Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-6192846-20140612134000/@comment-10608690-20140916211122

I would like to start off by saying that if you are going to be commenting on this thread, read the other replies first and then post your resolve. I have seen many users just start repeating the same arguements that have already been covered. This thread is not for reptition, it is for a logical debate. Many points have been ignored either by biased reasons, hasn't been read, or simply because the reader choses not to acknowledge it. If other users are taking their time to read and reply to your post, do your part and do the same. Remember that the thread starts from Servant of Evillious's proposal to the last comment on this thread.

Also I might be copy/pasting my former replies to these new ones since they don't want to read

GreekTelepath wrote: So, you're suggesting that we wait for the Wrath novel to make changes? Who knows when the Wrath novel will be released. And again, where is it explicitly stated that Irregular was the Master of the Heavenly Yard? If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't said anywhere, people just made the logical assumption given that according to Ichika's illustration, Heavenly is a Len character who is in the same timeline as the theater inhabitants. No, not until the Wrath novel shows up. Maybe the V. Pierrot novel might clear up information about "Santa" and "VIII. Sniper", this way we can also get Gumillia out of the bag.

GreekTelepath wrote: Mangoshakekouhai wrote: Snip It's stated in Irregular's article trivia that he's the Master of the Heavenly Yard: We didn't need a novel/short story/whatever to clarify that Irregular = Heavenly. We just made a logical assumption and added the info to the article. My point is, can't we do the same with Nemesis and Hellish? I personally didn't agree or know when/who labled Irregular "Master of the Heavenly Yard", but then again "a picture speaks a thousand words". Even by that assumption being made, the wiki didn't necessarily state in his article that he is MotHeavenlyY, it is just added as trivia.
 * In an illustration in Evils Court of the different "Masters", Irregular is labeled as the Master of the "Heavenly Yard"; interestingly, this name is shared with title attributed to Sickle, the god of creation.

DemonDamian wrote: In my opinion, not doing anything can also spread misinformation of two crazy identical women who fire two separate weapons named the same that do the exact same thing (scorching a forest) within the same timeframe. It's not "safe" to say they are different people, as it will only make people confused. If she's in posession of both the Black Box firing device and the Golden Key, she's Nemesis. Gallerian was also called "Master of the Court", and he wasn't a magical being, awakened Sin Vessel or god by any stretch of the word.

As to the questions, I vote yes on the merge (which means that, yes, Hellish and Nemesis are connected :P), having Gallerian's encounter with Hellish be his perception of MoN's events, and yes to the Nemesis poem being canon, as to it having a page, due to it having been posted by Twits and not on a document, I don't think it should have one.... How would that be spreading false information? The wiki would just be adding confirmed information to each article. Nemesis' page is basically finished (already has TLR,TMoN, and booklet info), only MotHellY would be detailed with the vague information gotten by the MotHellY song. Also the article wouldn't be directly stating that Nemesis and MotHellY are two completely different people. For trivia it can be added "Nemesis and MotHellY could possibly be the same person" and a brief explaination, for those who cannot clearly see the connections and would get "confused".

For the reasons in my 1st statement I will be repeating my former reply on "black box and keys" and "Leviantia Civilwar truth"
 * We all know the Masters have always had something special about them. MotC/MotGY are both awakened vessels with demon powers, welp we all know about Sickle's abilities, and what about MotHellY? Are you telling me she is probably a mere human who's playing dicator? Nemesis is a 7DS sinner, she relies on the vessel of Wrath to give her control over Punishment. And yes Gallerian was once known as Master of the Court, but that's because he was literally a judge at the Dark Star Court, but imo the "Masters" title means differently when talking about Sickle, MotC, MotGY, and MotHellishY..
 * Ok so Mothy labled TMoN "Levianta Civil War (truth)". I'm guessing you're going to use that to say that Gallerian was hallucinating the MotHellY thing after all? Right, because Mothy meant that TMoN was telling the truth. So I guess that also means Nemesis must really be the daughter of Gallerian and Ma (100% love affair).

205.202.120.22 wrote: I think people keep forgetting that the Muzzle of Nemesis was labeled as the truth to what occured in the Levainta Civil War. It shows us that Gallerian's perception to the truth is not. There are so much eveidence pointing to Gallerian not being the most sane character of all. It's not irrational that he'd have mixed perception of what actually had occured. The man thinks a two foot doll is his daughter. His view of things is not that creditable.

I don't think it's logical to have two pages. Two characters who were assasins who became dicators, who had two golden keys, who had two black boxes and who fired it into. Some of you keep asking it's unknown how Nemesis It's not really playing it safe. Doesn't it seem ridiculous to basically put the same information on the same page? I don't think mothy would ever have two characters that ridiculously parallel that way. It makes no sense. "Two" people trying to destroy the world with the very same actions occuring at the same time? Seems a bit far-fetched.

