difference is one being ousted with the afformentioned pic.

      67.67.8.132 wrote:

      I will continue to use Kachess regardless of your decision, which I think is a stupid one (inser the gif of Fury from Avengers here), and I'm sure a good portion of the fandom will, too. (and the number has since climbed to seven and seems to keep growing, but hey. What do I know.)

      have a nice life. I appreciate what you do for the wikia, but sometimes, I think you take it too far and vastly disagree with some things. Still, you're in charge, so I guess I can't do anything.

      You seem to think I am making a decision on my own. There are others with opinions expressed here, some agreeing with you and others who do not. That creates a community discussion here and ultimately a consensus. If you disagree with me on things, so be it. I expect anyone to.

      But to say "my decision" as if to ignore everyone else in this thread insults me personally. If you wish to further discuss this, please take it to my message wall or my tumblr, as we'll be getting off-topic otherwise.

        Loading editor
    • I have no qualms with changing the name but I would prefer something similar to Karchess etc. over Curtess. Most, if not all, English names in the series sound similar aloud to their Japanese counterparts. Curtess holds a vastly different vowel sound in its first syllable to カーチェス. An "ar" vowel sound could be interpreted from the "aa" vowel sound yet "ur" is a large stretch. Keeping names similar to the source material gives readers of articles more accurate impressions about the source material.

      If the name Curtess is passed, an opportunity for trivia would be to note that Curtess is an English (country of origin) surnname.

        Loading editor
    • Master of Lemmings wrote:
      Curtess holds a vastly different vowel sound in its first syllable to カーチェス. An "ar" vowel sound could be interpreted from the "aa" vowel sound yet "ur" is a large stretch. Keeping names similar to the source material gives readers of articles more accurate impressions about the source material.

      Hmmmm, Curtis/Curtiss already shows a "Kaa" not being a stretch for "Cur". Similar scenarios for "aa" is Banner (バーナー), Bagaerts (ポガーツ), Burglar (バーグラー), Anchor (アンカー), Kirk (カーク), Turner (ターナ), etc.

      Considering we have names like "Kyle" that don't make the Kaito romanization pun (KAiru) obvious, I don't think we necessarily have to go with something like "Kartess/Karchess" but I can live with it.

      Master of Lemmings wrote:
      If the name Curtess is passed, an opportunity for trivia would be to note that Curtess is an English (country of origin) surnname.

      I can get behind that, if that's the choice.




        Loading editor
    • I like Curtess the best, what with it being a real name and all. And like Lemmings said, plus points for it being English (since Marlon = England). Hehe.

        Loading editor
    • Just my two cents but if there really must be a change, can we at least keep the K in his name? The Lust arc leads all (with the exception of Sateriasis and technically Maylis) have Vocaloid fueled names and it makes the sting of giving Kachess a name that's more often associated with hillbillies than Counts a little less painful.

        Loading editor
    • Honestly, Curtess doesn't even remotely fit well to me at all. Curtess, Curtis, or any variations of it, would be put into katakana as カテス(Katesu) rather than something like カチス(Kachisu). Heck, Kachisu still sounds remarkably similar to "Kachess", if you pronounce "Kachess" like "Kah-CHESS" instead of "KAAH-chess". Most people I've seen seem to pronounce it like the former instead of the latter.

      The whole reason the idea of "Curtis" or a derivative came about originally is because Servant of Evillious changed カーチェス (Kaachesu, the original Romaji) to カーチス (Kaachisu). Even then, "Curtis", "Curtess", or anything similar would be put in with a "te" sound rather than a "che" sound, if that's what was truly intended.

      Changing Kaachesu to Kaachisu is like changing Aren/アレン to Aron/アロン. Aren is the Romaji for Allen. You wouldn't still romanize "Aron" as "Allen", you would switch it to "Arron". Likewise, You can't translate Kaachesu as "Curtess" if that came from Kaachisu.

      Along with all of this, there has been absolutely nothing to confirm nor deny any romanized spelling of the name, so for all we know, it could be Kaachesu all along. I'm fairly certain that if "Kachess" was an error that was meant to be fixed, it would've been changed along with "Sateriasis" and "Maylis" a long time ago.

      Until we get confirmation from mothy himself, I vote that we leave Kachess as it is.

      Don't fix what's not broken.

        Loading editor
    • Well, Martius was derived from Maruchiusu (マルチウス) so I don't see why we can't do the same for Kachess.

