Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-6192846-20140612134000/@comment-10608690-20140913235231

Aeon has pretty much covered what I would have repied with Octo, so I won't repeat that part AndbecauseI'mtoolazyforthatqoutingmess.

Octofan wrote: Coppélia wrote: Snip As I've argued above, of course, it is exactly whether or not you believe they are the same person. For your points, this is my personal opinion but maybe other people for merging have different views:

There is no reason to state outright that Gallerian's perception of her and then her having the title for one song is completely connected, or that her becoming Hellish is any kind of actual transformation.
 * We say that Gallerian perceived her as a Master of the Hellish Yard during the civil war and then that Nemesis was declared/declared herself Master of the Hellish Yard after testing Punishment. The phrase "I am become Master of the Hellish Yard" as a reaction to the first test of Punishment parallels the phrase "I am become Death" as a reaction to the first test of the atomic bomb.

For now we don’t have to say why Gallerian misperceived Nemesis, we just say he saw something/relates that he saw something different. You see, that's the problem. Once the wiki decides to merge the pages, their will be different opinions on what to interpret on the shakey Nemesis&MotHellY info. Everything would have to overlap perfectly, anything that would interfere with their connection will be altered. My thoughts on your answers:
 * We take mothy’s label of “Levianta Civil War (truth)” on MoN to support that Muzzle of Nemesis is what really happened.
 * Hellish is moved to Nemesis’ page. Her pictures as Hellish are maybe captioned as “Nemesis as the Master of the Hellish Yard” in reference to how Gallerian saw her and references are made to Nemesis being considered the master.
 * We say she referred to herself as that title/was referred to by that title (in Gallerian’s and the Theater’s case) but we don't have to assert much more than that.
 * I kind of agree with that theory but we all know the Masters have always had something special about them. MotC/MotGY are both awakened vessels with demon powers, welp we all know about Sickle's abilities, and what about MotHellY? Are you telling me she is probably a mere human who's playing dicator? Nemesis is a 7DS sinner, she relies on the vessel of Wrath to give her control over Punishment.
 * Ok so Mothy labled TMoN "Levianta Civil War (truth)". I'm guessing you're going to use that to say that Gallerian was hallucinating the MotHellY thing after all? Right, because Mothy meant that TMoN was telling the truth. So I guess that means Nemesis must really be the daughter of Gallerian and Ma (100% love affair).
 * If the  dictator  ends up merging their pages, than I would agree with Nemesis > MotHellY pages wise. Though that would mean the wiki would be saying she was born as Nemesis, commited wrath as Nemesis, and then became a dictator leading up to her MotHellY name...hmmm this reminds me of another case. Conchita was born as Bancia, commited gluttony as Bancia, and becoming one with the DoG she awakened as MotGY.
 * Though how do we know it's just a title, we don't know what happened behind the scenes. This is why we "don't have to assert much more than that" and can leave Nemesis' page as it is. No adding theoretical MotHellY song info (like many against-users have asked) until official evidence arrives.

67.66.94.125 wrote: Aeon, explain to me how two characters explicitly stated to take the same exact actions are somehow different characters. They both have a weapon called Punishment that is wielded with a Golden Key and Black Box. This is explicitly stated in the album booklet and the Hellish song. So unless there's somehow two version of the weapon, two Golden Keys of Wrath, and two boxes with Irregular in it existing in Evillious, they can't be two different people.

They're the same character. There is no way around it at this point. So yes, given they're the same character with no significant gap, they should be merged. That is accurate information. 1) It has been proven before with Kayo's scissors that vessel replica's are possible,

2) The Black box is suppose to contain Irregular aka "Punishment" but how on earth did she turned him into a weapon/bomb, and how did she get it if it's supposedly inside MotC/ Clockworker's Doll who lives inside Evil's Theater, which is located inside the forest she destroyed. Also why would Sickle put such a danergous weapon inside a black box that can be opened by a demon's vessel? This is what's starting to get me questioning this black box and "Punishment".

The thing is Anon, you don't understand what merging their pages would cause and there are ways around Nemesis=MotHellY, look at my reply below (last sets of bullets).

67.66.94.125 wrote: Okay, rather than that, I am going to be showing how they can't possibly be two different characters using the Muzzle Booklet and the Hellish song.

