Board Thread:Theories Discussion/@comment-25886565-20150116003320/@comment-6192846-20150116023035

Octofan wrote: Gammon explicitly states the Servants are not H & G and wonders where they wound up. To back this up:

"By the way, the Servants who make a ruckus in the theater are phantom bodies created by the residual wills that dwell in the Glass of Conchita, copies based on Hansel and Gretel."

Heavenly Yard has also thrown out the term "copies" in reference to H&G's reincarnations, citing their lack of resistance to Banica's will being potentially due to being "degrading" copies made by humans.

Banica still has them with her when she is collected by Gallerian (EC 980-983). This is long after Nemesis should've been abandoned and left hearing (seemingly) H&G's voices (Nemesis would be 16 by 980 and is already daddy's hitman by early 982).

What's happening with H&G at this point is impossible to say.

GreekTelepath wrote: I'd like to think that the Master of the Hellish Yard is an actual figure in Levin religion, and Gallerian just imagined Nemesis to be them. Sort of like looking at a guy who looks like Jesus and imagining him in Jesus' clothes. This has been implied already in Praeludium. Kyle outright cites the "Master of the Hellish Yard" in his bravado to Germaine. Levin's the obvious backing.

GreekTelepath wrote: And if how Gallerian saw Nemesis really was her demon transformation... Why would Nemesis need one, anyway? She's already the most powerful person in Evillious thanks to Punishment. She doesn't need a demon transformation, in the same way that Riliane didn't need one either. What would be mothy's purpose in introducing us to a demon transformation if it's unlikely to come up at any future point in the series? We have no confirmed portrayal of Nemesis post-Muzzle so it's hard to say on that front. I take more issue with the idea she would have a demon transformation that doesn't actually transform her.

As demonstrated in Muzzle (labeled as the "truth" on for the civil war), Nemesis approaches Gallerian as just herself. No wings or cloaks or anything.

GreekTelepath wrote: As for Hansel and Gretel, I think at least a part of their souls are still in the Moonlit Residence. Their reincarnations are described as "degrading copies", so that's an indication that Hansel and Gretel's original souls are somewhere (which only Nemesis knows, if we are to trust the album booklets). To illustrate that:

"In the first place, the Servants did not seem to resist much. He wonders if due to the passage of time, they also seem to have disposed of their already forgotten reason of existence. Since they were made by humans, he wonders if their limitations are because they are only degrading copies."

It's clearly stating H&G themselves are the "degarading copies" due to being made by humans, not their reincarnations. Their reincarnations are probably the impicit cause of the "degrading" part, all the same. H&G's souls have been with Banica since being merged.

PrincessAcedia wrote: This is kind of off topic but relates to Hansel and Gretel's souls leaving the glass. Could the H & G's character pages be rewritten to say that the Servants are just imprints of Hansel and Gretel and the actual souls are elsewhere because Ney's page outright says

" Ney's absorption into the Glass of Conchita led directly to the Female Servant's existence. They shared the same soul..."

It just seems the way it was written that the souls are still in the Glass of Conchita and became the Servants, or I'm probably just not understanding how it all works. It depends on how you define "residual wills". H&G are referred to as the "servants" in HY and have been degrading. Now that they're merged with the glass, they're completely subservient to Banica, it would seem. This is apparently still the case as of EC 980-983, which should be past the time Nemesis was hearing their voices whilst abandoned.

By the time MotG and the Servants pop up in EC 990s is where it's ambiguous. Gammon's calling them copies based on their residual wills. What does that mean?

H&G fused with Levia-Behemo fragments and were still themselves, from what we can tell. Did the same happen with the Servants except the fragments became the beings? Does a soul piece work the same as the soul itself?

Either way, the article should be vague on the extent of the H&G incarnations they are. We know too little about H&G and this period in particular to properly define it.