        Loading editor
    • It could easily be Marchius, too, tho, IIRC. Martius was chosen as it's a "real name" whereas Marchius is not. (Although Febria is not, as far as I'm aware, so.)

        Loading editor
    • Curtis/Curtess is pronounced as "Cur-tehs", not "Cur-tihs". It's a short E sound rather than a long E, so the "te" katakana would be far more fitting than the "chi".

      Martius looks like it would be pronounced as "Mar-tee-us", not "Mar-teh-us". The ti that sounds like a long E would reasonably coming from the chi which uses a long E sound.

      Just because they're spelled similar in one part doesn't mean that one part is pronounced the exact same way. With English, or at least, words used in English (since English isn't universal when it comes to names or spelling), you have to look at the entire word in order to pronounce everything, you can't nitpick at one or two letters.

        Loading editor
    • Heck, we can overanalyze and nitpick at Kachess's name all day, but none if it matters at all to the actual canon of the story until mothy finally confirms what the name is supposed to be.

      For all we know, Sateriasis might still be wrong. I know we changed Meilis to Maylis because of the month-theme naming, but I don't recall seeing the reason for changing Sateriasis? Then again, I'll admit I can't bring myself to read the Lust novel as I'm very repulsed by the contents of Duke Venomania's actions, and I'm mostly just irked at what seems to be an unnecessary change with very little reasoning to back it up.

        Loading editor
    • Daisy8000 wrote:
      Heck, Kachisu still sounds remarkably similar to "Kachess", if you pronounce "Kachess" like "Kah-CHESS" instead of "KAAH-chess". Most people I've seen seem to pronounce it like the former instead of the latter.

      I am not sure if I am completely sold on that, but would a "Kahchess" or some other variation work for you to represent that?

      Daisy8000 wrote:
      Changing Kaachesu to Kaachisu is like changing Aren/アレン to Aron/アロン. Aren is the Romaji for Allen. You wouldn't still romanize "Aron" as "Allen", you would switch it to "Arron". Likewise, You can't translate Kaachesu as "Curtess" if that came from Kaachisu.

      Different scenarios. Ignoring mothy's spelling for it, discussing it would be result in us either going "Well Allen's a real name and that's the Japanese spelling for it," or "well we can't be sure so we'll go with _______". Regardless, we're be working with a working name. The above pic demonstrates a different spelling for "Kachess".

      Daisy8000 wrote:
      The whole reason the idea of "Curtis" or a derivative came about originally is because Servant of Evillious changed カーチェス (Kaachesu, the original Romaji) to カーチス (Kaachisu). Even then, "Curtis", "Curtess", or anything similar would be put in with a "te" sound rather than a "che" sound, if that's what was truly intended.

      I looked up Kachess Japanese name and the very similar name Curtis/Curtiss was the only version that came up. Said spelling has the "tis" as "chisu" (チス).

      Daisy8000 wrote:
      Along with all of this, there has been absolutely nothing to confirm nor deny any romanized spelling of the name, so for all we know, it could be Kaachesu all along. I'm fairly certain that if "Kachess" was an error that was meant to be fixed, it would've been changed along with "Sateriasis" and "Maylis" a long time ago.

      "Kaachesu" is the romanized spelling for Kachess Crim. Nowhere am I denying that. All sources spell his Japanese name カーチェス and unless I and everyone else here missed something, "Kaachesu" would be the proper romanization. The translation is a separate matter. It could be "Kaachesu" literally, just like we currently have Aai Freesis' first name as literally her romanization.

      And would mind elaborating on the "meant to be fixed part"? The only reason Sateriajis and Meilis were changed was because it was brought up in discussion, talked about, and then decided on that way. The same is being brought up here. The only reason this is being discussed now rather than earlier is that no one brought it up before.

      Daisy8000 wrote:
      Don't fix what's not broken.

      With the above pic showing a different spelling entirely for "Kachess", I'd say it is broke. Or does this tie into your first point about how you feel it would be pronounced?

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      It could easily be Marchius, too, tho, IIRC. Martius was chosen as it's a "real name" whereas Marchius is not. (Although Febria is not, as far as I'm aware, so.)

      Very true. For all we know, mothy would spell it as Marchius, Maruchiusu, Malchius, Maltius, or some other variation. Until he does so (if he does), we'll never know with 100% certainty. Even then, there are doubters when it comes to mothy's word still holding out on Eldoh. Even if the Japanese name for "Martius" is in fact Martius.

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      Don't fix what's not broken.

      You say that while a picture posted in this discussion shows a completely.