There's so many signs pointing to Nemesis being Master of the Hellish Yard, the only contradiction we have here is JoC which is stated to not be the truth of what happened. I haven't heard yet an actual point that helps

We've perceived a lot of things in the past from information. There's no where explictly stating Nemesis killed Michelle yet there's that information on her page. There's no where stating that Irregular is Master of the Heavenly Yard yet there's that information on his page. If we're going to disapprove of Nemesis being Master of the Hellish Yard, we might as well disapprove of everything else too just because it doesn't say so. This is the same argument you posted eariler, and for this one I will not copy and paste because it's literally right above your head^ reply to DemonDamian. Also Bany's conclusion basically covers my stance in this "Gallerian is completely wrong and the dictator Nemesis who wants to blow everything up is completely sane, we should trust her".

Hey, if we are going to merge Nemesis and MotHellY, then we should also merge everyone else who is the "same person". Forget MotGraveY, she was actually Conchita! We have novel and song information supporting this!

Evils Theater wrote: Whoopsies. That anon above was me and it seems like I didn't write my reply in full and with a few mistakes since I was rushing earlier and forgot to login. I'm going to fix a few of those now. - Two characters who were assasins who became dicators, who had two golden keys, who had two black boxes and who fired it into the forest. Some of you keep asking it's unknown how Nemesis become Master of the Hellish Yard when we have Gallerian a human himself claim title of "Master of the Court." Nemesis could be doing the same thing.

--It's not really playing it safe. Doesn't it seem ridiculous to basically put the same information on the two other pages? I feel like that itself is confusing and misleading.

- I haven't heard yet an actual point that helps support that contradiction besides JoC itself which was proven to not be the truth.

And going back to those last few points I made, sometimes here in the wiki we go off things by context. Sometimes when the text isn't that blantantly clear we rely on the text around it to help move in the most logical direction.

Most plot twists we've seen in these series aren't from what was clearly seen but more so slight and very tiny clues that no one could have sensed otherwise. I think the plot twist here was as other have mentioned to be that Master of the Hellish Yard is Nemesis. It's not a satanic guardian of the underworld but rather a woman that dictates over Evillious and wants to destroy the hell its become. Do I have to repeat myself again?

1) The Black box is suppose to contain Irregular aka "Punishment" but how on earth did she turned him into a weapon/bomb, and how did she get it if it's supposedly inside MotC/ Clockworker's Doll who lives inside Evil's Theater, which is located inside the forest she destroyed? Also why would Sickle put such a danergous weapon inside a black box that can be opened by a demon's vessel? This is what's starting to get me questioning this black box and "Punishment". Also didn't Kirill have a black box as well?It's been proven before with Kayo's scissors that vessel replica's are possible.

2) Yes Gallerian was once known as Master of the Court, but that's because he was literally a judge at the Dark Star Court, but imo the "Masters" title means differently when talking about Sickle, MotC, MotGY, and MotHellishY. This is my opinion and your "Nemesis only calimed the title" is yours, are these opinions canon? Alright so let's apply your opinion to the articles!

-- Oh but it is safe! How is it misleading when you are adding info as how the booklet/song has stated, no more and no less. They aren't completely the same and how would this lead to a Gumillia=Nemesis thing? So you would rather have that possiblity of spreading false information?

-- So Gallerian was so mad that everything in JoC never happened, not the trais, not the people's rage, no daughter at all? The thing is that we don't know what exactly happened in JoC and what caused the "delusions" you speak of. This is why we shouldn't assume and ignore all of Gallerian's words.

Yes the wiki goes by context and assumptions have to be made, but we are merging two pages base on them! Are you forgetting that most of the truth we get are from the novels and not songs. Assumptions on songs always lead to wiki disasters, which is why when writing about the song is always kept vague.

How do you know there will be no more plot twists? Usually plot twists are revealed in the novels. Just look at every 7DS sinner and tell me that we are not excepting a plot twist! Sati was a deformed child and has HER, Bancia had a undead army and had HER running through her bloodline, and Margarita is actually Eve. Song info assumptions are always over turned.

Mangoshakekouhai wrote: With Evil's clarification, the current decision leans more on merging. If I remember correctly, Servy said earlier that the final decision is tommorow, Wednesday. Unless the no merge side has anything else to say, it's likely we're going to merge the pages. Is this final?

And where are we gonna put Gally's hallucination of Hellish? I'm not so sure what will we do with JoC's chapter 4... Will we still put this on Nemesis's/Hellish's page, or are we gonna put it nly on Gally's page, or...? So we are going to ignore the majority against the merge and stick with merging? What was the point of this thread then.

92.57.77.148 wrote: Some people have sugested that merging the pages is spreading "false information" to fans who find this wiki. However, I'd like to make one point perfectly clear: we are going to be spreading "false information" either way. Both options (they are the same, we merge and they are different people, we don't merge) aren't canon 100%, so there is no "safe" option. However, if we take into account the Occam's Razor (as i said earlier), the most logical asumption is that they are the same. Please read other replies anon, I've mentioned how it won't be spreading false info a million times. Forget prevention and let's use assumption!

Let's not bring in Gift thread stuff here.