1. Nemesis is a former assassin (Last Revolver, Muzzle of Nemesis). She becomes a dictator. ''"Becoming the dicatator, Nemesis ordered the Elphegort army to invade the Lucifenian Republic." ''-Muzzle of Nemesis Album Book

2. Hellish is stated to be a former assassin that became a dictator. "' The assassin became a dictator;" -  Master of the Hellish Yard song 

3. Nemesis has the Golden Key. " The Golden Key that can activate the firing device, Black Box, is now─held in the hands of the Elphegort leader, Nemesis Sudou." - Muzzle of Nemesis Album Book

4. Hellish also has the Golden Key. " A golden key inserts into the keyhole. That key is in the palm of my hand"  -Master of the Hellish Yard song

5. Nemesis has the Black Box. (See above quote about Golden Key)

6. Hellish has the Black Box. "  There is a rectangular black box before my eyes"  -Master of the Hellish Yard

7. Nemesis has Punishment. " ''The USE army's counterattack threw Elphegort into a dilemma, so Supreme Ruler Nemesis* spear-headed the investment into the secret development and production of a new weapon to combat them─dubbed "Punishment"." ''-Muzzle of Nemesis album book

8. Hellish has Punishment. "' If I insert this golden key, the entire story ends. The "boy" of the end is aimed at the forest, Its name is "Punishment"" -  Master of the Hellish Yard song 

9. Both of them fire it. " ''The forest in south-west Elphegort was completely scorched in the resulting experiments of the Punishment prototype." ''-Muzzle of Nemesis Album book, above quote for Hellish

10. Nemesis is aiming to destroy everything in Evillious. "'By the time the USE army liberated Lucifenia, it was too late; it was decided that Punishment would be aimed at countless throughout all of Evillious." - MoN Album Book

11. Hellish is aiming to destroy everything. "' Now I am become Death, the destroyer of all. This place that shouldn't have existed,  This blood-soaked Hell "Evillious" shall disappear" -Master of the Hellish Yard song 

You're expecting me to believe these highly specific items and events are carried and perpetrated by two different characters and assuming them the same character is FANON as opposed to CANON? 1&2) " The assassin became a dictator; when she fired "Punishment" " -MotHellY song. The whole time  MotHellY uses "I" and then specifically      at that line she says     she.

3&4) Alright, that part I do agree with showing a connection.

5&6/7&8) See my reply above to see my speculations on this black box and Punishment

10&11) I agree that part shows a connection

As I've seen before the thing is not whether Hellish=Nemesis, it's what causes/effects the merge will have on the articles. Preventing is better than Misinforming. We know how Akuno-P/Mothy loves to cause plot twists and we don't know what's in store. For example I'll use the Gumillia=Nemesis issue: Do you not want to prevent this? There are also many possiblities (pointed out by many users) that can happen as well about MotHellY:
 * There were a lot of connections and hints on Gumillia (VIII. The Sniper) was the assasin in TLR song
 * The wiki decided to lable it canon and add it to Gumillia's info, as well as add Gumillia to the TLR's page
 * Then the wiki thought about it carefully (a Mothy's tweet caused this) and decided to take that information down
 * Wrath song's out and Nemesis is actually the assasin in TLR
 * The demon of Wrath could have taken over Nemesis' body to become MotHellY
 * Nemesis is actually a brainwashed awakened vessel of Wrath
 * Gumillia is somehow (used by Mothy/Akuno-P to create a plot twist) the real MotHellY
 * If the vessel of wrath can shapeshift, what about when it awakens?
 * MotHellY really is Mothy's/Akuno-P's own personal AU verison of Nemesis, being a dictator of Hell.

Evils Theater wrote: Snip. Look at my reply to Octo's quote above^ for my take on TMoN (truth). Also how would it not get more messy with merging their pages? It would rise up the bulleted issues I've listed before. This would cause another debate and arguments whether what should be percived and what not, false info if Mothy/Akuno-P proves it wrong, and the merging itself (I don't think 2 character pages have been merged into one before-).

The information from the MotHellY song is also ambigious so why would the wiki fill in the gaps for Nemesis and not the others? The only information so far for MotHellY is MotHellY song and JoC appearance, she and Nemesis do no have a whole album- just 2 songs (assuming they are the same). And yes Gallerian was once known as Master of the Court, but because he literally was a judge at the Dark Star Court, but imo the "Masters" title means differently when talking about Sickle, MotC, MotGY, and MotHellishY as I've stated above.