      Daisy8000 wrote:
      Heck, we can overanalyze and nitpick at Kachess's name all day, but none if it matters at all to the actual canon of the story until mothy finally confirms what the name is supposed to be.

      We can only hope.

      Daisy8000 wrote:
      For all we know, Sateriasis might still be wrong. I know we changed Meilis to Maylis because of the month-theme naming, but I don't recall seeing the reason for changing Sateriasis?

      Sateriasis' name is taken from the term Satyriasis (see our trivia). Said term is spelled, サチリアジス (Sachiriajisu) vs Venomania's name which is サテリアジス (Sateriajisu).

      The only difference is one katakana, (チ vs テ), so the suggestion agreed upon was to change "Sateriajis" to "Sateriasis" to match the "Jisu" also used in "satyriasis". For all we know, Sateriasis could be wrong. Perhaps the change of "chi" for "tyr" to "te" doesn't resut in a "ter" (though I don't know what else it could be except maybe "tehr").

      Daisy8000 wrote:
      Then again, I'll admit I can't bring myself to read the Lust novel as I'm very repulsed by the contents of Duke Venomania's actions, and I'm mostly just irked at what seems to be an unnecessary change with very little reasoning to back it up.

      I am not sure what constitutes "very little reasoning", but you never brought up the pic Lemmings posted and I've pointed out and you seem to be under the wrong impression that I brought up Curtess implying that the spellings of Kachess Crim's Japanese name and the Curtis/Curtiss Japanese name are identical, which I've expressly stated and demonstrated they're not.

      I suggested several potential changes besides Curtess as well, including "Karchess" (カー/Kaa is the term for "car" and why I joked about some of his results coming up as the similar "Car Chase").

        Loading editor
    • Honestly, if we have to change it (I still vastly prefer Kachess as a name due to how elegant it seems next to every other choice given), I'd prefer steering as far from Curtess as possible. For some reason, the name doesn't sit well with me at all. As well, Kerchess and Kurchess come out reminding me of how people mock slurred speech patterns, which is... honestly a more personal sensitive point with me, so I can see why others may be okay with those.

      And I get that Curtess is at least rooted in a real name, but next to names like Gumin and Lukana and Mikulia and Mewtant and even Witnis and Neruneru, I think Karchess wouldn't be too out of place.

        Loading editor
    • Just my two cents, even though the discussion seems to have moved on a bit:

      Considering the general trend of how Japanese loanwords work, it's very likely that the extended "a" vowel in Kaachesu is meant to denote an "r" being present. Especially considering it's at the beginning of the name. Extended "a" vowels don't usually get used otherwise unless it's to denote a particular "a" sound (like the one in plateau), as Japanese "a"s are exclusively pronounced as "ah".

      So to my thinking, either Kachess is supposed to be pronounced with the "a" in plateau (basically pronounced "catch-ess" instead of "kah-chess"), or there's an "er/ar" sound in it.

      ...Is anyone up for Catchess/Katchess as a name?

      I'm not an expert, and it's not an exact science, but that's my experience.

      For the record, I've seen at least 3 different spellings of "Curtis" in Jisho, none of which were カーチェス, although some did come close. (キュルティス、クルティス、カーティス、カーチス)

        Loading editor
    • Just a question, since it was brought up on Tumblr. Has anyone thought of actually tweeting Mothy about this? Since it seems we're having difficulty either way.

        Loading editor
    • We could. Although mothy's English isn't that great (although maybe it's improved?), so it's likely someone would have to write it in Japanese to clarify for him. Does anyone here know Japanese well enough to feel comfortable speaking to him about it? Obviously we can't just run it through Google Translate.

        Loading editor
    • 146.113.67.93 wrote:
      So to my thinking, either Kachess is supposed to be pronounced with the "a" in plateau (basically pronounced "catch-ess" instead of "kah-chess"), or there's an "er/ar" sound in it.

      ...Is anyone up for Catchess/Katchess as a name?

      I'm not an expert, and it's not an exact science, but that's my experience.

      Looking through similar words, "catch" would be キャッチ (kyacchi). I wouldn't know how it would work with names, as I've seen names like "Gast/Gust" (Gasuto) and "Gaston (Gyasuton) so I can't tell what's the rationale there. That's all I can add to what you're saying, unfortunately.

      67.67.8.132 wrote:
      Just a question, since it was brought up on Tumblr. Has anyone thought of actually tweeting Mothy about this? Since it seems we're having difficulty either way.

