Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-6192846-20140612134000/@comment-6192846-20140911175800

Coppélia wrote: 1. Meh, what’s the rush with merging their pages? You would also have to go in depth on how exactly are you going to combine the two (I would like to hear this). If you've read my post, you've seen the comparison for the two characters (if looked at separately). The merge wouldn't affect much in ways of information. The biggest impact would probably be the removal of JoC's perception of the encounter between "Hellish" and Gallerian, should we go by the song labels and assume Muzzle portarys the true events while JoC portrayed skewed or incorrect events (just like the DoE/SoE labels).

Coppélia wrote: Why not give MotHellY the same treatment as the other Masters. Has Clockworker’s Doll&MotC, Bancia&MotGY, Irregular&MotHeavenlyY been merged as one? Also pointed out in my post, there are differences in the situation for both. From what I could tell, the overall reasoning for keeping them separate was because of the ambiguity about the characters during that long stretch, combined with a lack of clarity on whether something else went into play (ie, Is Irregular/MotG just Banica/Allen or a kind of reincarnation of them?). That's what I understood the motivation to be for that sentiment.

In this case, we're dealing with two characters that (when put side by side) are doing the same actions (in summary), associated with one another, and their actions cause a significant effect on a third party (Gallerian Marlon) where the third party's original perception has two contextual pieces of evidence putting his perception of events into doubt.

Coppélia wrote: Aside from that, we don’t know when and how exactly did Nemesis become MotHellY, the missing link needed to connect their pages (without it, this could get messy). I say MotHellY's page should be filled with info about the MotHellY song, but no more than that. Same with Nemesis and the booklet information, just how it is exactly stated in the booklet (no adding MotHellY/ indirect info). What you're saying has equal, if not more chance of getting messy. As my previous reply states, we'll have two characters who were assassins that became dictators, created super weapons dubbed "Punishment", destroy a forest (Millennium Tree Forest), and plan to destroy Evillious with their weapon. On top of which, we're putting Gallerian through two reptitions of the same basic event.

What reader's not going to scratch their head and wonder what makes those two different? Allen ---> Irregular can be seen as simply a continuation of the other with an unknown gap in between. Hellish and Nemesis can't.

And then there's the use of "become" this Master. There's no need to specify the when if we don't know it (and that's assuming she "became" something different than herself). Using my above examples and my previous post, there's nothing outside of JoC indicating there's an actual guardian of the underworld with that name in existence.

And before you pull up the lyrics, the Japanese are referencing a translation from Sanskrit that was translated into English using an archaic grammar mechanic: "I am become Master of the Hellish Yard" is essentially just "I am the Master of the Hellish Yard".

You're also putting the Hellish song in a vaccuum and not considering it in context to what it was released with: the Muzzle album. Are we to not assume Girl Went Mad refers to Nemesis either? It's not explicit!! No. The Muzzle PV supports it and the album essentially goes in a reverse order chronologically (up til reaching the ambiguous BSS and confirmed non-Evillious song, Watching Us).

We got a booklet leading up to the very first song in the album (Hellish) and its events, followed by Muzzle, TLR, and Girl Went Mad. We have tons of context supporting it. The only point of contention that's the subject of everyone's debate is JoC, which (a) the song labels in mothy's playlist and (b) the Muzzle PV indicate is a skewed perception.

Coppélia wrote: Also a few points/questions I would like to mention and hear some opinions owo\ 1) Why would the theater inhabitants allow a weapon to blow up their forest when it operates inside said forest? Nemesis also seems to be abandoned by said mother she shows respect to so who knows if she's even aware (or still loyal to) said mother is in that forest.
 * (Nemesis=MotHellY) Nemesis is quite loyal to her mother, but why wouldn't she give Ma the key she desperately   needs?
 * Just a note, don't take it seriously unless you want to* All the Masters seem to literally own what they are masters of (not metaphorically). MotGY has her own Graveyard, MotC has her own Court room, MotHeavenlyY has his own Heavenly Yard/Heaven (Sickle-wise), and what about MotHellY? If she's Nemesis then what about the Hellish Yard?
 * In Capriccio Farce, MotHellY's profile is:"The girl that was wearing a mask whom Gallerian Marlon met after his death". It seems that CF is siding on Gallerian's approch on JoC. ''

2) Correction: Two Masters do. Master of the Hellish Yard song answers your question: "I am become Master of the Hellish Yard, destroyer of this Hell" and "This Hell, Evillious, shall disappear". The song makes a strong allusion comparing Evillious to Hell. The Master of the Hellish Yard (if indeed it's guardian of Hell for the wicked), is invoking "punishment" upon her domain. That's what I am seeing.

3) All those profiles are recapping previous information provided. Little of it was anything new or extending beyond what was already provided.

Coppélia wrote: 4. Up until now it seems pretty much canon, but Mothy did say it "didn't have any meaning". To be fair, the translation can also be "didn't have any significance". It's definitely vague and has put us in a rut. I feel safe assuming it is indeed canon at this point, but I can understand others sentiments.

Misstress of the heavenly yard wrote: I've told you she doesn't turn into mothelly, gallerian was hallucinating. She alter takes the alias because  she rules most of evillious and equates it with hell That's an awful argument to make as it's clearly wrong. The booklet makes it clear that Nemesis and Elphegort were on the loosing end of the war. They occupied Lucifenia and were getting screwed over by the USE, hence why Punishment was developed in the first place. Controlling 1/3 of Evillious is not most and certaintly not close to equating to all.

Mangoshakekouhai wrote: But who knows? The problem in this case is we don't know if it's really just a Lady Hitler or Satan. Until we can truly tell Nemesis is MOTHellishY or not, we can't assume anything on risk of fanon. The subject is similar to The Last Revolver, in which we couldn't assume anything because there was nothing connecting it to Evillious at the time. Now that's almost as bad an argument. The Last Revolver and this song are in extremely different situations. Before Muzzle, what canon info corraborated context to the song being Evillious connected? None. That was my main drive to declaring we'd remove it from our articles. It was all circumstantial at best.

This song's not in that same vaccuum. It's got an entire album backing it with context: The booklet, the Muzzle PV, the other songs, the playlist labels, etc. The situations can't be compared.