Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-6192846-20140612134000/@comment-24526600-20140913162302

Octofan wrote: It's just that the idea going around here is that merging is "dangerous/risky" and not merging is as simple as "waiting for confirmation" but imo, we are going to input our new information and in doing so we have to make assertions both ways. I think it's a bit of both honestly. People are saying that merging is dangerous/risky AND they're saying that it's better to wait for confirmation rather than pointlessly jump the gun and risk being sorely mistaken. A bit of both.

That fan is going to assume this is the most accurate information and that the narrative not used is incorrect. This hypothetical fan isn't going to see this discussion thread and know that we didn't merge them because most of you just didn't want to touch them. For once,I agree. That fan IS going to assume that this information is accurate so it's better to stay our hand rather than make said hypothetical fan believe fanon just because a few select users couldn't have been more patient.

You are saying that Hellish is an entity that lived in the Hellish Yard (per JoC) and then came up to Evillious (per her song.) You are saying, to fans, that she is a parallel figure to Nemesis, but she isn't Nemesis. That is what you are doing by not merging but still adding info. It's fallacious to assume one assertion is more "fanon speculation" and is "safer" than the other. It is fallacious to say we are being faithful to the facts just by going with these assertions as opposed to those assertions. To be frank,that's just what you're interpreting. I'll probably stress on this point but....I completely agree with Abyss. The problem at hand isn't if Nemesis is MOTHellishY, it's if we should merge the pages based on no (pay attention to this word closely) CONCRETE evidence. Abyss absolutely has a point, at some point a reader just has to correct the dots but you can't just make assertions to an (incomplete) story and endorse them as the truth.

I, personally, believe that the "same" option is much more reasonable than the "parallels" option, and that it's even past the point of merely being fanon speculation. If you believe that the "parallels" narrative is more reasonable and actually believe in it, then okay. That's what we're actually debating. I don't think that we should put what's "reasonable" fanon, I think that we should put the actual plot.

But I disagree with the idea that "waiting" is just us being cautious when regardless we're making statements on the matter to the fans who come to the wiki. It's gonna be messy either way because these statements aren't stated in canon, they are just a logical extension of whatever stance we take. Mothy could confirm they are the same or not. Mothy could confirm they are not the same or not. And I agree that jumping the gun and posting fanon is being rash for no feasible reason.

tdlr; Due to the situation at hand, "not merging" doesn't mean "safer" or "more accurate." Merging them and stating in trivia we don't know certain things about Nemesis sounds as safe, if not safer, to me than not merging and asserting all these things—that most of you admit you don't even believe—is the case.

Not merging indeed doesn't mean "more accurate" indeed however,not merging based on (potential) fanon IS infallibly "safer".

It’s not about playing it safe or not, (because what's safe seems to be subjective) it’s about telling fans the narrative you think is true and is the most likely as a plot point.

It really isn't, it's about (good lord,I've said this too many times) jumping the gun for no apparent reason and posting fanon and brushing it off as: "WELP,IT CAN'T BE HELPED WE'LL JUST CHANGE IT THEN LA~DI~DA~"

If you believe Nemesis=Hellish is 90% likely then it is more reasonable to work with that then “Nemesis is not Hellish,” which is 10% likely. Not when it comes to posting (potentially) false information,no.

Again, by not merging the pages we are asserting it is FACT that they aren't the same person, that this is CANON when it is, by what I'm seeing, a HEADCANON people are using as the reason to not merge pages given all the evidence at hand. There is no way to put in all the info without doing one or the other. That is how I've been seeing it.

Now THIS, is subjective. A) Not necessarily saying that it's canon that Nemesis=/=MOTHellishY. B)From what I can understand,you're saying that it's better to spread (POTENTIALLY) false information rather than take a passive stance.

To use your argument; give me proof, give me a mothy quote, show me the reference, tell me what proves they are two different people and that the Hellish song isn’t correlating with the information of the album booklet. To my knowledge there's just JoC, which mothy himself has made unreliable, and Capriccio Farce, which has misrepresented another character in the past. No, YOU give US proof. You can't say with 100% certainty that Nemesis=Hellish or else we wouldn't have been having this whole debate/argument/whatever. All what you've got going for you is *HINT HINT KEYWORD* circumstantial evidence, with nothing to irrefutably say that Nemesis is MOTHellishY. I'll also remind you that this point the argument isn't if Nemesis=MOTHellishY, it's "do you want the pages to be merged based on no decisive evidence?".

Tell me why it is more reasonable to say Hellish is a separate person who did all these things separate and the same from Nemesis than it is to say Nemesis did all these things and was perceived as/declared herself Hellish. As somebody who comes to the wikia for accurate information, I don't want what's "reasonable" I want what's "accurate".