      I was told this was done in the past with little results (with his email). He's responded to at least one tweet that used a machine translation. But in terms of this discussion, I haven't heard anyone consider or do it themselves. Neither do I know how many tweets he generally gets or answers, particularly with this subject matter.

        Loading editor
    • At this point, it may be a good idea for someone to hit him up somehow and share the results. not me--I don't know enough Japanese to make sure that Google Translate is even remotely correct on what would be asked. :x

      As for the name, now that I'm fully awake: I would prefer Karchess or Kahchess over anything else for above stated reasons of mine.

        Loading editor
    • I can send him something and see if he responds. I don't mind. It's 4:50 AM Japan time so if he does respond, it would be within the next 12 hours.

      I'll ask for his reasoning behind the name choice as well and see if we get a Sati/Banica/Kayo explanation on the name origin.

        Loading editor
    • o> I will await it. If possible, may want to include some of what we've come up with as possibilities?

        Loading editor
    • If we go through with the change, I'd go with Karchess. It's close to the original and includes the extended A syllable. 

        Loading editor
    • I've given mothy a few days but he's only answered my initial tweet, not the subsequent response. Either way, the answer is pretty sufficient, divided into two parts:

      1) He didn't know the proper English spelling since he himself doesn't have English in mind when picking/making the Japanese names for the characters.

      2) He suggests "Karchess" as the English spelling. His reasoning cited was the name intentionally made a KAITO reference.

      I have been trying to get an explicit response on whether KAITO is the only reference as implied (which would decide whether the name's completely made up and whether it had any other references such as the proposed "chess" idea). But with no response, there's no elaboration on that front.

        Loading editor
    • Wait, Maylis's brother's name is currently Martius, right?

      And his siblings' names are Janus, Febria (obviously you can't fit all of February or January in a name and make it tasteful) Aprilis, and Maylis, either containing a part or all of their respective month name

      Shouldn't his name be Marchius instead?

        Loading editor
    • Karchess is far preferable to Curtess, TBH.

        Loading editor
    • I still like Curtess, given that it's closer to a real name. Just my personal preference.

        Loading editor
    • Aesthetics aside, since it's mothy's suggestion it looks like the most accurate course of action would be to go with Karchess. 

      I'd like to point out too that it's going to be harder to make arguments for mothy's intention of some of these more unusual names now that he's outright said he doesn't consider the English spelling of them when he gives them. XD

        Loading editor
    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      I still like Curtess, given that it's closer to a real name. Just my personal preference.

      Lukana isn't a real name. Gumina isn't a real name. Mewtant isn't a real name.

      The argument is kind of null and void when half the names in the series aren't real names, especially when, as Octo said, Mothy doesn't consider English names largely when he's coming up with the names for the character and that largely Karchess was a pun on Kaito.

        Loading editor
    • Like I said, it's just my personal preference. My point is, I like it because it's close to a real name. I never said that we should change it to that because it's close to real name. 

      Anyway, should we hold another vote given this new information?

        Loading editor
    • I don't comment often, but my personal preference is always gonna go to keeping it as Kachess.


      But I could DEAL with Karchess, I guess. idk.

        Loading editor
    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      Like I said, it's just my personal preference. My point is, I like it because it's close to a real name. I never said that we should change it to that because it's close to real name. 

      Anyway, should we hold another vote given this new information?

      I don't think it's a vote anymore when Mothy himself says "Karchess is most appropriate." I still vastly prefer Kachess as a name, but you can't exactly argue with the series creator. Then you might as well argue EVERY point of the story.

        Loading editor
    • Mothy never said it's the most appropriate. He just suggested it. (Also, I think Kurtess would also be okay since it continues the "K" trend of Kaito characters.)

        Loading editor
    • GreekTelepath wrote:
      I still like Curtess, given that it's closer to a real name. Just my personal preference.

      I feel the same. Still, I am changing my support for Karchess. It was another feasible option and mothy's explanation behind the choice sounds sound to me.

      Octofan wrote:
      I'd like to point out too that it's going to be harder to make arguments for mothy's intention of some of these more unusual names now that he's outright said he doesn't consider the English spelling of them when he gives them. XD

      It'll be harder without having an exact case. Not well documented names are going to require more research into them as well. Hopefully we won't have any more Milkicent's or other peculiar (and practically unheard of) real names being chosen in the future.

      67.65.248.98 wrote:

      The argument is kind of null and void when half the names in the series aren't real names, especially when, as Octo said, Mothy doesn't consider English names largely when he's coming up with the names for the character and that largely Karchess was a pun on Kaito.

      Octo said "English spelling" not English names. mothy's statement was he doesn't have English spellings in mind when making those decisions.

      Ie, save for the ones with English spellings he's actually posted over the years, he doesn't look up a name like "Kyle" and English. He picks it from it's Japanese spelling (カイル). Let's not twist what was being said.

      That's a fairly expected response from a guy who is natively Japanese and is self-admittedly not fluent in English. Same with Ichika's responses to fans expecting her to confirm stuff about works she only illustrated.

      Edit: (missed this one)

      67.65.248.98 wrote:Wait, Maylis's brother's name is currently Martius, right?

      And his siblings' names are Janus, Febria (obviously you can't fit all of February or January in a name and make it tasteful) Aprilis, and Maylis, either containing a part or all of their respective month name

      Shouldn't his name be Marchius instead?

      Save for Febria (which doesn't match anything exactly), all the siblings match real names/Roman months in their Japanese spelling, Martius and Aprilis being the months while Janus and Maylis are the names. Janus/Martius' cases are similar to how the Japanese spelling of Cherubim is literally "Kerubimu".

      I take more issue with their dad. "Jupiter" is spelled slightly differnetly in Japanese, so his name would be more accurately "Jupitair/Jupitare". Probably still referencing the god but I couldn't find anything matching exactly.

        Loading editor
    • Even Google translate returns something like "I think Karchess would be the most appropriate."

      I get you're attached to Curtess or Kurtess because REAL NAME, but you literally can't argue with the series creator on this just because you like a name better.

        Loading editor
    • Well, Google Translate isn't exactly a reliable source. Keep in mind that this is mothy's suggestion. He's not saying "it should be translated as Karchess, there it's canon". We asked him what he was going for when he made up the name, and he said that he wasn't really making it similar to a real name. However, mothy also made a suggestion in order to help us dispute the issue. He's not making it canon, and so we're not "arguing" with him. All we're doing is looking at other alternatives and determining their feasibility.

        Loading editor
    • Well, by that argument, GT, I think we should keep Kachess. If we're still debating names, that is. Otherwise, there was no reason to ask Mothy for his input. He said Karchess, whether we like it or not, and I've a feeling you wouldn't be arguing this if he'd suggested Kurtess/Curtess because it would align with your preference.

      And while Google translate isn't exactly reliable, it still usually gets a good idea of what's being said across.

        Loading editor
    • I agree, it may be a suggestion of his personal opinion, but the facts back it up and he was very clear on everything except the actual name origin (all we can say for sure is that it intentionally references KAITO [big shocker]).

      It's an informal tweet, but I didn't find any implication he wasn't considering his suggestion legitimate for canon (that was what was being asked of him in the first place).

      I don't think this issue is debatable. Of all the potential options, mothy thinks "Karchess" would be the most appropriate. This suggestion is what he believes makes the most sense for an English translation.

        Loading editor
    • What Servy said. We asked Mothy. Mothy responded. Whether we like it or not, we asked him and that's what he responded with. I agree it's not debateable, even if I don't like the name.

      Basically: Mothy always gets the last word, regardless of what we want or prefer.

        Loading editor
    • While you can argue mothy's statement was a suggestion rather than a cold hard "It is Karchess," it is a suggestion that he followed up with a reasoning by which we often, ourselves, try to determine names in this series-- "Karchess since it's supposed to be based on KAITO's name."

      We're purely arguing by aesthetic in cases like these, when the Japanese spelling does not perfectly match any pre-existing names. 

      Mothy's statement is a suggestion, but it is a tie-breaking suggestion, in my opinion, which trumps "Curtess looks more like a real name" which falls apart as an argument for accuracy when you have all these other not-real-name characters.

      And as you pointed out, he did tell us this to help solve the dispute. 

      Edit: Iwaitedtoolong

        Loading editor
    • 67.65.248.98 wrote:
      Well, by that argument, GT, I think we should keep Kachess. If we're still debating names, that is. Otherwise, there was no reason to ask Mothy for his input. He said Karchess, whether we like it or not, and I've a feeling you wouldn't be arguing this if he'd suggested Kurtess/Curtess because it would align with your preference.

      And while Google translate isn't exactly reliable, it still usually gets a good idea of what's being said across.

      Well, if that's what you believe, then fine. Stick with Kachess. We're asking mothy for his input so we can arrive at an agreement. Also, please don't accuse me of wanting to put Curtess for the sake of liking it. I am entitled to my opinion. It's as if you're saying that I contradicted mothy's suggestion for the sake of me liking something else. All I said was, my vote for what the name change should be is still the same. I never said that we should disregard mothy's suggestion. Please do not put words in my mouth. (Btw, I'm okay with Karchess if everyone else is.)

        Loading editor
    • GT, the thing is, we're saying that with Mothy's comment which we asked for, it's not up to a vote anymore. We asked and got an answer. It may be a suggestion, but when we asked because we couldn't arrive at a decision, then I don't find that something up to a vote or debate--even if I don't like the answer.

        Loading editor
    • I haven't seen anyone actually try to actually contend this tweet or what I posted and it seems everyone's at least accepting of the answer.

      Kachess Crim will be changed to Karchess Crim. I thank everyone involved for their continual input into this topic.

        Loading editor
    • GreekTelepath
      GreekTelepath removed this reply because:
      Whoops too late
      02:12, January 10, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • A bit too slow, GT. From what I gathered, Servy was simply informing us of Mothy's answer and the reasoning behind the name.

        Loading editor
    • It was still a suggestion, and Servy and Octo said so themselves. Also, it's a moot point now and there's no use arguing about it.

        Loading editor
    • GT's already removed his response after seeing mine. Let's not prolong an argument well past this point. There was a misreading on both ends of individual posts. Leave it at that and let's move onto Agni's or another point.

        Loading editor
    • Moving on, then, I definitely agree that, to match it up, it should probably be Marchius over Martius. While Martius is a real name, we already changed Meilis to Maylis because of the month theming of her and her siblings. I don't think he should be spared, so to speak.

        Loading editor
    • Alright then. Moving on, I brought up the same point before:

      GreekTelepath wrote:
      So there's some more name stuff I'd like to bring up. If Maylis' siblings follow a month theme in their naming, wouldn't it be more appropriate for "Martius" to be changed to "Marchius"?

      Is Martius being renamed "Marchius" now up for discussion? I mean, we now know mothy wasn't gunning for any real names.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with Marchius given the reasoning.

      Edit: To be specific, I agree with it because I think the "March" part is more of mothy's intention than a real name Martius, not because he didn't pick this from the actual spelling of Martius in Japanese. > >; Idk what kind of argument this is though

        Loading editor
    • 67.65.248.98 wrote:
      Moving on, then, I definitely agree that, to match it up, it should probably be Marchius over Martius. While Martius is a real name, we already changed Meilis to Maylis because of the month theming of her and her siblings. I don't think he should be spared, so to speak.

      Meilis was changed to Maylis because it was a real name that matched said spelling. There were two ends to that.

      GreekTelepath wrote:
      Is Martius being renamed "Marchius" now up for discussion? I mean, we now know mothy wasn't gunning for any real names.

      He wasn't gunning for real names in Kachess' case. He doesn't have English spellings in mind when picking/making his names.

      I would be like if a native English speaker chose the name "Akira" for a character and a Japanese fan asked how to spell that in Kanji (assuming there were multiple Kanji spellings for Akira). The creator didn't have Kanji in mind when picking it.

        Loading editor
    • I think the problem is, Servy, that with a clear pattern, to say he intended Martius over Marchius isn't entirely true. Marchius has obvious ties to the month, and with a sister named Febria, I find it hard to justify Martius over Marchius. But that is my own personal taste.

        Loading editor
    • 67.65.248.98 wrote:
      I think the problem is, Servy, that with a clear pattern, to say he intended Martius over Marchius isn't entirely true.

      I don't think there's a clear pattern in either case. Janus and Maylis are real names, while Aprilis and Martius are real month names in the Roman Calendar. Janus is a Roman god. Their father is clearly referencing the Roman god Jupiter. Long after descendant Juno Beelzenia is either referencing the real Juno or the month of June derived from said goddess.

      Only two of these don't exactly match anything their referencing: Febria and Jupiter (as I suggested earlier, Jupiteir/Jupitare would be more accurate imo).

      The others do. From my perspective. That isn't a clear pattern for either months or gods. There's not even a Roman pattern (see Maylis). They all are their own individual case of generally referencing Roman gods/months. 

      67.65.248.98 wrote:
      Marchius has obvious ties to the month, and with a sister named Febria, I find it hard to justify Martius over Marchius. But that is my own personal taste.

      Marchius definitely has obvious ties, as does Martius imo, the actual name of the Roman month. From where I stand, it's a matter of choosing a less Roman spelling vs. a more Roman spelling. Personally, since Maylis is the one current exception in that regard, I stick with Martius.

        Loading editor